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Post by pcns on Feb 12, 2007 9:43:16 GMT -7
why are most cables so inflexible? the worst ones would remain coiled between the guitar jack and floor like a suspended spring. some thicker ones resist coiling and remain straight but there are other problems with that. Good question, as you can well imagine there are several factors that will affect how flexible a cable is. I'll try and keep this a brief as possible and will expand the discussion as needed based on the replies that come up. These are in NO particular order . . . and are generalizations (I am sure there is an exception to everyone of these) 1) Temperature, needless to say the colder it is the less flexible the cable will be. This will vary with different jacket materials that are used. Rubber type jackets are softest at warmer tempuratures but also get stiffer when they get cold. Seoprene (this is true of a lot of urethane products) and PVC are less affected by temperature. 2) Jacket thickness. Obviously the thicker the jacket the stiffer it will be. Rubber is flexible but is also easy to tear. Rubber jacket cables will tend to be thicker to make them stronger. This will tend to make them stiffer as well. Higher quality products like the ones mentioned above are stronger materials and can be thinner. This is why you see some cables that have a huge outside diamter and a cable that is the same gauge will have a smaller outside diameter. Better materials will allow the jacket to be thinner and therefore more flexible 3) Cable Age. I don't mean to pick on rubber jackets but . . . . . .. Rubber tends to dryout faster than over materials and gets stiffer with age. For instance, old cars came from the factor with rubber bushings in the control arms and other suspension parts. They get stiff and crack with age. Modern bushings are available with Urathane products that don't dryout and don't get stiffer with age improving the ride of that old classic. Cable jackets are the same way. 4) Wire gauge and strand count. The thicker the wire (lower gauge number - Note: 12 gauge is thicker than 18 gauge and so on) will result in a stiffer cable. However, in most cases thicker wire means more signal so the thicker cable is desireable. To offset this stiffness you go to a higher strand count on the wire. For instance, instead of having one solid piece of 12 gauge wire in a speaker cable (like home electrical wire) you could have 65 small wires making up the 12 gauge diameter. This will make cable more flexible. 5) Shielding. Because of the lower power being transferred through them, signal cables (instrument, mic, snake cables) use shields to protect them from outside noise, like RF interference. Shields have a few basic designs. Foil shielding is popular in snakes because it is low cost and is 100% (note: foil shields have come a long way in recent years, good quality foil shielded snake cables perform very well nowadays compared to the past). The general down side of foil shielding is they are relatively fragile (especially for a cable that is going to move around with the performer) and relatively stiff. The other two types of shielding you will run into are braided shields and twisted shields. These are more flexible and not prone to breaking. Braided is a more complete shield and will generally perform better than twisted. This topic could be expanded on. 6) Cable coiling. This is in refference to the spiral or spring affect that was mentioned in the orginal question. How you coil the cables will affect how straight the cable will lay out for you. Using an over under technique is best. See the following link for details. procablesnsound.com/page_52.aspOkay, that should cover most of it. I would be happy to explain any of these in more detail or defend my possition if needed Todd
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captain38
Full Member
I followed you big river...
Posts: 198
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Post by captain38 on Feb 12, 2007 13:19:33 GMT -7
I'm about to make my George l's and I've seen people talking about a VOR...I'm supposing voltage reader? Is that correct?...and if so what is the standard or the norm for most cables? Thanks!!!
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Post by pcns on Feb 13, 2007 4:54:01 GMT -7
I'm about to make my George l's and I've seen people talking about a VOR...I'm supposing voltage reader? Is that correct?...and if so what is the standard or the norm for most cables? Thanks!!! I'm going to defer this one to my tech and will post the reply
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Post by mudskipper on Feb 13, 2007 7:29:07 GMT -7
Okay, that should cover most of it. I would be happy to explain any of these in more detail or defend my possition if needed Todd thanks, Tood, for a long answer. i would agree with your points 1~5 and have considered them in the past. i actually have a 20' from Neutrik (i know that they are known for their plugs but this is a Neutrik brand guitar cable) that i got in the 90's that i still use that behaves well. that cable never has any coiling/spiral problems at most temprature. but then again i usually don't do outdoor gigs in the winter. Planet Waves cables are pretty "compliant" and seem to resist coiling. it seems to take some of the topend out even at 10', though. but this would be entirely different story. as for the point 6, i believe there was a video floating around that actually demonstrate this. i don't remember where i had seen it, though. i'll post a link if i find it.
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Post by pcns on Feb 13, 2007 9:55:58 GMT -7
[/quote] that cable never has any coiling/spiral problems at most temprature. but then again i usually don't do outdoor gigs in the winter. as for the point 6, i believe there was a video floating around that actually demonstrate this. i don't remember where i had seen it, though. i'll post a link if i find it. [/quote] I try not play out doors in the winter either, especially since I live in Michigan. However, my cables do end up in the car to and from gigs and cold can affect them that way. Also, a video on cable coiling would be awesome, please post it if you find it. It really does make a difference in your cables life cycle. thanks, Todd
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Post by pcns on Feb 13, 2007 10:01:04 GMT -7
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captain38
Full Member
I followed you big river...
Posts: 198
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Post by captain38 on Feb 13, 2007 12:47:38 GMT -7
Yesterday at 1:19pm, captain38 wrote:I'm about to make my George l's and I've seen people talking about a VOR...I'm supposing voltage reader? Is that correct?...and if so what is the standard or the norm for most cables? Thanks!!! I'm going to defer this one to my tech and will post the reply
Did I finally stump you? hahaha!! J/K I'm sure your tech will have just the right answer.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 13, 2007 13:14:41 GMT -7
I know when I build George-L's I use a VOM - Volt Ohm Meter - to check for continuity and short circuits. Perhaps this is what you're referring to?
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Post by billyguitar on Feb 13, 2007 14:03:55 GMT -7
I can't recall ever hearing of a VOR either.
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Post by pcns on Feb 13, 2007 15:47:09 GMT -7
Hi Guys, I deferred to my tech because I had never heard of metering cables either, other than continuity or shorts. Our second builder uses a meter that can tell him the length of the cable, pretty cool stuff. There is a thread on the forum somewhere about George L's where there is some discussion about this, I'll look and see if I can find it. Todd
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Post by pcns on Feb 13, 2007 16:30:16 GMT -7
I found something from guitarstan in the George L thread we had going a while back. Here is what he wrote: <<<<<<I've been using George L's for a few years and no problems so far. I use the guitar chords as well my pedal board interconnects. Take your time and check each cable with a VOM. I have had to redo a few ends when the resistance reading measured a few ohms, should be at zero. >>>>> Todd
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captain38
Full Member
I followed you big river...
Posts: 198
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Post by captain38 on Feb 14, 2007 0:43:34 GMT -7
Wow!!! Okay, I'm a total dolt...I'll admit it!...Sorry fellas...I goof up one letter and...well, we see what happens. It MUST have been a VOM. I tried finding the old thread I saw to no avail and I relied on the ol' noggen'. Boy did it fail me! haha! That was the exact post that I saw earlier pcns. Thanks billyguitar and benttop as well...that one really had me scratchin' my head....what can I say?...I'm just a plier packin' peon around here.! thanks a milliion paul
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Post by pcns on Feb 14, 2007 4:27:47 GMT -7
Wow!!! Okay, I'm a total dolt...I'll admit it!...Sorry fellas...I goof up one letter and...well, we see what happens. It MUST have been a VOM. I tried finding the old thread I saw to no avail and I relied on the ol' noggen'. Boy did it fail me! haha! That was the exact post that I saw earlier pcns. Thanks billyguitar and benttop as well...that one really had me scratchin' my head....what can I say?...I'm just a plier packin' peon around here.! thanks a milliion paul Hey Captain38, no need to back track and call yourself names! The fool is the person who doesn't ask the question and remains ignorant. We are all friends here, no better place to ask questions than amoungst friends. By the way, you had me scratching my head too, that should worth something! lololololol Todd
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Post by mudskipper on Feb 14, 2007 9:50:26 GMT -7
yup, that's the one. i'm glad you found it and posted the link. thanks.
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Post by pcns on Feb 14, 2007 12:35:14 GMT -7
whiles I was at it I added the cable coiling video link to my website too, its nice that they allow links to their video. I was thinking I was going to have to make myself and just couldn't see flying someone like jgleaton up to Michigan so that I could have a Dr. Z player to shoot the video! lolololol Todd
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 14, 2007 13:47:07 GMT -7
I made every guy in our band watch that video. But only my cables continue to be wrapped that way...
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Post by billyguitar on Feb 14, 2007 16:03:15 GMT -7
I've watched it several times and for the life of me, I can't remember how it's done!
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Post by pcns on Feb 16, 2007 5:49:26 GMT -7
I've watched it several times and for the life of me, I can't remember how it's done! to quote one of my guitar heros, "its a way of life" FZ practice, practice and more practice. When band would do shows we just pile all the cables up in the middle of the stage and then carefully coil everything up. You can get real fast at it when you've 20 or 30 at one time. Okay, I'm ready for more questions. Whats next!!! Todd
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Post by Telemanic on Feb 16, 2007 10:40:51 GMT -7
Seems to depend on the designers use of materials. Some of the solid core proponents ( non-stranded ) feel they need to use a really stiff thick insulator to among other things protect that one lonely wire, from damage incurred while say stepping on the cable, or to help prevent breakage from repetitive bending in the same spot. The stiff insulation will limit some of the deformation. Also it seems the materials themselves contribute, ie. some high end guy's use teflon insulators, which may be un-surpassed in certain ways affecting the sound of the the cable, but are STIFF and and compared to pvc or rubber, VERY expensive. And lastly some of the core conductors themselves on these boutique cables are pretty thick. Combine that with some thick teflon, and ya might as well be coiling up a whip antenna! Just some observations.
-PS- what a dope , i just realized i commented off of page one, ne-v-er mind !
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Post by pcns on Feb 17, 2007 5:35:53 GMT -7
Hi Telemanic, You did cover an item I didn't mention and that is packing materials. The materials used inside the cable make a big difference in how still a cable is. Good point. Todd
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Post by pcns on Feb 19, 2007 6:16:57 GMT -7
Alright, this was fun, whats next? Anymore questions?? I'm surprised I didn't get any series parallel questions or anything related to impedance. I'll keep checking back in case there is anything else. Todd
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 19, 2007 7:35:56 GMT -7
Alright, this was fun, whats next? Anymore questions?? I'm surprised I didn't get any series parallel questions or anything related to impedance. I'll keep checking back in case there is anything else. Todd OK, your golden opportunity. Maybe you know, maybe not: what is the mean time between failure of push on plugs vs soldered on plugs? I ask because I'm planning to switch back to all soldered plugs after several high profile failures here.
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Post by pcns on Feb 19, 2007 7:59:10 GMT -7
lololololol, great question!! I love mean time failure questions. Lots of room for BS lololol. Seriously though, I don't know of anyone who would have data on this so lets try and generate some of our own based on what I can pull together from the forum and my experience with my company. Based on what I have seen on this forum there are folks who have solderless failures lets say on average 2 times per year. Some guys have no problems, some have a small number and some have several. So we can be conservative and say 2 per year on average. Sound fair? My company has been in business for 5 years building cables. We have sold many thousdands of cable over those years and many of them are multi channel snakes with many many connections. We have had zero warranty returns for failed solder joints. We have only hade 12 warranty returns overall but zero in the soldered joint failure area. Lets say, for fairness, that one did fail and we didn't hear about it. So if we take 1 and divide it by 5 years you could say 1/5 of a failure per year. I know, this math is fuzzy voodo math. I am comparying 5 z forum members and their 20 to 50 cables between them with the 6,000 or so cables I am pulling my warranty information on. If you wanted to factor in the volume of cable for a ratio the soldered joint failures approach zero really fast, in fact very fast. This all said, I am certain I am going to get all kids of "my soldered cables failed" posts. This could then lead to a good discussion about a good solder joint and why they may fail. Todd
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 19, 2007 8:25:34 GMT -7
I think your extrapolation is pretty fair actually. To me, any failure is unacceptable because you can't control when it might happen. Sure enough, one of mine was right in the middle of a solo during the second set one night. I'm looking down at my pedal board with about thirty different patch cables and thinking, "This is not the time I want to be searching for a bad cable!"
On the other hand, I built about fifteen cables back in 1984 to assemble a PA system - most of these ended up back in my guitar bag over time. They are all still functioning.
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Post by Hohn on Feb 19, 2007 15:20:37 GMT -7
My Lyric HG is stiff because it's a solid conductor, not stranded.
jh
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Post by pcns on Feb 21, 2007 8:31:40 GMT -7
Hi Hohn, Sounds like you have a coax instrument cable? The solid core would make that very stiff, much like the cable that is run into houses to deliver cable TV, that stuff is very stiff. I have seen guys use regular electrical cable to power speakers too, not really anything wrong with it, just stiff. Todd
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Post by billyguitar on Feb 22, 2007 11:32:53 GMT -7
Here's a question that is a little off track. Recently I bought a pair of M-Audio BX8a powered studio monitors. You're supposed to use tip/ring/sleeve cables to hook them up. I didn't want to buy new cables if I didn't have to so I hooked them up with a spare set of George Ls. they seem to work fine. I'm assuming the TRS cable is to reduce radio interference. Just wondering if you know about this scenario.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 22, 2007 14:50:51 GMT -7
OK here's one. In choosing cable for guitar level signals, which parameter should take precenence: capacitance, or % shielding? Or is there another parameter (impedance?) that is even more important to pay attention to?
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Post by Telemanic on Feb 22, 2007 16:27:57 GMT -7
Yeah, the Lyric HG is a symetrical coax. No signal thru the shielding wire, ... and it uses 20awg for the twin core wires. I guess pretty thick, but it's also got really stiff insulation, i thinks its some kind of enhanced PVC. They're Amazing, but i think you also better be able to really baby 'em, ... i mean they're pretty tough, but just get the feeling that i can tweak em bad if not careful. I'm actualy getting used to it now.
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Post by pcns on Feb 23, 2007 8:01:11 GMT -7
Here's a question that is a little off track. Recently I bought a pair of M-Audio BX8a powered studio monitors. You're supposed to use tip/ring/sleeve cables to hook them up. I didn't want to buy new cables if I didn't have to so I hooked them up with a spare set of George Ls. they seem to work fine. I'm assuming the TRS cable is to reduce radio interference. Just wondering if you know about this scenario. Hi Billyguitar, So, why do you have spare george l's? lolololol Sorry, I could leave that alone lolol You are correct, they will work just fine. You assumption about using a balanced signal to help with noise is also correct. Just to add to the fun though, if you try using a balanced cable as a stereo cable that would not work because a balanced cable is wired differently from a stereo cable even though they look the same on the outside. Good question!! Todd
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