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Post by codycarrig on Oct 31, 2023 10:13:25 GMT -7
Hi friends,
I need an attenuation solution for my amp which is taking my head off at the moment. For a while, I was going to bite the bullet and get the Power Station, which seems to be the universal pick for no compromise attenuation. However, I gig fairly often and the thought of lugging another piece of heavy tube gear around with me gives me a headache. So I'm curious, between the PS and something like the Dr. Z Brake-Lite (or even the Tone King Iron Man II) how much sound quality am I sacrificing going with the Z? For context, I'm taking my amp from too 'loud for a small club' to 'small club gig' volume, we're not talking bedroom volumes here. I'd rather use a different amp at that point.
Thanks!
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Post by scottyc13 on Oct 31, 2023 12:34:53 GMT -7
I haven’t used a Power Station, but I have used Brake Lites and Weber Mini Mass. I found the Brake Lite was better at keeping the tone going down to level 3 than the Weber. At 1 or 2, it is really good. The Weber is better at going very low because it has a Treble adjustment. The Weber can get much lower in volume than the Brake Lite in terms of dB.
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Post by RickJames on Oct 31, 2023 14:29:12 GMT -7
I’d rather see you invest in the right amp, if I understand your situation). The flexibility of Doc’s PPIMV amps is unparallel in my opinion………… and also help reduce tube, fatigue and failure, my two. Cents BTW, welcome to the forum.
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Post by GuitarZ on Oct 31, 2023 14:56:36 GMT -7
In my opinion, no matter which way you go, there is some tradeoff. The key is finding the right solution that gives you 'your sound'.
I approached this differently. I had my Maz Jr and was pretty happy with the master volume. After some time, I picked up an AirBrake, cranked the master and was like "Wow. I've got a new amp!" Fast forward to my Ghia. I simply max the volume and use the AirBrake to tailor to volume. It gives me the sound I'm looking for. At the bedroom level, I start to notice the tone changing. I typically run my AirBrake at 3 or 4 clicks down. So, I got to 'my sound' with the AirBrake already part of the equation.
I like a crunchy sound. I typically don't use pedals. And, after experimentation with preamp and power tubes crunch/tone (via my Maz Jr), I find I definitely like the extra grit provided when the power tubes are pitching into the crunch.
I had been scratching my head on the PPIMV. I finally watched one of Doc's videos where he explains the difference between PPIMV and attenuators and mentions that if you like power tube crunch, an attenuator is the right path. That's me.
I also have a UA Ox. It seems to have less effect on tone as you crank it in. However, I like the finer level of attenuation (2 dB steps) of the AirBrake in live situations.
That's my two cents.
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Post by adam on Oct 31, 2023 18:21:54 GMT -7
What is your amp?
Anything in the signal path will change the sound. Sometimes you might like what an attenuator does to the sound, sometimes you won't, but it will change it for sure. And I'm with you 100% with lugging something else around, particularly another tube power amp where those tubes can fail and another power source. It might work great, but yeah, but pain in the arse.
To what RickJames said, there is a lot of merit to that. If you can get there, it's the ultimate in simplicity and practicality.
To What GuitarZ said, there is a ton of merit to that too. If the power tubes are making the tone you want, you won't get there with a master volume and maybe an attenuator is the way to go. It depends on the amp, and you mostly.
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Post by RickJames on Oct 31, 2023 18:26:17 GMT -7
My favorite amp is my Jetta! Awesome….
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Post by doctorice on Nov 1, 2023 7:12:28 GMT -7
The Power Station offers both attenuation and additional power, right? If the issue is too much output level, then why pay for the additional power? BrakeLites are very good, but tone can be affected. Is that the BL's doing? Probably not so much: how hard the speaker is being pushed is part of the tone soup. The signal going into a purely passive attenuator like the BL might be slightly changed (tone, phase, etc. -- I'm not sure but these are possibilities) when leaving the BL, but the speaker likely is getting less power, maybe a lot less at high attenuation settings.
My $0.02, fwiw, is that the combination of the speaker not getting a proper workout and how our ears perceive frequencies differently when volume is low are more significant in the tone equation than any "tone suck" coming from the BL.
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Post by bubs42 on Nov 1, 2023 16:03:48 GMT -7
For Z Amps, my money goes toward the Brake Lite/Air Brake specially for your situation.
You can also try a different speaker with less DB output.
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Post by RickJames on Nov 1, 2023 16:18:27 GMT -7
If you plan to use an attenuator, I would suggest buying tubes and stack them deep!
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on Nov 3, 2023 8:39:22 GMT -7
I've used BrakeLite, Weber Mass, and PowerStation ... the PowerStation was hands down the best at providing the "full bore" sound of the amp being driven, at any volume. The PowerStation essentially "re-amps" your amp, rather than attenuating. Yes, it's expensive, and yes if you don't want/need the ability to increase the volume of a small amp that capability is included but will be unused. But the PS also provides an effects loop and a DI out.
I used the power station with my therapy, when I put EL34's in it and dimed it ... I got that glorious Marshall-eque tone at bedroom levels. Sure, you don't get the speaker contribution to the tone but that's just physics and nothing you can do about it.
I've said many times that I wished i had known about the PowerStation decades ago ... it would have been one of the first things I bought because it opens up literally any amp to any situation.
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Post by Seńor Verde on Nov 4, 2023 6:59:32 GMT -7
A former bandmate used a Power Station and it crapped out twice at gigs. I don't remember what he said was the cause, but it wasn't a fuse and was unusable to use until it was repaired. I've never heard of a Brake Lite, or any other version having reliability issues.
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Post by GuitarZ on Nov 4, 2023 8:10:56 GMT -7
codycarrig - Where do you run your amp at volume to get your desired sound and tone? How do you set the V1 and V2? Should have asked earlier. Maybe you are pushing the power tubes, or maybe not. I went and looked at the Z Master and realized that Doc baked some additional magic in there with the mismatch between the 3x10's and the transformer. Per the Z Master description, - It uses three, 10” paper voice coil, alnico speakers in a parallel wiring configuration, specifically designed for this amp. This creates an intentional impedance mismatch between the speakers and output transformer, which is an integral part of the sonic recipe of the amp.
That makes it tougher. No matter what you plug in, it will be changing the transformer/speaker mojo. Eiiy! If we could just plug in and play, things would be easy. Those dang volume needs always complicate things.
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