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Post by pcns on Jan 29, 2007 20:22:20 GMT -7
Hi guys, I haven't had much to chat with you all about since the Christmas guitar specials and the George L patch cable discussion. soooooo . . . . Lets play mythbusters!!Give me your best cable thought, wish you knew or wanted to try stories and I'll take a stab at cracking it. If I can't handle I am sure my tech Patty (also my wife) can. If all else fails I'll do some research and see if we can't all learn something together. Question? Myth? I heard if you do . . . bring 'em on and lets have some fun. Todd
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Post by Hohn on Jan 29, 2007 21:41:27 GMT -7
The cable myth I want busted is directionality. Logically, it seems that an AC signal would flow both directions and negate any advantage to directional superiority.
jh
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 29, 2007 23:28:50 GMT -7
OK, here's one that I think I know the answer to, but lets see how it turns out.
Switchcraft plugs have long been "the standard" plug. But I find the insulators shrink after a while. Is a plastic insulator superior in longevity to the type insulator used on Switchcraft plugs?
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Post by Strato on Jan 29, 2007 23:32:40 GMT -7
Here is a question:
Many people say that George L's are incredible, but they can corrode after awhile. Is this true? Can you just cut off a little bit of wire and make a new end to the cable? Are they worth the price?
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Post by Shannon on Jan 30, 2007 13:25:37 GMT -7
The cable myth I want busted is directionality. Logically, it seems that an AC signal would flow both directions and negate any advantage to directional superiority. jh Yes. I use George L's and I was told to always put the G towards the guitar. I can't really tell a difference,... but I still do it.
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Post by Phil (aka Phil) on Jan 31, 2007 7:02:41 GMT -7
Hohn, I think the directionality part is more for the shielding, which is connected at only one end of the cable to prevent a ground loop.
PDW
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Post by pcns on Jan 31, 2007 11:01:50 GMT -7
The cable myth I want busted is directionality. Logically, it seems that an AC signal would flow both directions and negate any advantage to directional superiority. jh Hi Hohn, I have not seen any real proof that does anything or that there is any directionality to cables. There are lots of marketing claims with words like the "theory behind this design is . . . " but I have not seen nor heard of any true blue engineering proof to back up these claims. The folks over at talkbass.com did a big test with some power cables a year or so ago with some very special, very expensive cords that made lots of claims. The cables were passed around and NOBODY could hear or see (using special equipment) and differences in the cable. I know one major company makes some claims about drian wires. In theory the claim in nice but I have seen any evidence that it works. Even for shielding and ground loops. AC is a two way street and the stuff we all learned in high school about the path of least resistance is still true. In Short, there is no proof that I have seen that there is directionality to cables, even with shielding. Todd
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Post by kruzty on Jan 31, 2007 11:26:17 GMT -7
I have a couple Planet Waves cables that show on the cable which end to plug into the guitar and which end to plug into the amp. I read the reason somewhere, but I forget it now...
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Post by pcns on Jan 31, 2007 14:34:33 GMT -7
The cable myth I want busted is directionality. Logically, it seems that an AC signal would flow both directions and negate any advantage to directional superiority. jh Hi Hohn, I have not seen any real proof that does anything or that there is any directionality to cables. There are lots of marketing claims with words like the "theory behind this design is . . . " but I have not seen nor heard of any true blue engineering proof to back up these claims. The folks over at talkbass.com did a big test with some power cables a year or so ago with some very special, very expensive cords that made lots of claims. The cables were passed around and NOBODY could hear or see (using special equipment) and differences in the cable. I know one major company makes some claims about drian wires. In theory the claim in nice but I have not seen any evidence that it works. Even for shielding and ground loops. AC is a two way street and the stuff we all learned in high school about the path of least resistance is still true. In Short, there is no proof that I have seen that there is directionality to cables, even with shielding. Todd
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Post by pcns on Jan 31, 2007 19:39:41 GMT -7
OK, here's one that I think I know the answer to, but lets see how it turns out. Switchcraft plugs have long been "the standard" plug. But I find the insulators shrink after a while. Is a plastic insulator superior in longevity to the type insulator used on Switchcraft plugs? Good question Benttop, I just pulled a brand new Switchcraft 1/4" connector out of a bin in our shop and the insulator is plastic. A few years ago cork was a very popular gasket material as well as insulator. You already pointed out one of its problems though, is it tends to shrink over time. Eventually the shrinkage in the connector can allow the tip to rotate inside the connector and can cause a paper clipping with the wires that are soldered on the other end. Another thing that can happen is the wires can twist and short out (either against each other or the back shell). When we build our cables we always put an extra piece of shrink tube over the soldered wires to prevent shorting. The other thing with the plastic insulator is I am sure it costs less than cork (although I cannot prove this) does and I would suspect that would be the main reason for the switch. I don't know when Switchcraft converted over though. We have been in business for 5 years now and they has always been plastic but I do have some cables in the house with the cork. From a sonic perspecitve, no sound quality difference. Todd
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 31, 2007 21:42:37 GMT -7
OK, here's one that I think I know the answer to, but lets see how it turns out. Switchcraft plugs have long been "the standard" plug. But I find the insulators shrink after a while. Is a plastic insulator superior in longevity to the type insulator used on Switchcraft plugs? Good question Benttop, I just pulled a brand new Switchcraft 1/4" connector out of a bin in our shop and the insulator is plastic. A few years ago cork was a very popular gasket material as well as insulator. You already pointed out one of its problems though, is it tends to shrink over time. Eventually the shrinkage in the connector can allow the tip to rotate inside the connector and can cause a paper clipping with the wires that are soldered on the other end. Another thing that can happen is the wires can twist and short out (either against each other or the back shell). When we build our cables we always put an extra piece of shrink tube over the soldered wires to prevent shorting. The other thing with the plastic insulator is I am sure it costs less than cork (although I cannot prove this) does and I would suspect that would be the main reason for the switch. I don't know when Switchcraft converted over though. We have been in business for 5 years now and they has always been plastic but I do have some cables in the house with the cork. From a sonic perspecitve, no sound quality difference. Todd Thanks for that - I didn't know they had switched to plastic! And I've been avoiding them all this time. I have some old ones here that are the previous insulators, and as you say, the tips are all loose and rotating. Not good! Now that they are plastic, I will put them back on my list of "that's ok with me"!
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Post by pcns on Feb 1, 2007 9:10:24 GMT -7
Here is a question: Many people say that George L's are incredible, but they can corrode after awhile. Is this true? Can you just cut off a little bit of wire and make a new end to the cable? Are they worth the price? Hi Strato, We had a long talk about this in another thread. Everyone has different experiences with cables and connectors so I will be making a couple of very general statements about solderless connectors. George L's use solderless connectors and Yes, they can oxidize because air can get into connection point and corrode the joint. How long this will take will depend on the world around you. If you live on the outter banks of NC where the air is salty it will happen faster, if you live on a sand dune it may never happen. As for trimming them, yes, trim them up and reassemble and you should fine. I don't like the reassemble part myself but to each his own. Are they worth the money? There are a lot of people who really like those cables and from what I have seen I don't think they are terribly overpriced. I've seen kits that allow to custom build your patch cables. Nice idea. Hope this helps, Todd
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captain38
Full Member
I followed you big river...
Posts: 198
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Post by captain38 on Feb 2, 2007 0:09:37 GMT -7
Okay PCNS...here's my deal...I've been making a new pedal board and had plans of doing all of the wiring from under the board (i.e. trailer trash board)...well, I was about to buy about $180 worth of George L's (alot of money to a poor guy like me.) I had always heard good things about them. Then I read all of the reviews on Harmony Central....wow...there were some horrible ones there. Most people said that they were a great cable...when they worked (about 1/2 the time)
My question...any other options that are that size for a real neat look to my board?...are the cables that bad, or are there just a bunch of dim bulbs putting them together?
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Post by pcns on Feb 2, 2007 8:26:39 GMT -7
Okay PCNS...here's my deal...I've been making a new pedal board and had plans of doing all of the wiring from under the board (i.e. trailer trash board)...well, I was about to buy about $180 worth of George L's (alot of money to a poor guy like me.) I had always heard good things about them. Then I read all of the reviews on Harmony Central....wow...there were some horrible ones there. Most people said that they were a great cable...when they worked (about 1/2 the time) My question...any other options that are that size for a real neat look to my board?...are the cables that bad, or are there just a bunch of dim bulbs putting them together? Hi Captain38, I read a lot of reviews too and with just about any mass produced product there are opportunities for errors (manufacturing errors in the components and build errors). As my own company has grown we have gone through some pains too (one time we shipped the wrong cable to wrong customer). Stuff happens ps. we correct that shipping problem Anyway, with a product like the George L's where the customer is responsible for the final assembly you can just imagine the range of talent that is available to put those cables together. When dealing with a cable does not have a possitive connector joinging the wire to the connections you can get strange results. Most of the snake cables you see at the mail order places or on ebay are solderless connectors (thats one reason why they are so inexpesive). Even those cables that come assembled from the factory are prone to failure. I don't want to be negative, though, toward a product that a lot of people really like and do not have problems with. For every example I can provide for a potential problem there are 10 people who will testify against it. As for options other than the George L's? I don't know of any short of working with a company directly and having custom length cables made for you. We recently had a customer make us a construction paper mock up of his pedal board so we could make cables that fit perfectly (you should have seen my face when I opened the envelope, it was a beautiful mock up). However, for the sake of the cable you don't want to use too short of a cable because it will stress the cable, the connector and the input jack on the pedal. Relaxed fit is good, it may not be as neat looking but it is good for the cable, if its good for the cable you'll sound better longer! Hope this helps, Todd
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captain38
Full Member
I followed you big river...
Posts: 198
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Post by captain38 on Feb 2, 2007 9:38:38 GMT -7
yeah that helps....thanks for the insight.
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Post by billyguitar on Feb 2, 2007 10:28:50 GMT -7
I've used George Ls on and off for at least 10 years. In all that time I've only had to remake two connections. With Harmony Central you need to read carefully to get a feeling whether or not the writer is normal or a fool.
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Post by pcns on Feb 2, 2007 12:36:47 GMT -7
I've used George Ls on and off for at least 10 years. In all that time I've only had to remake two connections. With Harmony Central you need to read carefully to get a feeling whether or not the writer is normal or a fool. Hi billyguitar, You point is well taken and I hope I covered the users ability to build cables in the discussion. You are also right about customer reviews. You do need to look at the whole picture with them. I do tend to trust customer reviews over magazine reviews though. Magazine review can be biased based on advertising dollars, or free goodies to the review. Your comments about the connectors, though, do support my thoughts about solderless connections. I am sure you did a great job putting your connectors together but still in time you can end up with problems, the nice thing about the George L's is they are repairable! There are many cables out there that are NOT repairable and those scare me. Anything with a molded end can be trouble and there are some others that are not molded but cannot be serviced. thanks, Todd
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Post by billyguitar on Feb 2, 2007 15:40:03 GMT -7
There are some people I wouldn't recommend George Ls to. Some people don't have any mechanical intuition. If a connection was acting up they wouldn't have a clue. They might think they've got a blown speaker or many other things. Not bragging by any means but I really have a sense of what is wrong right when i hear it act up. I'll go right to the problem and fix it. If you aren't very good at that sort of thing then definitely stay away from George Ls. I did have one that was acting up and it did take me a while to trace it. Instead of just being intermittent I was just losing volume. The volume was gradually dropping over a couple of gigs and just stayed down. Pretty soon it was bad enough that I figured out it was a particlar cable and so I re-made the connection and it was fine. I had never had problem before and not since then. That was weird. It must've been down to just one or two little wires trying to carry all of the signal. I'm not on here trying to say George Ls are all a guy/gal needs. I'm saying they do sound good. They are small and take up less room in the gig bag. But they can be trouble. I would recommend good sturdy cables like you make for a trouble free music career.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 2, 2007 20:41:20 GMT -7
I've used George Ls on and off for at least 10 years. In all that time I've only had to remake two connections. With Harmony Central you need to read carefully to get a feeling whether or not the writer is normal or a fool. Wow, I must be a lot harder on them then, because I've had them fail multiple times. I just had one go south on a gig in fact - the sound just faded down to nothing and I had to yank my guitar cord and plug straight in to finish the set.
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Post by pcns on Feb 5, 2007 10:11:05 GMT -7
I've used George Ls on and off for at least 10 years. In all that time I've only had to remake two connections. With Harmony Central you need to read carefully to get a feeling whether or not the writer is normal or a fool. Wow, I must be a lot harder on them then, because I've had them fail multiple times. I just had one go south on a gig in fact - the sound just faded down to nothing and I had to yank my guitar cord and plug straight in to finish the set. Hi Benttop, Its possible that you are either very rough on your cables, not assembling them properly or the situations you are using the cables is very demanding. With solderless connectors how you insert and remove the cable can be important. Always pull your cables from the connectors, never pull on the cable and try not to twist them or bend them. These should help them hold together. These are good practices for any cable. Hope this helps, Todd
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 6, 2007 23:00:04 GMT -7
Wow, I must be a lot harder on them then, because I've had them fail multiple times. I just had one go south on a gig in fact - the sound just faded down to nothing and I had to yank my guitar cord and plug straight in to finish the set. Hi Benttop, Its possible that you are either very rough on your cables, not assembling them properly or the situations you are using the cables is very demanding. With solderless connectors how you insert and remove the cable can be important. Always pull your cables from the connectors, never pull on the cable and try not to twist them or bend them. These should help them hold together. These are good practices for any cable. Hope this helps, Todd Yeah, I'm an old fart - learned that stuff many years ago and do treat them right. As far as assembly, I don't see that you have many options with GL's. I'm about through with them - had another fail on me tonight, and that's about enough. This is a cable that is a permanent install in my rack! I be looking for connectors that solder on this time. I have cables I built up for a band I was starting in 1984 that are still working because I treat them right, yet I've had three George-L failures in a month here. YIKES!
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Post by kruzty on Feb 7, 2007 7:04:57 GMT -7
benttop, when you assemble the George L's are you bending cable over while you screw on the top? If so, you are supposed to bend it just enough to get the threads started. That's the only thing I can think of that might be a problem.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 7, 2007 10:47:58 GMT -7
benttop, when you assemble the George L's are you bending cable over while you screw on the top? If so, you are supposed to bend it just enough to get the threads started. That's the only thing I can think of that might be a problem. Well for the right angle connectors, you have to bend it to get the cap on. In fact, the cap is what makes the ground connection by biting through the insulation. I've always been suspicious of this method. And the insulation sure isn't very durable. I've pulled cables out of my pedal board that had insulation scuffed through just from normal use. Anyway, three strikes and it's out!
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Post by billyguitar on Feb 7, 2007 11:46:22 GMT -7
Pull 'em out! Not everything works for everybody.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 7, 2007 15:31:41 GMT -7
Pull 'em out! Not everything works for everybody. Yep. But as I said in another thread, just about everyone wants to believe they've made the absolute smartest purchase that is humanly possible. Until they don't.
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Post by pcns on Feb 8, 2007 16:41:34 GMT -7
Great Posts guys! I've been enjoying answering the questions. So, is that it? No more questions??? I can't believe thats it already? How come the threads discussing cables keep circling back to George L's? Sound a bit like a love/hate relationship. I'm taking notes though, I want the love NOT the hate for my products. Long after you forget how much you paid for something you remember how much trouble it is or isn't. Thats what determins if it was worth the money. If its a hassle, it wasn't worth the money no matter how good it sounds or fun it is. No hassle, worth the money. Todd
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 8, 2007 18:05:29 GMT -7
Great Posts guys! I've been enjoying answering the questions. So, is that it? No more questions??? I can't believe thats it already? How come the threads discussion cables keep circling back to George L's? Sound a bit like a love/hate relationship. I'm taking notes though, I want the love NOT the hate for my products. Long after you forget how much you paid for something you remember how much trouble it is or isn't. Thats what determins if it was worth the money. If its a hassle, it wasn't worth the money no matter how good it sounds or fun it is. No hassle, worth the money. Todd OK, here's one. A number of years ago I tried the first Planet Waves cable that had those plugs with the springs. I found that on my guitar, those springs allowed the shank of the plug to cavitate just enough to disconnect at the tip! If I bumped the plug while playing, there would be a gap in the sound! So I took it back and got something else. Now I'm planning on replacing all of these George-L's in my rack, and I've asked around for recommendations. Almost everyone has recommended this Planet Waves kit that has 10 plugs and 10 feet of wire. And the plugs have those springs, like that one I didn't like. Any opinions on those springs? I have never found I needed that feature, so I don't know what to make of all these recommendations. Also, I'd love to throw some business your way. But I'm going to need several different lengths of cables, from a few inches to a few feet. What do you offer?
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Post by pcns on Feb 9, 2007 5:15:31 GMT -7
Great Posts guys! I've been enjoying answering the questions. So, is that it? No more questions??? I can't believe thats it already? How come the threads discussion cables keep circling back to George L's? Sound a bit like a love/hate relationship. I'm taking notes though, I want the love NOT the hate for my products. Long after you forget how much you paid for something you remember how much trouble it is or isn't. Thats what determins if it was worth the money. If its a hassle, it wasn't worth the money no matter how good it sounds or fun it is. No hassle, worth the money. Todd OK, here's one. A number of years ago I tried the first Planet Waves cable that had those plugs with the springs. I found that on my guitar, those springs allowed the shank of the plug to cavitate just enough to disconnect at the tip! If I bumped the plug while playing, there would be a gap in the sound! So I took it back and got something else. Now I'm planning on replacing all of these George-L's in my rack, and I've asked around for recommendations. Almost everyone has recommended this Planet Waves kit that has 10 plugs and 10 feet of wire. And the plugs have those springs, like that one I didn't like. Any opinions on those springs? I have never found I needed that feature, so I don't know what to make of all these recommendations. Also, I'd love to throw some business your way. But I'm going to need several different lengths of cables, from a few inches to a few feet. What do you offer? Hi Benttop, The springs are supposed to prevent ground loops, I've not seen any difference with them nor have I seen them in use other than tryouts. I've had bad buzz situations both playing live and in my home studio that were eventually cured with a good shielded cable. As for what PCNS offers. We are a custom shop, email me what you want to do and we'll build it. Some customers have sent us to scale drawings of the pedal boards and we've gone from there. drop me and email with your specifications todd@procablesnsound.com Todd
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 9, 2007 6:48:24 GMT -7
OK, I'll have to figure out what it is I need first!
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Post by mudskipper on Feb 9, 2007 7:45:50 GMT -7
why are most cables so inflexible? the worst ones would remain coiled between the guitar jack and floor like a suspended spring. some thicker ones resist coiling and remain straight but there are other problems with that.
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