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Post by KeithA on Oct 10, 2012 19:35:53 GMT -7
I wondering if part of your experience is the new world of the Greenback compared to, say, the G12H-30?
Just a thought....
Keith
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Post by jesslm02 on Oct 11, 2012 8:37:19 GMT -7
A more efficient speaker makes a big difference in loudness with any amp, especially the M12.
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Post by jesslm02 on Oct 11, 2012 8:38:42 GMT -7
I noticed you put the M12 up for sale in the BST, so were you able to resolve the issues you mentioned?
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 11, 2012 10:56:23 GMT -7
Still working on it - I've talked to lots of ppl and there must be something I'm doing wrong cuz they say this shouldn't be happening.
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 11, 2012 11:43:59 GMT -7
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Post by jesslm02 on Oct 11, 2012 12:10:55 GMT -7
I agree that this sounds more like an amp issue. Plugging straight in with my tele (single coil) I get fat clean tones and have plenty of volume. If you haven't already done so, re-seat your tubes and double-check your speaker cable connections to make sure nothing is loose/bad contact. Other than that it's under warranty and the Doc's customer service is out of this world!
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 11, 2012 12:49:48 GMT -7
I agree that this sounds more like an amp issue. Plugging straight in with my tele (single coil) I get fat clean tones and have plenty of volume. If you haven't already done so, re-seat your tubes and double-check your speaker cable connections to make sure nothing is loose/bad contact. Other than that it's under warranty and the Doc's customer service is out of this world! Indeed! BTW, I should also mention that I play with a drummer and keyboard player who get VERY loud under certain circumstances and the M12 has not yet run out of steam, even at gigs where I had to use earplugs to avoid pain! I can't imagine *any* gig I do where this amp would not have enough clean wattage. Obviously, it would run out at some point, but by then we'd be kicked out of the clubs we do!
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Post by jesslm02 on Oct 11, 2012 13:19:13 GMT -7
Same as mazmaster, no problem with it not being loud enough. I've yet to have the volume past noon with a full band at practice.
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 11, 2012 13:55:21 GMT -7
Same as mazmaster, no problem with it not being loud enough. I've yet to have the volume past noon with a full band at practice. I got up to about 1:30 on the Volume at my loudest gig so far, with Bass at 12:00 and Treble about 9:30-10:00...and that was screamin'...I could get instant controllable feedback on ANY string, ANY fret with an OD pedal on. But, I normally end up closer to noon myself too.Once again, KeithA's issue sounds like a bad tubes or tubes...
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Post by KeithA on Oct 11, 2012 15:23:36 GMT -7
Same as mazmaster, no problem with it not being loud enough. I've yet to have the volume past noon with a full band at practice. I got up to about 1:30 on the Volume at my loudest gig so far, with Bass at 12:00 and Treble about 9:30-10:00...and that was screamin'...I could get instant controllable feedback on ANY string, ANY fret with an OD pedal on. But, I normally end up closer to noon myself too.Once again, KeithA's issue sounds like a bad tubes or tubes... Not my issue The original post explaining the problem looks like it was deleted Keith
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Post by rickc007 on Oct 11, 2012 15:45:25 GMT -7
I got up to about 1:30 on the Volume at my loudest gig so far, with Bass at 12:00 and Treble about 9:30-10:00...and that was screamin'...I could get instant controllable feedback on ANY string, ANY fret with an OD pedal on. But, I normally end up closer to noon myself too.Once again, KeithA's issue sounds like a bad tubes or tubes... Not my issue The original post explaining the problem looks like it was deleted Keith The OP now has it on the Sales Forum ztalk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=BST&action=display&thread=52347"It's literally *MINT* and perfect condition 100%" yikes
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Post by Maddog on Oct 11, 2012 16:58:38 GMT -7
I think I'll buy it and re-tube it/or send it to Z........Can't be too bad....
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 11, 2012 18:04:50 GMT -7
I don't know what happened to my original post - I might have accidentally deleted it when trying to modify my original post. I'm not sure though - I wish I could get it back since I'm looking for help on this issue cuz I'd like to keep the amp if there is truly something wrong with it, but let's clear this up first and foremost and stop the ridiculing/bashing... I'm under the impression that nothing is wrong with my new M12 since I just bought it new from Humbucker Music who doesn't sell demo or floor models. Which means this amp was tested by the employees there and immediately put back in the box. I put it up for sale (sorry if its against the rules here to say that outside the "For Sale" section") cuz I don't think this is the amp for me. Wow - I thought this was a friendly forum... I guess I'll just go back to The Gear Page.
And I put this up for sale before anything was posted on this thread about the amp possibly having something wrong with it. So if your thinking I'm trying to unload a faulty amp your way off.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 11, 2012 18:19:30 GMT -7
Now moving on... I am still trying to work out this issue.
I have been working hard to figure this out and the issues stated in my original post (?now deleted?) have been getting better. But still when I stand more than 10 ft away it still sounds boxy. I've managed to help the squishy/really compressed overdriven tones with my pedals a bit, but at the same time it still seems picky with heavily overdriven tones. They easily get very compressed and squishy and boxy.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 11, 2012 18:25:01 GMT -7
Now moving on... I am still trying to work out this issue.
I have been working hard to figure this out and the issues stated in my original post (?now deleted?) have been getting better. But still when I stand more than 10 ft away it still sounds boxy. I've managed to help the squishy/really compressed overdriven tones with my pedals a bit, but at the same time it still seems picky with heavily overdriven tones. They easily get very compressed and squishy and boxy.
I'm just trying to figure this out cuz this doesn't seem the same case for most people.
Again - these disappointing results seem odd compared to most other people's results.
How far away are y'all standing from your amp?
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 12, 2012 6:37:24 GMT -7
I got up to about 1:30 on the Volume at my loudest gig so far, with Bass at 12:00 and Treble about 9:30-10:00...and that was screamin'...I could get instant controllable feedback on ANY string, ANY fret with an OD pedal on. But, I normally end up closer to noon myself too.Once again, KeithA's issue sounds like a bad tubes or tubes... Not my issue The original post explaining the problem looks like it was deleted Keith What was the original issue? I think I may be confusing you with Abandoned.
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 12, 2012 6:46:41 GMT -7
I don't know what happened to my original post - I might have accidentally deleted it when trying to modify my original post. I'm not sure though - I wish I could get it back since I'm looking for help on this issue cuz I'd like to keep the amp if there is truly something wrong with it, but let's clear this up first and foremost and stop the ridiculing/bashing... I'm under the impression that nothing is wrong with my new M12 since I just bought it new from Humbucker Music who doesn't sell demo or floor models. Which means this amp was tested by the employees there and immediately put back in the box. I put it up for sale (sorry if its against the rules here to say that outside the "For Sale" section") cuz I don't think this is the amp for me. Wow - I thought this was a friendly forum... I guess I'll just go back to The Gear Page. And I put this up for sale before anything was posted on this thread about the amp possibly having something wrong with it. So if your thinking I'm trying to unload a faulty amp your way off. Nobody is ridiculing anybody, that I can see. I have seen lots of suggestions (including mine) which could have helped you out but I have not seen that you have tried any of them yet. Of course, it's possible I missed something. Have you tried swapping out each tube or tube pair with known good working ones? Until you do that, all bets are off. I have had bad tubes cause exactly what you're experiencing. You could be selling an amp that you may really enjoy when it has properly functioning tubes. Secondly, I've had amps damaged in shipping due to vibration, especially the tubes. I don't know if you listened to my clips above but those don't sound anything like what you describe for your amp (i.e. "thin, weak, compressed, boxy"), which is why it's perfectly reasonable to assume there's something not quite right with your amp.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 12, 2012 7:13:17 GMT -7
I've recieved lots of help actually from here but there was just one comment on here about me selling my amp and me advertising that it's in perfect condition and "yikes" was the comment concerning it. That's what I was talking about it.
I will try putting some known good EL84's in today... But I don't have a spare EF86.
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Post by rickc007 on Oct 12, 2012 8:06:36 GMT -7
I've recieved lots of help actually from here but there was just one comment on here about me selling my amp and me advertising that it's in perfect condition and "yikes" was the comment concerning it. That's what I was talking about it. I will try putting some known good EL84's in today... But I don't have a spare EF86. I'd like to apologize but I still find it odd. You do have it listed there as "It's literally *MINT* and perfect condition 100%" Yet, you are clearly working out some issues. I wish i could be more helpful to your issues, but I am not familiar with the amp And in a friendly humorous comment, I would not recommend the quote below Wow - I thought this was a friendly forum... I guess I'll just go back to The Gear Page. Much friendlier over here
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 12, 2012 8:24:04 GMT -7
I've recieved lots of help actually from here but there was just one comment on here about me selling my amp and me advertising that it's in perfect condition and "yikes" was the comment concerning it. That's what I was talking about it. I will try putting some known good EL84's in today... But I don't have a spare EF86. Based on your description, the EL84s are a good start, but my EF86 went bad very quickly and a couple others have also had the same problem, so the EF86 is also suspect. Doc Z sent me two replacements and they solved my issue immediately. Doc Z mentioned looking into possible overheating issues with some modern production EF86s due to using the tube shield and recommended removing it. I ended up getting an Amperex NOS EF86 (as a tone experiment) which sounds wonderful and it's been rock solid ever since.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 12, 2012 9:24:13 GMT -7
I've recieved lots of help actually from here but there was just one comment on here about me selling my amp and me advertising that it's in perfect condition and "yikes" was the comment concerning it. That's what I was talking about it. I will try putting some known good EL84's in today... But I don't have a spare EF86. I'd like to apologize but I still find it odd. You do have it listed there as "It's literally *MINT* and perfect condition 100%" Yet, you are clearly working out some issues. I wish i could be more helpful to your issues, but I am not familiar with the amp And in a friendly humorous comment, I would not recommend the quote below Wow - I thought this was a friendly forum... I guess I'll just go back to The Gear Page. Much friendlier over here I seriously think there is nothing wrong with the amp cuz it's brand new, never been used. Why should there be anything wrong with it? The only issue I'm having is whether or not this amp is right and loud enough for me.
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Post by detuned on Oct 12, 2012 9:28:08 GMT -7
What mazzmaster said (pointing up).
If the amp's not for you, that's one thing, & you should certainly not hang on to a piece of gear you don't enjoy, but if it's a functionality issue, don't hesitate to contact the Doc.
He can be a little gruff at times, but he's got a heart of gold & a reputation (well-earned) to match. You WILL be taken care of. :-)
------ Additionally (reading your latest post) - tubes go bad all the time. Especially modern ones. Could be bumped in shipping, could just be flat out bad (sometimes they blow right after testing), could be a lot of things. That's what we deal with these days with modern tube quality (or lack thereof).
Your amp may be mechanically perfect, or it may have been dropped or otherwise damaged in shipping (UPS - among others - is legendary for their treatment of "fragile" packages). There may very well be damage you can't see. That happens too.
But 90% of the time, its a tube. Try starting there.
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Post by KeithA on Oct 12, 2012 9:42:38 GMT -7
Not my issue The original post explaining the problem looks like it was deleted Keith What was the original issue? I think I may be confusing you with Abandoned. If I recall, the amp sounded good with a Strat, but with humbuckers and/or pedals, the amp got way too compressed (or something to that effect). The OP mentioned along the way that it was his first amp with a greenback, IIRC. So, I thought that since the guitar sounded good clean (with the Strat), maybe the biggest issue was the sound of the greenback when pushed with distortion and that not being something the OP liked. As well, the greenback-loaded amp would likely by running at lower output than other speaker combos due to the lower sensitivity. Keith
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 12, 2012 9:57:44 GMT -7
This is correct... With my Strat everything sounds great and that's all the way up to medium gain.
But with my Hamer Studio Custom w/ '59 humbuckers and heavy overdrive (accomplished through pedals and when stacking pedals) it just so easily get to squishy and compressed and boxy.
I also tested this out with my buddy's Beatfoot SYOD2. Same thing, so it's not just my OD pedals.
This is also my first greenback. I still have my Maz Sr. 1x12 combo with a Gold in it for the time being. Maybe I'll trying plugging into that cab to see if that changes anything.
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 12, 2012 10:42:53 GMT -7
What was the original issue? I think I may be confusing you with Abandoned. If I recall, the amp sounded good with a Strat, but with humbuckers and/or pedals, the amp got way too compressed (or something to that effect). The OP mentioned along the way that it was his first amp with a greenback, IIRC. So, I thought that since the guitar sounded good clean (with the Strat), maybe the biggest issue was the sound of the greenback when pushed with distortion and that not being something the OP liked. As well, the greenback-loaded amp would likely by running at lower output than other speaker combos due to the lower sensitivity. Keith Gotcha'. You were commenting on the same things the OP noticed that I was. My 1x12 combo shipped with the Greenback too but my experience with humbuckers was the opposite of his. The clips I posted above with a HB and OD pedal were done with a WGS BH-HP, which is only 1dB louder than the GB, and they don't sound "thin, weak, compressed or boxy" to me. So, that's why I suspect there's a problem with the amp....or EDIT...maybe with the EQ settings...see next post.
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 12, 2012 10:52:43 GMT -7
This is correct... With my Strat everything sounds great and that's all the way up to medium gain. But with my Hamer Studio Custom w/ '59 humbuckers and heavy overdrive (accomplished through pedals and when stacking pedals) it just so easily get to squishy and compressed and boxy. I also tested this out with my buddy's Beatfoot SYOD2. Same thing, so it's not just my OD pedals. This is also my first greenback. I still have my Maz Sr. 1x12 combo with a Gold in it for the time being. Maybe I'll trying plugging into that cab to see if that changes anything. What settings are you using on the amp??? If you're running the Treble and Bass too far above 12:00 with the mode switch on HI, I could see how you might be getting too much compression, especially if you're stacking OD pedals and setting the pedal output level high. I run my M12 Bass at 12:00 and Treble around 9:30-10:00 to get a balanced higher headroom clean tone with a SC neck position and then hit that with various combinations of pedals and PUPs. Keep in mind that unlike traditional tonestacks, the M12 stack adds gain and distortion after 12:00, which is great if you're using the amp alone for OD but it may not be ideal when using tons of gain upfront in pedals. You'll just be adding compression on top of compression. The Treble and Bass act like normal EQ knobs up to 12:00 but add gain after that. So, consider the OFF to 12:00 range to be more like the normal range on most amps but then morphing into frequency-specific GAIN knobs beyond 12:00. Just for kicks, try my EQ settings (Bass=12:00, Treble=9:00-10:30) and also try using the mode switch on LO (and cranking volume more to get the same output level). The LO mode is now my favorite with pedals!
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Post by jesslm02 on Oct 12, 2012 11:17:54 GMT -7
It's also strange that one guitar, which happens to be the single coil guitar, sounds good. While the hamer with humbuckers sounds thin and weak. Not trying to state the obvious or belittle your troubleshooting skills, but... how does the hamer sound in comparison with the strat when plugged into the Maz Sr? Also, does the hamer have any coil-splitting capability?
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Post by mazmaster on Oct 12, 2012 11:32:27 GMT -7
It's also strange that one guitar, which happens to be the single coil guitar, sounds good. While the hamer with humbuckers sounds thin and weak. [...] In addition to bad tubes, which you'd think would sound bad witb the SC guitar too, this compressed, thin, weak sound is also exactly what happens when running too much gain and compression upfront into an amp which is itself too close to compressing or is already compressing. So, the more we talk about this, the more I'm thinking the EQ is set too high on the M12 and is adding too much gain/compression in the amp on top of the OD pedals out front.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 12, 2012 12:12:25 GMT -7
Ok so I tried everything out... New power tubes that I know are good and work, re-socketing all the tubes except Recitifer and 12ax7. I tried plugging my amp into a different Z 1x12 combo cab with a Celestion Gold in it. When it came to the tubes nothing changed which means nothing is wrong with my tubes at all. When I plugged the Gold combo cab the sound improved a good amount so maybe a different speaker would suit me better. Maybe a more efficient one. But none of these scenarios effect the loudness of the amp significantly.
I also tried your settings Volume: to taste on LO input, Bass- 12:00, Treble - 10:30. That did help a bit with compression and squashiness but it made it less full sounding which I didn't like. I think y'all were right about the controls all bring dialed in too high at first. I'm still not sure if this amp like higher gain tones being ran into it (by pedals).
It's still not as full as I want it to be. Maybe I should try that WGS speaker y'all have been talking about.
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 12, 2012 12:14:13 GMT -7
Oh and also - the issue concerning the SC vs HB had to do with the amount of gain I was running. I was running more gain with HB's and that's when the nasty squish was happening.
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