|
Post by Hohn on Jul 24, 2006 9:11:37 GMT -7
OK, this is a mini-rant.
Since when dia beat up finish and rusty hardware become marketable???
It says a lot about 1) the power of the Fender Brand and 2) the ignorance of many guitar buyers
I ask you this: would you pay big $$ for a Hamer or Reverend or anything ELSE that was "new" but made to look abused?
The most troubling thing of all is that these things actually SELL. I assume they must, because they still offer them.
IMO, Gibson is on a far better path wrt the VOS series. People want a new guitar the feels nicely broken in, not something that looks like it was strapped to a King Crab fishing boat for a couple seasons.
Maybe I should offer my services to "relic" someone's otherwise nice Strat? I have an assortment of power tools that can do any manner of damage to an otherwise nice guitar.....
Maybe I'm the only one, but I JUST DON'T GET IT!!
|
|
|
Post by real oldster on Jul 24, 2006 9:39:22 GMT -7
Play a Fender Relic and you'll "GET IT." The only "silly' thing would be letting a pre-judgment keep you from experiencing a fine guitar.
IMO ;D
|
|
|
Post by Bill on Jul 24, 2006 10:05:50 GMT -7
I don't get it either. An authentic old geetar that's been around the block with lots of stories to tell is one thing, but buying new off the shelf with a relic job is just not my cup o tea. I'm NOT critiqueing anyone who digs the relic finishes, a couple buddies have 'em...they're just not on my GAS wish list. The last Custom Shop Strat I bought, I went over with a fine tooth comb and found a small belt buckle scratch on the back. Ended up getting a couple more bills off the negotiated price...that's what I'm talkin' about! I'll take this one please!:
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Jul 24, 2006 10:51:58 GMT -7
I've seen relic fenders advertised for sale as mint condition. How could you tell? Once again I think it's the quality of the relic job. Some are unnatural enough to spot from across the room, others you have to hold and study to tell. A Nash or Jay Black refin are hard spot sometimes so Fender doesn't necessarily do the best ones. In the late 70s and early 80s my main guitar, which I still have, was a Travis Bean Standard with the smaller neck. 2-1/2 of those years were spent playing 6 nights a week, the rest of the time was 4 to 8 gigs a month. In all that time I put some heavy wear on it, some pretty good size areas right to the wood. That was a lot of use for one guitar. Nobody plays one guitar that long or hard anymore. So we're left with if you want a guitar that looks like that then you have to buy it. I don't see the problem. I look at it like it's a finish option. You want sunburst, blonde, dakota red? Would you like that aged? What's the difference, it's just a finish option. Personally I have no need for a green, red or blue guitar but it's an option that others want. I've seen some reliced amps. One fooled me until I looked in the back and could see it was new. It was a reissue brown Vibroverb, kind of cool. This one was done by someone here in town. The other is a 4x10 Bassman reissue that is for sale at Guitar Center here. I don't know if Fender did it or an individual did it. Looked fake. With the Vibroverb I mentioned or say a reliced Broadcaster, what's a guy to do? I'm not going to spend the money on originals so why not have a fake? Just an option.
|
|
|
Post by Curt on Jul 24, 2006 11:05:39 GMT -7
I like 'em, old beat crap ( excuse me "Distressed") has always attracted me, is real wear prefered? YES. But every time I get a new anything, that first scratch hurts so bad it drives my obsessive compulsive self nuts, so I buy used 99% of the time, auto's, gear, etc.
Personal tastes makes the world go around !
I love to look at shiny new stuff, but prefer someone else buy it.
|
|
|
Post by Curt on Jul 24, 2006 11:07:17 GMT -7
Hey...just noticed my Karma grew by a couple....must be some Birthday Karma Thanks to whom ever saw fit. Curt
|
|
|
Post by myles on Jul 24, 2006 11:26:46 GMT -7
Hey...just noticed my Karma grew by a couple....must be some Birthday Karma Thanks to whom ever saw fit. Curt Curt .... Well happy birthday! You are easy to please ... I just gave you a Karma point as well as a birthday gift!
|
|
|
Post by Hohn on Jul 24, 2006 11:39:29 GMT -7
I'm surprised I haven't been Smote(?) yet on this one. I'm (edit: NOT) meaning to step on toes. (edit: wow, how's that for an omission?)
If it's strictly a *feel* thing, then you can get that feel in a guitar that still looks good, right?
I guess I don't get a couple things: -- why does good feel have to come with such non-newness. How does rusty hardware help tone? -- Why do people think that you can BUY the same "vibe" that took many many hours to put into a guitar with REAL mileage? -- Why is the extra aging worth paying for, when you could do it yourself the normal way? If you want less finish on the guitar, fire up the sander and Scotch Brite pads, right?
If we took the "relic" methodology and applied it to other things, we would see more what my point is. What if GM announced a "relic" Corvette that came with scratches and dents already, and a couple moldy French Fries under the seat just for authenticity?
I love old Mopars, but I wouldn't pay $40K for my old Dodge Coronet that had chalky paint and rusty floorboards. I certainly would pay that for a New Charger if it was in the same condition and had the same bad handling and lame brakes!
I've played many guitars that have a good vibe to them-- none of them looked beat to hell and back. Now, I'm not saying that you can't have good tone in a beat up guitar. Obviously not true (willy nelson's guitar comes to mind). I *am* saying that while a beat-up guitar may have a lot of *character*, it's not mandatory for it to have good *tone* or *feel*.
Then again, who ever said that we as guitarists were rational? We bond with our gear like some people bond with pets-- maybe even more so!
Justin
|
|
|
Post by johngourlay on Jul 24, 2006 11:50:32 GMT -7
I didn't get it either until I got my 62 Strat relic. It's lovely, plays fantastic and looks great. I can't justify £9000 ( $12000 ish) for a genuine. The Jeff Beck Tele I DO NOT get.
|
|
|
Post by rcrecelius on Jul 24, 2006 12:36:34 GMT -7
Hey, if we all liked the same thing, there wouldnt be much to choose from. Think about this (gasps in horror)...some people dont like Z amps!
|
|
|
Post by Curt on Jul 24, 2006 12:57:36 GMT -7
I didn't get it either until I got my 62 Strat relic. It's lovely, plays fantastic and looks great. I can't justify £9000 ( $12000 ish) for a genuine. The Jeff Beck Tele I DO NOT get. List $15K, Street $10k...Me neither !! I HAVE played two and they play and feel wonderful.... $2500 wonderful...not $10k wonderful
|
|
|
Post by Curt on Jul 24, 2006 13:01:01 GMT -7
Hey...just noticed my Karma grew by a couple....must be some Birthday Karma Thanks to whom ever saw fit. Curt Curt .... Well happy birthday! You are easy to please ... I just gave you a Karma point as well as a birthday gift! Thanks Myles ;D Yes Sir, fairly easy ta please, 44 years young today, gotta new house almost remodeled to fit our tastes, new wife that makes me happy, good kids, cool gear, two bands and a buncha the nicest folks here as Z brothers..... Life is good friend
|
|
|
Post by nitehawk55 on Jul 24, 2006 20:28:21 GMT -7
First off...happy B'day Curt....44 is a nice even number How much does the "relic" finish actually add to the price of one of these Custom shop guitars ? Not something I would want either and I usually purchase slightly used guitars most of the time myself and if they have a little buckle rash or a couple dings I don't have to worry adding to them ! Plus the fact you save that initial driving it off that lot depreciation . Like most I try to keep my equipment looking good and look after it but it is inevitable that sooner or later the worst will happen to that "mint" guitar you own . Actually in a couple events that I have dinged a guitar it's been on one of the latches when putting back it in the case . Like a fellow once said....you gonna play that thing son or just look at it and fondle it some ;D
|
|
|
Post by janinedoubly on Jul 24, 2006 20:55:16 GMT -7
I'll give you a little history and maybe it will shed some light on this "relic" thing.
When Fender first opened up the current Custom Shop in the early nineties, Strats, old Strats particularly, were THE guitars to have. Stevie Ray had just passed away, Eric Johnson was flying high and pre-CBS Strats' prices had just started to get completely out of reach for most players. The USA factory in Corona was just starting to stretch its legs after the phoenix like ressurection in the 80's. The American standard Strats were decent, the American vintage series guitars were well made and sounded good and the new signature SRV Strat was a cool item, but all of them lacked that certain something. No, it was not just the beat up look, but they missed a certain vibe and vintage correctness that many folks had experienced when they would pick up any real vintage piece. There just simply is nothing cooler feeling than an old late 50's/early 60's Strat neck where the combination of worn in laquer, raw maple and decades of finger oils seeped into the neck has this "feel" unlike any other. Its like running your hand up and down a century old banister or hand rail; glossy from the thousands of hands that have touched it. And there is nothing cooler looking than a guitar body, covered in battle scars, REAL battle scars. Nobody ever talked about how cool the new graphics were on Dweezil Zappa's guitars in this era, but even a non-guitar lover could chat about how cool SRV's Strat or Willie Nelson's "Trigger" was.
I thought I'd reached Strat nirvana with my brand new SRV signature model around this time, until I played one of the very first CS "relic's" that Fender had Vince Cunetto do. It was the perfect combination of a TRULY hand made, vintage correct, and ARTFULLY worn in guitar. It looked, felt and sounded "right". I can't explain it any better. Vince's work had an artistic flair that was very cool, and it made perfect sense when you saw it. And this artistic "patina" was added to a spectacular guitar. The guitar was a dream to play and thankfully, broke from vintage spec in a couple of ways. It had a 9.5 radius, medium jumbo frets, and hand wound, calibrated pickups. Sure, the rust was all for look, it contributed nothing to the sound, but the guitar with all the wear, that DID contribute to the FEEL, wouldn't have looked right with shiny nickel. Once demand kicked in (and I believe it was purely because the first ones were SO good), Fender and Cunetto, couldn't keep up and quality dipped. I believe, Fender has been trying to live up to this ever since.
Its funny that Fender keeps coming out with new Custom Shop and production models that attempt to have some of the "vibe" of these early CS guitars; "One off" Team Built CS, "lighter" relic'ing, "thin skin" nitro American Vintage guitars and the Master Built stuff that is three times the price and STILL not as consistent as the first run of CS guitars were.
I believe the Relic charm, originally came from a good place; an originally successful attempt to re-create the charm, mystique AND actually superior feeling, sounding and looking Pre-CBS guitars that were seen in the hands of professional players. Enough real world musicians, not just collectors, had had their hands on enough real deal pre-CBS guitars in this era to know that the CS guitars in the early 90's were as close as they were ever going to get. Fender, unfortunately, IMO, has never caught back up on a consistant basis.
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Jul 25, 2006 7:52:50 GMT -7
There are also people that refer to Gibson's Historical series as the Gibson Hysterical series. Those are more based on using original dimensions etc. and not about finishes but my point is some people think it's cool and some don't. Same with the relics. I'm not likely to buy a Fender relic but I appreciate them as a finish option.
|
|
|
Post by Hohn on Jul 25, 2006 12:07:04 GMT -7
Thanks for the history lesson, JD-- that explains a lot. I guess Fender's heart was in the right place, but now it seems to come off as a parody of itself.
Personally, I don't care much what the finish of a guitar looks like, if it PLAYS and SOUNDS great.
Billy is right to point out how good we have it as guitar buyers. Never before have we had as many options, as many GOOD options, and at a lower relative cost.
jmo
|
|
|
Post by chipstar75 on Jul 25, 2006 13:57:55 GMT -7
i think the whole relic thing is fueled from the vintage market. The old stuff sells well and judgeing by the prices I see in vintage guitar, is quite pricey. They forget we like the old stuff cuz its sounds good..not because it looks old. Its not just guitars...my daughter bought a new pair of jeans at Aropostal, and 65 bucks later, they look like theyve been run over by a train and washed 100 times. When I was a kid, we bought new stuff when our old stuff got tatered and holy. Now it comes that way. Id love to have that job..".distress artist" Just sittin around putting lit ciggeretts on new amps and spillin beer on them. Im sure there is a spec sheet....lets see...says here... a blues deluxe can have up to 3 burns, 4 freys, 3 worn off numbers, one vinyl tear.etc. chip
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Jul 25, 2006 14:54:53 GMT -7
The weird thing about all of those new distressed jeans is that yellowish tint. They're trying to say not only are they old (wink, wink) but they're filthy!
|
|
|
Post by Sam A. on Jul 25, 2006 17:31:31 GMT -7
i think the whole relic thing is fueled from the vintage market. The old stuff sells well and judgeing by the prices I see in vintage guitar, is quite pricey. They forget we like the old stuff cuz its sounds good..not because it looks old. Its not just guitars...my daughter bought a new pair of jeans at Aropostal, and 65 bucks later, they look like theyve been run over by a train and washed 100 times. When I was a kid, we bought new stuff when our old stuff got tatered and holy. Now it comes that way. Id love to have that job..".distress artist" Just sittin around putting lit ciggeretts on new amps and spillin beer on them. Im sure there is a spec sheet....lets see...says here... a blues deluxe can have up to 3 burns, 4 freys, 3 worn off numbers, one vinyl tear.etc. chip wow!!! $65 bucks!!! You got out cheap. My wife just brought home a pair of jeans called Hudsons. They look S crewed Glued and Tattoo'ed. I looked at the receipt $195.00 (no that is not a typo. I nearly lost my marbles. Then she said. "how many amps do you need with that Z logo?" She has a point. ;D Sam
|
|
|
Post by Curt on Jul 25, 2006 19:54:56 GMT -7
Dude...They ALWAYS pull that crap !!! LOL
|
|
|
Post by jwr on Jul 25, 2006 20:41:17 GMT -7
Hohn, I don't get it either. My Tech has warned me about most all of the new Fender instruments, especially the new American made strats. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would want a beat up looking instrument right out of the box. My Les Paul is beat up and I love it, ya know why? Because those are MY dents, scratches and drunken nights with that guitar and are MY stories forever. Everyone wants the quick end result. It has to be earned! I love the first scratch on a new instrument, I like to get it out of the way!!! By the way, plus one on the thread, I was wondering when this subject might come up. Jason
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Jul 26, 2006 5:45:56 GMT -7
This is an issue that can not be resolved. Some will always say they're cool, the ones that are done well that is, and others will always think it's stupid. A very polarizing topic and I'll bet 99.99% of the people in one camp or the other will never change their mind. Very few are neutral on this. We just have to agree to disagree on this subject.
|
|
|
Post by rcrecelius on Jul 26, 2006 6:15:50 GMT -7
I appreciate the look of an old, well used guitar although I dont think I would ever buy a relic. When I built my parts tele, I got the body finished in nitro so it would age the way the old ones did...but I did try to keep it looking new for a while. I built it in September last year and it already has some noticeable scars...I bet in 3-4 years it will have a nice "aged" look to it.
|
|
|
Post by tele1962 on Jul 29, 2006 21:05:29 GMT -7
I bought a relic. Then I bought another one, and finally a third. One was a Telecaster, then two Stratocasters. I spent too much money. I want to come clean and admit it. But I'm getting older now, and just love old, great sounding guitars. My personal weakness is the fabulous playablity of these guitars, the unmatched tone, and vibe. I can't explain it, and I don't care to. But I can explain financials. On one block of RRSP's I have, I gained 12% last year. On another block, only 7%. A great grouping of investments did 17% for me a few years back, but it has slid since. I paid 12G for a '55 Telecaster. I could have put that into a term investment and been guaranteed 9%. But I was overcome with this relic instead and bought it. Stupid move! Stupid money to pay for a guitar that's not quite new anymore. In the last two years, the lowest offers coming are around 18G. I don't want to sell it, but can someone smarter than me do the math and tell me what my return would be in %? The Strats are doing a bit better, actually, and I don't understand exactly why all this is the way it is, but I know it's way more fun than investing in Money Market Funds. I kinda like "relics". Put me down as voting for 'em
|
|
|
Post by John on Aug 7, 2006 5:26:36 GMT -7
Just to let everyone know, I am a relic specialist.
Just send me your strat along with a case of beer and I'll relic your strat just like the Fender Custom Shop. My method may be a bit different...getting drunk and nicking at your strat with a tip of a screwdriver...
I know this may not seem like much, but it's an acquired skill.
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Aug 7, 2006 5:30:43 GMT -7
Every new issue of Vintage Guitar magazine shows the real guitars just going higher and farther away from rational prices. I think there's money to be made by investing in them and flipping them a year later but I'm more about making music with them. The well done relics look better every month. Just look at that fake '59 Curt bought! Who wouldn't want that!
|
|
|
Post by nitehawk55 on Aug 7, 2006 8:12:46 GMT -7
Vintage prices are rising at a crazy rate as is the cost of houses , gas and many other things . Eventually the market is going to have a "correction" and by this I mean a recession much like we had in the late 70's and maybe worse . Don't mean to bum everyone out but I'm seeing the same things happening now and it doesn't look good .
|
|
|
Post by tele1962 on Aug 7, 2006 8:43:18 GMT -7
Everything is relative. My point is that my "relics" have gone up 50 -70% over the last 2 years alone, and what Money Market Fund is doing that? You put $12G into a GIC, and get 4% return, or buy a 1962 Stratocaster guitar and get 70% over 2 years. Which is actually the money smart move? Which provides more fun at the same time? For me, fellas...this is a no brainer. Buying a house is a good financial move. Buying a "REAL relic" guitar is even stronger dollarwise when you look at return rates right now.
|
|
|
Post by nitehawk55 on Aug 7, 2006 10:06:00 GMT -7
Return rates are fantastic right now on a lot of collectable items and housing as well and yes , it's a great time to buy and sell for profit . My point I'm saying is that in all likelyhood it can and will stop at some point . I lost a lot in the recession of the late 70's because I got in too deep financially and then everything went to pieces . It can happen again , just keep an eye on what is happening with the automotive market slowdown as well as other sectors of the economy starting to fall apart with shutdowns and layoffs . It's a time for caution because things of value can take a sudden downturn in value just like the stock market .
|
|
|
Post by billyguitar on Aug 7, 2006 10:30:58 GMT -7
I always suspect the 'universe' is setting me up for a fall so I never gamble with my money. That's probably why I can't see retiring until at least age 66, not much risk, not much gain. Also I'm a scaredy cat!
|
|