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Post by garyh on Apr 1, 2006 10:12:46 GMT -7
I just bought an American Deluxe Ash stratocaster and love the guitar. A selling point for me was the S1 switching system (converts pickups 1 and 2 or 3 and 2 into series for humbucking tones as well as some other cool sounds). The Hum sounds aren't as thick as normal dedicated humbuckers but are great for some jazz on the neck pups or for thickening up an overdrive sound on the bridge pups. However, I'm not crazy about the SCN pickups. Last night I set about removing my Kinman AVN Blues which I love from my old strat but when I opened my new strat, the SCN pups have three wires coming out of each. I closed it up, changed strings, and set iy up.
Now I don't know what to do. I could put the Kinmans in and lose the humbucker switching option, or I could put in real hums with coil taps, or I could put in side by side singles in parallel which I've done before and liked, or could leave as is and get used to it. These SCNs sound muddy and flat. They don't have that nice round and lively bump that my Kinmans have.
I'd be interested in opinions before I start hacking up this guitar. My preferred option is to put the Kinmans in and retain the S1 system. Does anyone know how to do this?
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Post by quinto on Apr 1, 2006 11:33:05 GMT -7
I saw a section on the Kinman website a while ago about the S-1 equipped Strats. I'm pretty sure he said that he can send you installation instructions for that application. Hope this helps.
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Post by JChance on Apr 1, 2006 11:42:11 GMT -7
I'm borrowing a friend's American Deluxe Tele right now while mine Dunlavey is getting a fret job. My buddy's tele has the S-1 system with the SCN pickups. It's a really nice guitar, but these pickups are garbage IMO.. Sound like total a$$. I can deal with 60 cycle if the guitar's got *THE TONE.* The SCN's are exactly as described above- Muddy, flat, and lifeless. Haven't tried the Kinmans, and I'm sure they are lot better. I just think Fender missed the boat with these things-
JC
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Post by garyh on Apr 1, 2006 14:03:23 GMT -7
Thanks quinto. I sent an e-mail to Chris Kinman asking for advice. He's out of town now for a week (of course) and I just got back from the Musicstop where I bought the guitar. There's a technician there who apparently knows this stuff but he works Mon to Fri, 9:00 to 5:00. I'll get ahold of him this week.
I'm glad you find the sound of these SCNs the same as me, Jayson. Others have been saying they love the sound. I thought it was just me. The Kinmans are great. Mine are supposed to sound like an early 60s strat and I've played a 1960 strat a few times lately, and they are pretty well identical except for the lack of any noise of course.
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Post by garyh on Apr 1, 2006 14:15:24 GMT -7
I just found this in th faq section of the Kinman website:
S1 Switching System by Fender, will Kinman Hx pickups be compatable?
Yes, no problem. In fact you will get a huge improvement in tone and dymamic performance with my redesigned AVn-Traditional set. Upon request with order for pickups I can provide special wirogram and fitting instructions (with Photos) developed especially for the S1 system. The result is stunning.
NOTE: only pickups manufactured after June '04 are compatable.
I think I bought mine in May '04. I'm glad to see it's possible. If I have to, I'll sell my AVN Blues and get new ones. Thanks guys. I'm so impatient though. I want to do it today.
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Post by quinto on Apr 1, 2006 14:37:40 GMT -7
Yes, the SCN's are pretty bad. I used to have a 2 color sunburst American Deluxe V-Neck Strat with the S-1 switch and SCN's and I just couldin't get into them at all. After 6mo. I sold it. Just didin't want to spend any more money on a new guitar. Too bad 'cause it was such a nice looking and playing guitar.
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Post by garyh on Apr 1, 2006 18:20:58 GMT -7
Well kudos to Chris Kinman. The guy is supposed to be on vacation but he e-mailed me back after an hour or two. After another e-mail message to him, and he sent me the wiring diagrams and instructions to put my AVN Blues in the S1 switching system. The soldering iron is warming up!
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Post by seaking on Apr 1, 2006 19:51:00 GMT -7
Hi Garyh; A big down home howdy do to a fellow bluenoser. Sorry to hear about your PUP dilemma. I don't have any answers for ya, but here's some karma for all the extra research and effort required to fix things up. Sounds like your well on way though. Good luck with the soldering...I burn myself every time I plug one of those things in I recently heard one of these strats during a very load jam at a friend’s house. These guys hardly ever used their clean channel. One had a standard strat & 5150 the other a SI Strat and Yorkville 50 blue + extension cab. I was struck by the rich, dynamic overdriven tones with the SI set-up (far better than the other). The player talked me through the design and I was impressed. I then asked him to demonstrate cleans tones... which left me very under whelmed. Could have been the guitar, the amp or both. Not sure and I didn't stick around long enough to figure it out.
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Post by garyh on Apr 2, 2006 0:35:46 GMT -7
Well small world. Welcome tp the club seaking. With a handle like that I'd guess you're from Eastern Passage or you're in the armed forces. I'm from Halifax currently living in Cole Harbour.
It's 3:00 in the morning and I just finished installing those pups. Man what a difference. The SCNs really sucked. This is such a great guitar and with the Kinmans and the S1 switching it's just sounds incredible and so versatile now. The cleans are out of this world. I'll wait 'till tomorrow to play through some pedals; don't want to wake up my boy. I guess I'll lose an hour's sleep tonight too. Oh well. I have played these pups before with overdrive in single coil mode and they are awesome there too. Can't wait to hear them overdriven in series.
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Post by seaking on Apr 2, 2006 5:20:38 GMT -7
Right you are. I'm always amazed at how small the world is. Although once when I sailed half way around it, it seemed endless . I am indeed in the forces, been working on Seakings for many years. Hope they haven't dropped any parts on your property during their frequent flyovers I know nothing...My Dad lives in Cole Hbr too, on Attwood and I've been in Woodlawn for 10 years now. You were up pretty late last night. Hopefully your kid doesn't get you up too early and drag you off to the rink or something. I've been toying with the idea of a PUP swap too, but first I'm waiting out an amp. Might be looking for advice sometime in that regard brotha
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Post by Bill on Apr 2, 2006 6:13:14 GMT -7
You guys now have me wondering?...because what you say about SCN pups, is exactly what a friend of mine has been telling me ever since I bought my Am Del Tele. He immediately put Fralins in his Am Del, while I've been satisfied all along with the stock SCN's.
Including him, that makes four against one! Guess I need to look into some replacements.
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Post by Curt on Apr 2, 2006 7:51:51 GMT -7
Bill, One word for ya; "Amalfitano"
Bill I have a set of Kinman AVN'60 Tele pups here, if ya want to just check them out I'll send them to ya. If ya like 'em we can work something out, if ya don't, send them back.
Curt
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Post by garyh on Apr 2, 2006 17:53:09 GMT -7
There are a lot of great pickups out there these days. But if you really want noiseless single coils go with Kinman. You give up very little if anything tone wise; not much of a compromise really.
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Post by billyguitar on Apr 2, 2006 18:20:47 GMT -7
I liked the Avn 48s in my Tele fine. They probably aren't the ultimate Tele pickup but they actually sounded very similar to the '52 Reissue's stock pickups, just no hum. I don't like that guitar much anymore but if I did play it again I would keep the Kinmans in it.
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Post by GuitarZ on May 21, 2006 9:23:22 GMT -7
Gary - I'm getting ready to pull the trigger and go with the AVN Blues to replace my Vintage Noiseless in my American Deluxe Strat. I actually like the brightness of the Vintage Noiseless, but of course only when they're on 10 since they go to complete mud when you turn down the volume. I'm not sure whether the SCN's sound similar to the Vintage Noiseless, but how would you describe the difference in tone between your SCNs and the Kinman AVN Blues? Are they as bright, but fuller? Are they darker? I looked back through this post and through my "Strat PUs 101 for a Les Paul Guy", but I didn't see an explanation on tone. It's definitely clear that you like them a whole lot better. I'm playing blues and rock. Here's a short clip of a solo that kind of captures my typical tone with my middle pickup: www.MikeZBand.com/music/Torn_Apart_Solo.mp3I appreciate the help. It's scary buying something from all the way Down Under without getting a chance to try it out.
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Post by Hohn on May 25, 2006 6:56:54 GMT -7
Hey fellas, I actually have some *experience* to offer you, since I have the Kinman Blues in my Zion "strat", and I've had regular Kinman AVns in an Am Std Strat Deluxe (locking tuners,etc)
My Zion was originally equipped with Fralins. While I mostly liked the sound of the Fralins, the hum was killing me. Zion does a good job of shielding, but you can't eliminate all hum from Fralins. I found myself having to use 2&4 a lot more than I wanted to because the RWRP middle pickup would cancel hum. So I went with another set of Kinmans-- this time the Blues Kinmans because this Strat had a maple board, andmaple top.
Yes, my Zion has my SECOND set of Kinmans in it. The first set of Kinmans I had in an American Deluxe Strat to replace the Vintage Noiseless.
See, I went Strat shopping and found a real ringer. This thing felt great and sustained for days-- one of the very few newer Strats that impressed me. Then I plugged it in. The first thing I said was "these pickups have to go." You could feel the great tone in the guitar, but it went away when plugged in.
So I went looking for a quiet pickup that sounded good. My search led me to Kinmans. I'd played all the "virtual vintage" and such pickups from the other guys, and EVERY quiet pickup I tried out didn't sound good to me.
So when Chris Kinman started talking about how he hated hum, and how all the "quiet" pickups out there didn't satisfy him, it really struck me, as I was relating to that in a HUGE way.
I ordered a set of the Kinman "AVns" for my Am Std Strat. When they went in, it was a real epiphany. The tone was AWESOME! I would find myself so inspired and playing so hard that I would sometimes realize I had been holding my breath as I played (I guess I can't play and breathe at the same time when "in the zone", lol).
Well, I found myself in a financial tight spot, and parted with this great Strat for $700 (guitar AND Kinmans!!!!!)
When I got my Zion with the Fralins, I wasn't that pleased with the tone, and the hum was inacceptable to me. So I went with the Kinmans again. But this time I went with the Blues because the Zion is a little "brighter" guitar with it's maple board and maple top on an Ash body (my Am Std Deluxe was an Alder body/RW board), and I wanted a similar tone as my older strat.
I can't say enough about the Kinmans. Both the AVN and AVN blues sound fantastic to my ears (make sure you swap to a 250K pot). With a darker amp, the regular AVNs are probably a better choice (like with my Classic 30). If you are playing a brighter amp like a Twins or AC30, then I'd go with the Blues.
So, for comparisons:
1) Fender Noiseless pup VS Kinman AVN in Am Std Strat: Kinmans were better in every regard. A lot more "air" to the tone. Plenty of top end, but it's SMOOOOTH top end-- never harsh. More sustain with the Kinmans (weaker magnetic poles). Overall, a much more balanced, musical sound that made the cleans positively inspiring instead of bland. With the TS9, it got a real nasty "howl' that was a LOT like SRVs best tones. I LOVED IT!
2) Kinman "blues" vs Fralins in Zion Strat: In this case, the difference in tone was a lot more subtle. The Fralins probably are a more authentic vintage tone than the AVN Blues (the blues are slightly darker than an actual vintage pickup, imo-- but it's very slight.) But overall, I prefer the tone of the Kinmans for the most part. The Fralins had a hair more "quack" in 2&4, IIRC.
My only real objection to the Fralins (aside from the Hum) was that they just sounded "thin". The Kinmans have a fuller sound, with more harmonic content.
Let me close this by mentioning that I'm not sure WHICH Fralins I had as OEM pups in my Zion Strat, so YMMV when comparing this to other Fralins. I'll see if I can't find out exactly WHICH fralins they were.
I prefer the Kinmans. Never any problems with top end clarity or cut through the mix when used with decent amp.
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Post by rcrecelius on May 25, 2006 7:27:06 GMT -7
I guess I really owe it to myself to try Kinmans again. I bought a set a couple years ago for a tele but I didnt really care for the sound and got rid of them. Since then, Ive put several different pickups into that same guitar and non of them have sounded good! I bet in a different guitar I might like em. Like someone else said earlier, I can deal with the hum if Ive got a good tone but I will start playing a club in July where I know the 60cycle hum is horrible so I would kinda like to have a noiseless option for places like that.
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Post by billyguitar on May 25, 2006 8:56:11 GMT -7
Kinman offers at least 2 different sets of Tele pickups. I have the AVn 48s. A guy I know has the '62s. The 48s are a little hotter and a little darker. We both preferred the 48s. One think I don't like about the Kinman Tele neck pickup is the cover. It's not flat on top. The Tele I have them in has a 12" to 16" compound radius neck and that rounded top keeps me from getting the pickup high enough so I have to not use that cover. That's scarey because a string could get caught under there and break a coil wire. I asked him about making a flat top and he said it would cost too much in tooling. Also that cover is chromed plastic which will eventually wear down to white, unlike a metal cover.
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Post by Hohn on May 25, 2006 12:43:06 GMT -7
I'm sorry. I didn't realize we're talking TELE pickups in the Kinman flavor. I've only experienced the Kinman strat pups.
I've rarely played Teles, and bought my Zion because it was a screaming deal and I'd heard the Bardens were good pups.
So my only real Tele pup experience is the Bardens in my Zion-- needless to say, those have sorta spoiled me. They sound great and are dead quiet. Very hot and still pretty bright.
Justin
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Post by Hohn on May 26, 2006 7:12:11 GMT -7
UPDATE: The Fralins that were in my Zion Strat were the Fralin "blues".
jh
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Post by GuitarZ on May 28, 2006 6:50:39 GMT -7
I ordered up the Kinman AVN Blues for my Strat yesterday. Here we go.
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Post by Hohn on May 31, 2006 6:03:55 GMT -7
Get them in yet?? I'm eager to hear how they work out for you....
JH
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Post by GuitarZ on May 31, 2006 15:05:05 GMT -7
Not yet. They landed in LA today. They have to make their way to the Philly area. So, if things go well, I'll be able to get them mounted up this weekend. The new strings are all ready to go.
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Post by GuitarZ on Jun 1, 2006 20:29:08 GMT -7
They're in. I really liked the no-solder harness. I can solder, but it was nice just popping everything in with less worry.
So far, so good. I got a little bit of playing in. They sounded good and felt good without any tweaking. I set them up in about the middle of the road height-wise. I went against the rules and didn't change my amp controls on my Maz Jr.
It was such a joy to be able to work the volume control on the Strat. With the Noiseless Vintage, any volume adjustments sent the pickups straight into mud.
Versus the Noiseless Vintage, a quick recording yielded a better presence with the AVN Blues and more consistency in volume through the rhythm parts. They found their place in the mix quite nicely. I'll probably pop up the midrange on the Maz with these since that was the only thing that I missed. But that will have to wait until tomorrow.
They're sounding good. I'm too tired to figure out if they sound great yet. They do seem to be a little quieter than the Vintage Noiseless.
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Post by LeftyLang on Jun 1, 2006 21:27:53 GMT -7
You guys now have me wondering?...because what you say about SCN pups, is exactly what a friend of mine has been telling me ever since I bought my Am Del Tele. He immediately put Fralins in his Am Del, while I've been satisfied all along with the stock SCN's. Including him, that makes four against one! Guess I need to look into some replacements. Hey Madi...I am with you. I like the SCN's in my Strat. I had a strat with Kinman Woodstock's//they were great also. I have Fender Noisless in my Tele..and I like them as well..go figure
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Post by GuitarZ on Jun 3, 2006 10:16:26 GMT -7
It's been two days since installing the AVN Blues into my Strat. I am definitely a fan. They sound great. The Fender Vintage Noiseless will probably go up on Ebay within a few weeks.
This forum was great to get the opinions on the Kinmans and the other pickups along with the Harmony-Central reviews. I found the right ones for me. Thanks.
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Post by rodeoclown on Jun 3, 2006 16:37:08 GMT -7
I've got a Deluxe Vintage Player 62 Strat with the SCN pickups and S-1 switching and I really like them. They sure don't have that SRV ballsy growl to them, but I like their clean old strat type tone. And I've had a bunch of pre CBS strats. What's the tally sheet read now?
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Post by garyh on Jun 3, 2006 18:44:04 GMT -7
Congrats GuitarZ. Glad you like the Kinmans. You'll never go back.
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Post by Bill on Jun 4, 2006 9:15:23 GMT -7
You guys now have me wondering?...because what you say about SCN pups, is exactly what a friend of mine has been telling me ever since I bought my Am Del Tele. He immediately put Fralins in his Am Del, while I've been satisfied all along with the stock SCN's. Including him, that makes four against one! Guess I need to look into some replacements. Hey Madi...I am with you. I like the SCN's in my Strat. I had a strat with Kinman Woodstock's//they were great also. I have Fender Noisless in my Tele..and I like them as well..go figure Love the Kinman's, Lefty! Thanks again to Curt for hooking a former Tejas brother up ;D I looked this thread up for friend who was at my gig last night and asked about the SCN vs Kinmans. He had told me some time ago to ditch the SCN's, as they were basically junk. After reading this thread, and listening to Jayson, Gary & everyones slam on them, I knew it was time to move forward. The Kinman AVn 60's rule!
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Post by GuitarZ on Jun 4, 2006 18:45:28 GMT -7
So, I'll leave this post with the following. I have two clips of a little solo. The first one is with the Fender Vintage Noiseless and the second is with the new Kinmans. I kind of like them both although the Kinmans seem to fit me a little better. Note, that I had the Vintage Noiseless, not the SCNs. Here is the solo with the Fender Vintage Noiseless: www.MikeZBand.com/music/Torn_Apart_Solo_II.mp3Here is the solo with the Kinman AVN Blues: www.MikeZBand.com/music/Torn_Apart_Kinmans.mp3The Kinmans sing a little more. The Fenders are a bit more raunchy. They're probably both a little raunchy with my playing style. So, the singing probably agrees with me more since I played a Les Paul with Soapbars for 20+ years. Shoot, they both sound good, although I already said that. At least with the Kinmans I can adjust the guitar volume control where I couldn't with the Fenders.
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