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Post by Scott on Oct 28, 2010 18:12:56 GMT -7
Speaking specifically about the NR's Extra Gain...When speaking about the NR Model: The Dr. mentions on his DVD, that by removing the Reverb, we found that we were able to boost the front end up a bit, to give the amp a little bit more gain. Also: ztalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=xperts&action=display&thread=35802The Maz Jr. R is wired differently than the NR and won't be the NR. Does anybody know if boosting the front end up could just be a biasing thing, or are there actual hardware differences involved in the NR's extra gain? I'd like the specifics... Thanks!
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Oct 28, 2010 18:18:00 GMT -7
This comes up all the time here - but I don't think anyone has taken the trouble of analyzing both to see what the differences are. Obviously you'd have to own both to do that...
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Post by Scott on Oct 28, 2010 18:20:16 GMT -7
The 'Wired differently' comment caught my eye. Ya think that's literal, or just figuratively speaking? Or trade secret!!
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Post by Albert on Nov 7, 2010 12:12:43 GMT -7
Wired different sure but one should be able to bypass the input signal from the reverb circuit with a switch or hardwire and gain some gain ;D has anyone tried it ?
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Post by teleric on Nov 7, 2010 14:56:57 GMT -7
The "wired differently" I would chalk up to having additional circuitry in the path (for the reverb) - extra resistors, caps, and traces that suck a little gain out of the circuit.
Sorta like the tone stack bypass mod. One would think diming the tone controls would have the same effect as bypassing the tone stack, but since there is some extra circuitry for the pots & such, diming the tones & TSBM produce different results. I'd guess the Rev/NR is the same way.
Bias has little to do with it as that's post-PI output stage mojo. The gain difference between Rev/NR is all in the preamp stage, I think.
I was also thinking that some of the difference could be that the Reverb version takes up one half of a 12AX7 triode for the reverb send (and uses the 12AT7 for Rev return). But that can't be right as the Reverb version has an additional 12AX7 tube in the preamp stage (presumuably for reverb send). Which then begs the question why the Reverb version doesn't have more gain than the NR version since it has an extra triode to work with in the gain stage (is only one triode of the extra 12AX7 used for the reverb send?? - if so there's an extra triode left for an additional gain stage). Hmmmmmmm.....I'd guess the extra circuitry sucks up the additional gain of the extra triode (just thinkin' out loud here).
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Post by Scott on Nov 7, 2010 18:35:20 GMT -7
Great thoughts at that. I think there might be a trivia fact about the NR's extra gain, that I would love to know.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Nov 7, 2010 19:13:52 GMT -7
I have not done a lot of circuit design, but I've been around it long enough to know that for every design there are tradeoffs. I have watched engineers go through a process whereby they say, "I really want this circuit to have this feature, but if I design it like that, then this other negative pops up over here. I have to change this slightly to compensate for that." With that in mind, I can envision Dr. Z designing the reverb model and making whatever design decisions he had to make to get a great amp. Then, when he stripped out those circuits, being free to alter other aspects of the design that were impacted by having those circuits there. Maybe impedance loading changes. Maybe gain factor changes. Maybe adjusting the tone circuit. Who knows? But the point is, the two designs are not identical except for the reverb. They are two different amp designs, that happen to be very similar except the reverb. This is all totally speculation on my part as I have no firsthand knowledge of any of this, and there is even a strong likelihood that the Doc hisownself will clear the air, but it all seems reasonable to my pea brain anyhoo.
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Post by Scott on Nov 8, 2010 1:08:21 GMT -7
Thanks for the post Steve...
"The point is, the two designs are not identical except for the reverb. They are two different amp designs, that happen to be very similar except the reverb".
I tend to now accept this as a truth in the universe, although understood unconfirmed.
That is a new way of thinking about the two models for me. I simply believed you just added 2 more preamp type tubes in to the signal path, along with a reverb tank.
Probably a much too simplistic view of all the variables taken into consideration, when dealing with circuit/amp design.
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Post by Albert on Nov 8, 2010 7:27:53 GMT -7
Steve hit it on the nose when he said their are trade offs in circuit design that's why there are some many variations in circuits some sound better to us and some sound just bad... is reverb better than no reverb ? to each his own I say ...In my Lightning Clone my first 12ax7 is wired in parrallel thus giving it more gain but the trade off is a little noise at higher gains this may be the way it's implemented in the NR Design but without having on to look at I can't be for sure..if someone wants to post a pic of a NR Version might be able to tell from that ;D
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Post by Mostrummer on Nov 8, 2010 8:01:59 GMT -7
To quote brother Phil: "The first thing I have to say is that the reverb models and NR's are very different to my ears. The MAZ JR NR has more gain and slightly more volume than the reverbed model. The 38 NR has split load biasing and has more bass than the reverb model, along with more gain and more harmonics." Read more: ztalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lounge&action=display&thread=34788#ixzz14hfMwD8MThis was said about the 38, but may apply to the 18 as well
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Post by Scott on Nov 8, 2010 16:02:28 GMT -7
Love the leg work you did there, compiling Phil's reviews... MAZ
ztalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=maz18&action=display&thread=806
I can't speak to the drummer issue, but I did just spend a day yesterday at my nearest Z dealer comparing the MAZ38 SR NR, 18JR, and 18JR NR through a Z-Best 2X12. I had been wanting a MAZ for a couple of years, but CountryShawn and JChance's clips (and the clips on Z's site) pushed me over the edge. After hearing the sound clips and talking to a few of my trusted Z advisors, I was thinking that I was going to like the 38 better for its clean sounds, fullness and low end. I loved the 38, and thought it sounded like the best Voxish Super Reverb or Twin Reverb that I'd ever heard. However, it was also immediately clear that I preferred the Jr for my first "MAZ" purchase (I'll get the 38 later!). If you read carefully about the Jr vs. the Sr, it's all true. The Jr has more focus, is more "in your face", and is more "raw". The Sr does have more low end and a ton of headroom. What does this mean in the real world? I had to hear it to make sense of it. The best way I can describe it is that the Sr is "too polite", if anything. It has beautiful clean sounds, and a great smooth overdrive, but even with the "cut" up the pick attack isn't as aggressive as the Jr. You know that aggressive sound that Vee got from his Rx on the "Idle Wise" clip posted in the "sounds" section? The Jr. when set right can get some of that. The Jr can also get great clean sounds, just not at the level of the Sr. Also, I found that my Stingray can cop some of the Sr. sound, but with even more harmonic complexity and "Voxiness". To me, the Jr. sounds sort of like a Ghia with a great overdrive pedal in front, but with more flexibility due to the master volume, cut control, and full tone control section. It's also a lot louder than my Ghia. After I decided on a Jr, I spent the rest of the afternoon A/B comparing the reverb model vs. the NR. The NR was the clear winner. The added gain and harmonic complexity of the NR was very noticeable.
PDW
ztalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Maz38&action=display&thread=1780
have posted about this a couple of times before. I recently spent the day testing MAZ Jr's, Jr NR's, and a Sr NR at the nearest dealer. To make a long story short, I believe that the Jr and the Sr. are very different beasts. There is a "family resemblance", but that's about where it ends. I plugged into the Sr NR first, and was blown away. It's not easy to impress me that much, either; I've got a, *ahem*, few Z's including one of the first Stingrays. I quickly decided that the Sr was a little too loud; but the power, sophistication, complexity, and low end were incredible. I then spent a lot of time comparing the reverb Jr vs. the NR. I loved the Jr. NR for it's attack, grit, flexibility and general attitude. I loved the Jr so much that I bought it. However, that beautiful Sr NR sound was stuck in my head so bad that I ordered a SR NR too. It's all Jayson Chance's fault! The overdrive that the Jr gets is more "in your face", as Jayson said, "snotty", and aggressive. The Sr is way louder, more complex, and the overdrive is more, as Z said, "satiny". The cool thing about the Sr is that (like the Jr) you can actually use the Master control to play at lower volumes and turn up the Cut control to add back the sparkle. But, with the "Volume" up on the Sr and the Master set over 11:00, it a thing of beauty (but LOUD). I'm just going to have to put up with the volume or get an Air Brake; it's just that good.
PDW
ztalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Maz38&action=display&thread=1767
The "new" MAZ38 SR and the "old" MAZ38 are almost not the same amp, in my opinion. I think the new SR is better in every way. The MAZ38 was a great amp; just ask Buddy W. The SR, however, is just as the Doctor describes it...."more" of everything. It has more harmonic complexity, slightly more gain, larger transformers for a wider bandwidth and better lows, the Maz Jr's phase inverter design, and no negative feedback. The master volume works so well on this amp for a reason- the "cut" control. I was always very skeptical of master volumes until I played the SR. Most amps get darker, colder, and generally less "fun" to play as you turn the master down. Not so on the SR (and MAZ JR too), because you can turn up the cut control and restore the lost sparkle and feel. Also, if you're leaning toward a MAZ, allow me to make one more recommendation: the NR (non-reverb) model. I recently had the chance to A/B test the NR vs. the reverb equipped model, and the NR has even "more" of all the good stuff- harmonic complexity, touch sensitivity, gain, low end, etc. If you need reverb or delay the NR has a built in effects loop. Plus, it's cheaper!
Good luck, PDW
ztalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Maz38&action=display&thread=23369
Everyone does hear differently and it also depends on your guitars, speaker cabs, room, etc.
I've got a two identical MAZ NR heads (including the preamp tubes and Muallard rectos ) made the same month: an 18NR and a 38NR. The thing you gotta remember is that comparing a MAZ 18 reverb to a MAZ 38 reverb is different than comparing a MAZ38 NR and an 18NR. The 38NR features split load biasing like the Mazerati which the 38 reverb model does not and that "stacks the deck" a little.
My MAZ 18 NR is a gainy little sucker; I run the master full up and the volume from 9:00 to noon. This gives a great hair-to crunchy sound with the guitar on 10 and a fantastic clean sound with the guitar on 6-7.
I set the controls identically. The MAZ 38 NR is a much more "sophisticated" sounding amp. It's about 3dB louder and has a lot more bass and impact. The picking transient is not quite as pronounced. The overdrive is smoother; not quite as "in your face". It sounds bigger. It still cleans up like the JR but the taper on the guitar's volume pot seems different- it doesn't react exactly the same as the Jr.
The Jr. is much more rewarding to play with my Grosh Retro Classic (or any Strat). I LOVE my SR NR, no doubt- but the gain structure on the SR is just different. MY SR NR with a reverb pedal or Z-Verb through a 2X12 will match any Twin Reverb. The Jr with a reverb pedal/Z-Verb is more like an incredible old Fender Deluxe Reverb or Vibrolux taken to another level- it's spankier and "quicker".
That's how I see the two. If you wanted that cool Deluxe Reverb/18 watt Marshall/ Vox AC15 sound you'd take the JR NR. If you need a great Twin Reverb/ Vox AC30 sound it's the SR.
As far as a gig situation there's a lot that goes in to "punching through". It's not always volume or highs that do the trick. It's as much art as science.
My #1 trick for cutting through is to reduce the gain and/or compression you're using.
ztalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Maz38&action=display&thread=21666
There's almost nothing I hate more than contradicting benntop, but...
I've got both the MAZ JR NR and SR NR, and both were made at almost the same time. They're tubed *identically*, including Mullard 5AR4's. I tried them both out at Willcutts, and after buying the JR I went back a week or two later and bought the SR. I just couldn't get that sound out of my head.
The first thing I have to say is that the reverb models and NR's are very different to my ears. The MAZ JR NR has more gain and slightly more volume than the reverbed model. The 38 NR has split load biasing and has more bass than the reverb model, along with more gain and more harmonics.
As far as the JR NR vs the SR NR, I think they are very different amps. The gain structure to me is different; I'm sure that's related to the MAZ's four output tubes, different transformer, and split load biasing. The JR is my go-to amp for Strats; it's "leaner" sounding, breaks up earlier, and when it does break up it's "grainier".
The 38NR has the ability to sound like a fat Twin Reverb with a good reverb unit and the right cab (like a Z-Best or 2X12 Z open back). It's got an authority to the low end that sounds like SRV; the JR does a great SRV like sound and has a fat, tight low end but the SR just slams. The 38's bass seems like it has a deeper reach, so to speak.
The SR's overdrive is smoother and throatier; the JR's is a little nastier and "bratty", as Jayson Chance once said. It's like the JR's overdrive is centered in a higher midrange frequency than the SR's.
The Jr also cleans up slightly differently when you roll the guitar's volume back. I play with my volume kit-equipped Grosh RC into my JR with the volume on "4" for quieter clean stuff, "7" for hairy cleans, and "10" for moderate breakup. The Sr is definitely different. The same guitar volume levels do not produce the same sounds, even if you change the SR's volume control settings to compensate for relative volume differences with the JR.
The bottom line for me is that if my JR broke and I had a gig and I wanted to get that great Jr "most fun amp I've ever played with a Strat" sound and I took my SR, it just wouldn't be the same. It's too thick and sophisticated sounding. More importantly it just doesn't feel the same.
Likewise, if I had a country gig or other gig where I needed that SR sophistication and clean headroom, and all I had was the JR, I could do it (especially) if I could mike the Jr, but it's still not quite the same thing.
I recently attended a gig with my friend Jon Stankorb's band (Pink Floyd tribute band) at a 400-seat venue where he used his MAZ 38 2x12 combo with about 6 pedals to get that "David Gilmour" sound, including running his lap steel through it. He was running both the master and volume knobs at 12:00. I don't think the JR would have sounded the same in those circumstances.
Get both Update:Also see Topic - Reverb vs. NR: ztalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=maz18&action=display&thread=36302Also... Topic: Maz 18 NR vs Maz 18 Reverb - Gain?ztalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=xperts&action=display&thread=38052
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Nov 8, 2010 18:21:02 GMT -7
Phil's final words: "Get both" - now that's what I'm talking about.
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