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Post by Hohn on Aug 7, 2006 10:31:01 GMT -7
It can happen again and it WILL-- eventually. You just have to live long enough.
They may be a good investment right now, but I don't buy guitars as investments-- aside from investing in my personal playing happiness.
Even if the nutzo prices of current Fenders comes crashing down, you know that it will recover again-- eventually. These things are cyclical, and it's just a matter of waiting for the pendulum to swing back the other way.
jh
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Post by nitehawk55 on Aug 7, 2006 10:51:22 GMT -7
Well I'm not trying to be the messanger of doom and gloom and I certainly hope I'm wrong and things do sort themselves out , the gas prices for one.....$1.15 per litre right now ( 3.8 litre = 1 US gallon , you do the math ) and now they are talking oil could go $200 a barrel ? Got to admit some of the relics look nice and those NASH built ones look amazing ! I'd just like to be able to play just one of my Strats enough to make my own relic . ;D
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Post by nitehawk55 on Aug 7, 2006 10:52:42 GMT -7
I always suspect the 'universe' is setting me up for a fall so I never gamble with my money. That's probably why I can't see retiring until at least age 66, not much risk, not much gain. Also I'm a scaredy cat! I'm with ya there Billy , I'll probably be 75 before I can retire !
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Post by tele1962 on Aug 7, 2006 11:44:40 GMT -7
The rate of return will change, but teh price of a house is not going to tank and be half or 2/3 of what it was today 10 years from now. It may not go up as fast, but supply side economics says that a '58 Fender Strat will never go back to $328.00 HSC incl.
This is a harsh reality. A re-issue Vibrolux that a person buys today is worth somewhat less tomorrow, and doesn't sound anything close to an original mid 60's Blackface. I own both an original '66 and a re-issue. It ain't close!
What's close are those new narrow panel tweed Twins. They're hand built, point to point wired amps with no corners cut in craftsmanship and quality. They sound pretty wonderful! But they depreciate upon purchase like a Kia automobile.
Why? 'Cause you can go out and buy another one JUST like it tomorrow. Supply side economics. The trick is just to be on the right side of it.
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Post by billyguitar on Aug 7, 2006 12:49:33 GMT -7
The nice thing about those Tweed Twins is they are available and they do sound good. They are actually a bargain used. If it wasn't for Zs I could see myself using one, with some upgraded tubes. $5k and up for an old one? You're lucky to ever see one let alone buy one.
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Post by Hohn on Aug 7, 2006 13:17:03 GMT -7
So if, God Forbid, Mike Z kicked the bucket tomorrow, we'd all be gozillionaires:)
For the record, I prefer him alive and making sweet amps....
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Post by hiftbso on Aug 7, 2006 14:40:54 GMT -7
As far as the new relics they are not for me, I don't get paying an extra grand to have someone beat the snot out of my guitar. And as the "real" relics are concerned I think the prices are out of control and a correction or crash is going to happen in the next 10 years. The driving force behind these prices is simple econimics but Supply is only half the story. Sure they arn't made anymore and there are less and less every year but you also have to look at the demand. All the holy grail Fender and Gibson gear 1950-60s era stuff is all tied to the Baby Boomers (who are also the biggest demographic in our country) They grew up with these guitars and therefor thier idea of what a guitar "should" be is closely tied to them. Currently these are also the peaple with the most money to pay the prices for them. Not many 30 year olds with 2 kids and a morgage can drop 30K on a Tele. So when these players start to drop out of the market ( and we will all drop out of the market one day!) the supply will increase becauce kids will sell that old guitar dad used to play and buy a car with the money. Also the real demand will most likely drop. A kid born in 1990 whose first album was Fall Out Boy is not going to grow up to and want the same tone as we all hear in our head. Sorry for the rant, I'll get off my soapbox now.
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Post by Hohn on Aug 7, 2006 15:16:08 GMT -7
Good post, H. Well spoken and I think your words will prove prophetic...
+1
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Post by billyguitar on Aug 7, 2006 15:16:29 GMT -7
I've heard another theory that when the gen-xers get the money then they will buy. Boy, they better get a LOT of money, at least for the forseeable future. I just looked on www.musictoyz.com and a Nash reliced Strat is only $1,475. That's not all that much more money than a new guitar. If you want that look (which is also a valid point of view) why not have one? My question to people that don't like relics (it's a valid opinion you have also, I believe) is who's going to play one guitar long enough and hard enough to get that kind of wear now? I've got a feeling that those old guitars with so much wear came from a time when a guy only had one guitar and played it 6 nights a week. Guitars are relatively cheaper now and more are available so it's really easy to get another just because a guy wants one. I don't think it was that easy in the 1950's or '60s.
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Post by jwr on Aug 7, 2006 15:38:57 GMT -7
Billy, you should see my beat up Les Paul! You've got a point, I own 5 electric guitars and I'm not close to being done. I've got many more to buy, but the price tag on a Relic doesn't equal it's playability in my opinion. Most of those guitars need to go to a good luthier and have work done to them to really play well. What's that about? If I spend that much money on a PRS it plays like a dream! I've had my McCarty for 3 years now and it hasn't needed a setup or anything yet. I just polish frets and change strings, that's it. I've yet to even buy a Fender guitar, I buy Warmoth. I feel they are a better guitar in the end, but I can understand why guys want a Fender. The resale value is higher, but I never look at my guitars as investments, they are much more than that to me.
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Post by tele1962 on Aug 7, 2006 17:02:05 GMT -7
I have to disagree with the young guys not being clued in and married to tone that's currently trendy. I thought this would happen too, but now there's this fever with guys in their early 20's to buy original VERY good sounding old equipment.
I have evidence. I recently sold a 1963 one owner Strat ( not mine, and stupid big money) and it didn't go to a collector. A guy in his mid 20's got dad to help him, and bought in for pure love of tone, and investment. A 60's blackface amp that I was toying with selling has had offers that are very very serious from predominantly young men. The older guys want it too, but want it for "cheap"! The younger guys have it figured out. Henry Garza was saying it the other day... " when I get (in a position) like some of these older players, I'm gettin' me some real old tone!" I don't think Henry's that old.
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Post by hiftbso on Aug 7, 2006 19:21:43 GMT -7
who's going to play one guitar long enough and hard enough to get that kind of wear now?
I guess I'll answer your question with a question, Why would you want a guitar with that kind of wear? Personaly I like new things or cool old things that still look new. My dislike for relics has nothing to do with them being destressed by hand, I just do not like scratches, dents, and paint chips period. I've played dozens of custom shop relic and closet classic Fenders a few in the $10,000-15,000 masterbuilt range (the new Jeff Beck Esquire for one) and I can honestly say that (for me) none of them play or sound as good as my off the shelf Anderson but that is just my opionion. As far as younger players that are into vintage gear and "good" tone I agree there are young guys into that stuff but they are the exception and not the rule. I bet if you had the numbers on all the 50s and 60s strats sold last year 95% of the buyers would be over 55. And for every 25 year old out there with a nice 62 strat there are 5000 other ones that play an ESP or Schecter (and love their tone too).
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Post by billyguitar on Aug 7, 2006 19:41:47 GMT -7
I've got two Andersons and a Lentz on the way. I fully appreciate a quality guitar. I do not own a relic, maybe never will. But like I said in an earlier post, I look at a relic the same as I would any other finish choice. It's just a look to me, and some look bad, but some look good. I can not stand nicks on the back of a neck, and I'm not real crazy about the rusty hardware but I do think some look pretty cool. This is a funny subject. Like Liberals and Conservatives the two sides will never see the other's point. I think this is fun!
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Post by jwr on Aug 7, 2006 19:50:18 GMT -7
It is fun to hear both sides. Some do look really cool. I had no idea some of those instruments where going for $10,000-$15,000 Way out of my price range! Jason
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Post by billyguitar on Aug 8, 2006 4:59:21 GMT -7
$10K to $15K - well that is silly.
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Post by hiftbso on Aug 8, 2006 7:12:33 GMT -7
The last time I was in Midtown Music in Atlanta, looking for a Tele, I was checking out some of their relics and the first guitar I picked up did look cool and played very well, but when I looked at the tag $8999.00 WOW. It was a Masterbuilt guitar and I can't remember by who. To me it was a very nice guitar but not worth that kind of money. Most of their custom shop Fenders were in the normal $3000-$4000 range and I don't really know why some were double and triple that. I guess because of who built them. That is also where I played the Jeff Beck guitar. I never saw one before and I just picked it up and and started playing it. I soon saw the price wasn't $1500.00 but $15,000.00 at first I was suprised they had those guitars just sitting out on the sales floor but really I guess they don't have to worry someone is going to put a scratch on it. It already looks like it was drug behind a truck.
Billy I like what you said about it being like just another finish choice. I agree, everyone likes something different and it's kind of like debating "what's your favorite color?" but it is cool to see where everyone is coming from.
In the end it's the music that counts so whatever inspires you to play your best I say go for it.
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Post by billyguitar on Aug 8, 2006 8:11:15 GMT -7
$15K, $9K, those are stupid prices. If they are 1/2 the price of a real one why buy a fake? When a relic is 10% to 25% the cost of a real one then I understand. Fender's starting to get a Gibson attitude.
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Post by tele1962 on Aug 10, 2006 16:40:54 GMT -7
EXACTLY Billy! I paid less than those numbers for 3 out of the 4 old "real" relics I have. A '55, a '58, and two 1962's. When reliced guitars or re-issued equipment starts being close to half of the real McCoy, then things have truly gotten stupid.
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Post by jwr on Aug 10, 2006 16:48:39 GMT -7
Billy mentioned the Nash guitars. I got to play one a couple weeks ago and I liked it but NOT because of the way it looked. I just really liked the way the guitar played and sounded. It was one of the best "Fender" strats I've ever heard, and completely affordable. If they all play and sound that way, I would be willing to pay $1500.00 for a Nash any day.
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Post by Telemanic on Aug 16, 2006 13:22:07 GMT -7
Ive got a first year RW neck 60' relic, and i'll tell ya i didnt buy it because it "looked" old or beat up. I DO like the fact that it feels extremely broken in, like an old pair of tennis shoes! And it sounds very close to a gaggle of original early 60's i a/b'd it with. Again i bought it based on how it sounded and felt, not because it was trying to replicate the "look". I really dont care that its a little beat looking, in fact i often prefer that. Would i pay extra for it being pre-beat if thats all it had goin? ...... No. I bought it used in 97' for $1400.00, and consider that a reasonable price for a quality strat. I dont think they should be necessarily discriminated against for the relic thing, mine is just simply the best non original strat ive played. I do agree tho that everything has a limit as far as value, I to just recently became aware that some of the relic lines are up to 10-15K !!! That, I'm not afraid to post my friends, is rediculous! There are simply too many other guitars of as good and BETTER quality, for WAY, WAY less! As far as set up quality, i would add that while a guitar in the relic range, definately should not have any "problems", the actual playability is quite personal and subjective, and very few guitars ive owned, were set up right for me off the shelf, including high end models. I'm not a fender snob either, and do find a great many, have a really **** set up goin on, even considering subjectivity. Fender should definately work on improving that area and at least shoot for some middle ground set up, but do it precisely! One of the reasons i love my original Reverends! Cool guitars!!
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Post by billyguitar on Aug 16, 2006 14:10:24 GMT -7
In my business I sell a workman for $65.00 per hour. Say that Strat or Tele was a $1,000 guitar. That means my workman could spend 138 hours on it before I hit the $10,000 mark. That's 3-1/2 weeks nonstop. No way they spend 1/2 that time on one, or a 1/4th. No matter how much markup there is on retail those guitars are a BAD deal for the consumer.
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nickg
Full Member
Posts: 140
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Post by nickg on Aug 16, 2006 14:33:05 GMT -7
My opinion is that people buy guitars for many reasons, and one of those is usually the look (though in most people's eyes, this is second in importance to sound or playability).
I think how fender would justify it would be by saying that so many people buy guitars with pretty finishes that do nothing to help, if not downright worsen, the sound. Look anywhere in a big guitar store and you'll see eye-catching finishes.
This is because guitars were made to look nice, in most respects. Otherwise we would all be playing bare-wood guitars with no (or very thin) finishes, as these make the guitar sound better by a fraction (no paint, more resonance, more sound). PLUS they would be less expensive, as finishing a guitar costs money, right? But no, 99.9% of people's guitars have finishes that probably have a (albeit very slight) detrimental effect on sound and cost more. That's how much looks mean to people in a guitar.
As i'm guessing most people on this forum would probably say that say, SRV's "number 1" strat, looked pretty cool, i ask that why is buying a relic any different from buying a guitar with a fancy finish??
Just my opinion.
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Post by hdahs143 on Aug 17, 2006 4:40:51 GMT -7
My opinion is that people buy guitars for many reasons, and one of those is usually the look (though in most people's eyes, this is second in importance to sound or playability). I think how fender would justify it would be by saying that so many people buy guitars with pretty finishes that do nothing to help, if not downright worsen, the sound. Look anywhere in a big guitar store and you'll see eye-catching finishes. This is because guitars were made to look nice, in most respects. Otherwise we would all be playing bare-wood guitars with no (or very thin) finishes, as these make the guitar sound better by a fraction (no paint, more resonance, more sound). PLUS they would be less expensive, as finishing a guitar costs money, right? But no, 99.9% of people's guitars have finishes that probably have a (albeit very slight) detrimental effect on sound and cost more. That's how much looks mean to people in a guitar. As i'm guessing most people on this forum would probably say that say, SRV's "number 1" strat, looked pretty cool, i ask that why is buying a relic any different from buying a guitar with a fancy finish?? Just my opinion. Excellent counterpoint. Although I would still buy an Anderson or Suhr with a nice quilt top before I would buy a Relic, I can see the other side of the coin much clearer now. +1 Harold
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Post by stratdev on Aug 20, 2006 11:24:12 GMT -7
Interesting thread... I have one foot in the vintage camp and another with the relics. I have a '66 Strat refin/refret (Maytag White ) with all the original electronics and have tried for years to retire her, but until recently I couldn't duplicate it's tone. I grabbed a very mildly relic'd Fender '65 relic. The key to tone matching ended up more as a relative strength issue, the neck pup on my '66 (grey bobbin dated 5/65) is much stronger than the mid and bridge pups (same dates). Back then Fender was just grabbing pups out of a bin with no regard for strength... so ya get quite a bit of variation in vintage pieces. I grabbed a set of Lollar Blackface pups, put the bridge pup in the neck and the neck in the bridge...voila...the relic ended up pretty damned close to the '66 tonally. But the relic has equal (or better) stage vibe and can be replaced tomorrow. So, for me it's hard to knock the relics since they are reasonably priced (most of the production relics) and, with a little work, can match up well with a particular vintage piece tonally. My '66: The relic: I've always wanted a nice vintage 50's tele but never ran across the right deal, but for about $1500 I grabbed a Nash relic and couldn't be happier. The Nash relic's are truly players guitars... Bill takes the time to really finish off the fretwork (not Fender's long suit lately), get the neck tilt right, make sure the fit in the neck pocket is ultra tight...in short, all the things that Fender should be doing. Regardless of how it's finished, the Nash simply beat the pants off any recent Fender tele I've had. So for ME in this case, it was the tone and attention to "player" details that made the Nash's stand out. Added bonus...you should see folks in the crowd break their necks to scrutinze the tele... incrediblly hip stage appeal. Our band is a very Delbert-esque combination of roadhouse blues/R&B and even as a "stage prop" when I'm not playing it, the Nash still garners attention. So in short, I can relate to both sides of the "relic" issue. The Nash...note there is no Fender logo stuck on the headstock...Fender doesn't deserve it Please make sure you've had your tetanus booster before viewing the following :
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Post by Curt on Aug 20, 2006 12:26:30 GMT -7
Cool angle, cool pics and cool gear ! I'm gassin' for your Pro !!! I have a '68 SF Pro. I had a nash Tele, great vibe but fretted out badly and the pups were horrible, the neck profile/feel was wonderful but I just could not see putting a $200 refret on a "New" guitar so I sold her off.
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Post by stratdev on Aug 20, 2006 12:42:38 GMT -7
Cool angle, cool pics and cool gear ! I'm gassin' for your Pro !!! I have a '68 SF Pro. I had a nash Tele, great vibe but fretted out badly and the pups were horrible, the neck profile/feel was wonderful but I just could not see putting a $200 refret on a "New" guitar so I sold her off. Bill would have fixed that without a refret...most likely a combination of truss rod adjustment and neck tilt. I have ZERO fretting out problems (will take a two step bend anywhere on the neck with ease). Bill uses lots of different pups...mine has a Voodoo 50 in the neck and a Voodoo 60 in the bridge. I normally use nothing but Harmonic Designs in teles, but these were fantastic. The only thing I really have to do to her is put in a 4 way switch to add the pups together in series... The Pro Reverbs are one of the best amps I've ever heard with single coils. Designed by Leo before he left and CBS didn't really mess with the early ones.That pic had different speakers installed then, now it has a ceramic and an alnico Tine Tubby. They are starting to take off now on the collectors market. I'd rather play it
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Post by Curt on Aug 20, 2006 20:28:05 GMT -7
The VooDoo '60's bridge pup is a Killer for sure, I love that pup. My Nash had Duncan Hots and they stunk. I tried and tried but she would not play the way I wanted it to. I can live with the vintage rad. but the frets were very small, VERY small, like they had been dressed too much ?!?!
I could not see dumping $$ in it so I sold it for what I'd paid new and am happy.
I have not had my Pro very long, It's virgin. Only the power tubes are not original but they are very old, German Tubes. I checked the bias tonight as it seemed weak. Bias was 24.4 mA so I raised it to 33mA, MUCH better. Gotta figure out what to replace the stock Utah speakers with as I plan to gig this Gem. I'll take another one if I can find one.
Later, Curt
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wilzgt
Full Member
I plumb for Z-Tone !
Posts: 151
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Post by wilzgt on Aug 21, 2006 9:27:50 GMT -7
I also don't get the beating up of a beautiful instrument, but to each their own. Sound wise these relics are pretty sweet because I've heard them.
My buddy ordered one and asked for a heavy relic look to it. For him, it's the guitar's tone he cares the most for. I've heard them and they do sound very nice. He doesn't care about the looks and knows that any custom Tele holds it's value.
I'd rather order a new looking instrument because I like having pretty looking gear---like the strat that's picured in this thread!
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Post by billyguitar on Aug 21, 2006 10:01:27 GMT -7
That Tele above looks GREAT except for the burn. I have an old Tweed Deluxe with a big burn on one of the back panels. My theory is someone laid a soldering iron on it and forgot about it. I've seen plenty of cigarette burns on old tweed amps and guitars and I don't think a cig would've burned my amp that way. I'm not sure what the builder was thinking when he burned the guitar. It sure makes it look abused though!
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Post by stratdev on Aug 21, 2006 23:40:01 GMT -7
The VooDoo '60's bridge pup is a Killer for sure, I love that pup. My Nash had Duncan Hots and they stunk. I tried and tried but she would not play the way I wanted it to. I can live with the vintage rad. but the frets were very small, VERY small, like they had been dressed too much ?!?! I could not see dumping $$ in it so I sold it for what I'd paid new and am happy. I have not had my Pro very long, It's virgin. Only the power tubes are not original but they are very old, German Tubes. I checked the bias tonight as it seemed weak. Bias was 24.4 mA so I raised it to 33mA, MUCH better. Gotta figure out what to replace the stock Utah speakers with as I plan to gig this Gem. I'll take another one if I can find one. Later, Curt I've been using Harmonic Designs, but those Voodoos really surprised me...they are nasty (in the finest of ways). Very explosive with the Stang Ray The Pro Reverb... My Tubbies are coming out and Texas Heats going in. The Heats have become my "go-to" speaker for Fenders. If ya want a very close approximation of the original Utah's, ya may wanna try a set of Eminence Legend 125-8's. I just bought LeftyLang's Super Reverb chassis in a blond (Bandmaster-style?) head cab. I'm dying to run that through a couple Heats... Alan
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