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Post by davidp158 on Feb 2, 2023 8:04:37 GMT -7
I just picked up a used Cure 1x12 combo with the Z12 speaker, with a build date of 2017. The amp looks immaculate, and having owned a MAZ Sr, Carmen Ghia and now the owner of a MAZ 2x10 18 JR w/reverb, I jumped at the chance to get a lighter combo amp for hitting jam sessions. I watched some YT demos and felt confident that I could get tones I'd like with my Tele. Unfortunately, I'm looking for advice on a seriously harsh top end issue that I will try to describe.
NOTE: I fully realize the 1x12 Cure is a much different amp than my 2x10 MAZ Jr, and do not expect them to yield the same tones. However, the MAZ produces excellent string balance while my Cure balance is way out of whack.
The Cure I bought seems to have strange EQ response, so there may be a tube mismatch or other issue. The most balanced string tone setting I can currently get is with treble at 7:30, mid at 10:00, bass at 1:30, with master and level full up. The E string on my Tele becomes incredibly brittle and thin with the treble knob at 7:00 or above. It sounds like there is an Aphex Aural Exiter (old tech) on just the high E string. The overall tone "out of balance" (best way I can describe it), as I get shrill high end on my high E string while the G and D are pure midrange (no highs, no lows), and the A and low E lack definition (due to lowering the treble control). The same string balance issues happen on the neck pickup, but to a lesser degree. Another way to describe the overall tone is that the amp has an overly aggressive bright switch and I need to turn it off.
As I need the tone stack to tame the extreme highs, the foot switch is not a usable feature for me. It seems like a cool feature, and may work well with humbuckers, but the result is just too "raw" for me.
The first thing I tried was to patch the MAZ 2x10 speakers into the Cure. That was a big step in the right direction, but the high E string still doesn't blend with the rest of the strings. I've read other posts on this forum that some have tried other speakers but it seems that many (most) seem to think the Z12 is the perfect speaker for this amp. I don't doubt the doctor's design and speaker choice, which leads me to wonder if there is an issue with the amp. That lead me to swapping the rectifier tube and first preamp tube, but to no avail.
I'm open to any and all suggestions to sort this out. I love all the Dr. Z amps I've owned, especially my current MAZ Jr, and look forward to putting the Cure into service soon.
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Post by John on Feb 2, 2023 9:13:57 GMT -7
I don't think swapping the rec tube will do anything. Those don't really effect tone.
Try swapping all the other tubes....especially the power tubes. Does one glow red more than the other?
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Post by davidp158 on Feb 2, 2023 9:49:16 GMT -7
I don't think swapping the rec tube will do anything. Those don't really effect tone. Try swapping all the other tubes....especially the power tubes. Does one glow red more than the other? Thanks for the reply. I will check the other preamp tubes. Neither power tube is glowing red, or appear to glow visually different than the other.
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Post by Seńor Verde on Feb 2, 2023 9:56:27 GMT -7
I'd retube with what Doc recommends. Also, swapping the 5AR4 rectifier for a 5U4 seemed to mellow out the highs on my Cure.
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Post by nick0 on Feb 2, 2023 10:23:20 GMT -7
Getting used amps can be a crap shoot. I've got a 2017 cure. I bought it new. It's killer. Just had it at a little jam night. Full, round, balanced, all the things. My buddy had a blues jr. He said (talking about the jr) "this amp sounds good till you play that thing!" Pointing at the Cure.
Anyway, sounds like this is definitely NOT normal. Where are you located? Close to the CLE? First thing I would do is to reach out to Don at dr z Repairs via email on the site. He can definitely point you in the right direction. I've had all my used Dr Z amps checked up by the factory. That way you know its right on. They price the service very fair and stand behind their work.
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Post by davidp158 on Feb 2, 2023 11:11:43 GMT -7
Getting used amps can be a crap shoot. I've got a 2017 cure. I bought it new. It's killer. Just had it at a little jam night. Full, round, balanced, all the things. My buddy had a blues jr. He said (talking about the jr) "this amp sounds good till you play that thing!" Pointing at the Cure. Anyway, sounds like this is definitely NOT normal. Where are you located? Close to the CLE? First thing I would do is to reach out to Don at dr z Repairs via email on the site. He can definitely point you in the right direction. I've had all my used Dr Z amps checked up by the factory. That way you know its right on. They price the service very fair and stand behind their work. I'm in Richmond, VA but I will reach out to Don to see what he recommends. I'm optimistic that the amp will sound amazing once I get this sorted out. I love the compact size and weight, and expect that will have a contributing effect on the overall tone. I just find my 2x10 MAZ Jr. a bit heavy for this old dog.
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Post by davidp158 on Feb 2, 2023 11:12:57 GMT -7
Getting used amps can be a crap shoot. I've got a 2017 cure. I bought it new. It's killer. Just had it at a little jam night. Full, round, balanced, all the things. My buddy had a blues jr. He said (talking about the jr) "this amp sounds good till you play that thing!" Pointing at the Cure. Anyway, sounds like this is definitely NOT normal. Where are you located? Close to the CLE? First thing I would do is to reach out to Don at dr z Repairs via email on the site. He can definitely point you in the right direction. I've had all my used Dr Z amps checked up by the factory. That way you know its right on. They price the service very fair and stand behind their work. Thanks for the suggestion about the rectifier. I've read that it will effect tone on some amps, but have not experienced that (yet).
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Post by scottyc13 on Feb 2, 2023 13:34:52 GMT -7
I'd retube with what Doc recommends. Also, swapping the 5AR4 rectifier for a 5U4 seemed to mellow out the highs on my Cure. Careful swapping rectifiers. The 5U4 needs 3 amps for its filament heating whereas the 5AR4 needs only 2. The PT needs to rated for 3A for the 5 volts supply otherwise it can really be stressed. Also, rectifiers have limits on the capacitance of the reservoir cap. A 5AR4 can take up to a 60uF first filter cap. The 5U4 can only take a 40uF cap there. Without know the PT spec or cap values, I would ask Dr Z if swapping rectifiers is okay.
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Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Feb 2, 2023 14:43:53 GMT -7
I've been running a 5U4 in my Cure for years with no trouble. Sounds and feels great. Doc over-specs his transformers and they will support the filament requirements.
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Post by pcns on Feb 2, 2023 17:30:12 GMT -7
I'm wondering if the speaker needs some break in, it may be used but it may not have been played much? Or the opposite is true, someone play it like crazy and maybe the output tubes are needing to be replaced my 2 cents, Todd
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Post by Don A on Feb 2, 2023 18:25:58 GMT -7
My Cure is a bit bright- I have the bass set higher than the treble- but it's far from harsh. The foot switch makes the amp fatter and louder rather than harsher. My amp is a few years old with the original 12AX7, 12AT7, 6V6, & 5AR4 tubes.
Edited to add that I mainly play a Tele style guitar.
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Post by adam on Feb 2, 2023 18:33:43 GMT -7
1. I don't own one of these and never heard one, but first thought is sorry the amp isn't working for you.
2. The beauty of buying a used Z is that you can send back to the manufacturer and they will make it like new, even if it's a discontinued model. Buying used is a crapshoot. I bought a couple used Z's, one was smoking on delivery and I sent it in. Second, no problems at all. I would send it in and pay a little extra to make sure the amp is right. So maybe you have to put some money into it to make it right, or maybe just return it because something must be wrong.
3. You go into a lot o detail with your tele and what you are hearing based on each string. It kind of sounds like your guitar is the problem, or at least part of the problem. I have a Mexican tele and custom shop tele and they are worlds apart. Sometimes I can play the mex tele into an amp it sounds fine, and sometimes it just sounds like arse compared the custom shop one.
It really sounds like both the amp and guitar are messed up to me.Best of luck whatever you decide to do with it.
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Post by Don A on Feb 2, 2023 20:16:21 GMT -7
How high do you have the Volume set (not the overall volume from the Level control, but the Volume control itself)? This amp has a bright cap on the Volume control. Increasing the volume level makes it seem less bright before it makes it much more dirtier. Mine is usually set between 11:00 and 1:00.
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Post by davidp158 on Feb 3, 2023 6:49:19 GMT -7
1. I don't own one of these and never heard one, but first thought is sorry the amp isn't working for you. 2. The beauty of buying a used Z is that you can send back to the manufacturer and they will make it like new, even if it's a discontinued model. Buying used is a crapshoot. I bought a couple used Z's, one was smoking on delivery and I sent it in. Second, no problems at all. I would send it in and pay a little extra to make sure the amp is right. So maybe you have to put some money into it to make it right, or maybe just return it because something must be wrong. 3. You go into a lot o detail with your tele and what you are hearing based on each string. It kind of sounds like your guitar is the problem, or at least part of the problem. I have a Mexican tele and custom shop tele and they are worlds apart. Sometimes I can play the mex tele into an amp it sounds fine, and sometimes it just sounds like arse compared the custom shop one. It really sounds like both the amp and guitar are messed up to me.Best of luck whatever you decide to do with it. Thanks for the detailed reply, but I can confirm the guitar is not the problem. It sounds fine with my Dr. Z MAZ 18 and every other amp I've ever played it through. Having played the guitar for nearly 20 years, I know it pretty well. BTW, I also tested my Dr. Z Cure amp with my PRS Single Cut (humbuckers) and the same tonal issues are apparent. What I'm hearing is likely the nature of the amp, the tonal response of the speaker, or an issue with the amp. I'll find a solution one way or another.
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Post by davidp158 on Feb 3, 2023 7:18:50 GMT -7
How high do you have the Volume set (not the overall volume from the Level control, but the Volume control itself)? This amp has a bright cap on the Volume control. Increasing the volume level makes it seem less bright before it makes it much more dirtier. Mine is usually set between 11:00 and 1:00. I set the input gain (volume knob) around 9 or 10:00 to avoid input clipping, which starts pretty early with this amp. I have tried it at higher settings, but don't like the harsh clipping. I don't think that it lessened the shrill E string issue I'm hearing, but I will test it again. Maybe a lower gain preamp tube in the first stage will clean up some of the early stage distortion. FWIW, I have tried various combinations of the input gain, master and level controls. There is more low-midrange "girth" when the master and level controls are full up, but the shrill E string issue remains.
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Post by davidp158 on Feb 3, 2023 7:24:28 GMT -7
I'm thinking the issue is the Z12 speaker is either damaged, or just too bright for my taste. I have played the Cure through my MAZ 18 2x10 cabinet, and the tones are more balanced, although still a bit bright. I just played the Cure through a Celestion G12P-80 (aka "Seventy 80") in an old Tech21 Power Engine 60 cabinet, and that also sounds more balanced than the Z12 speaker.
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Post by Don A on Feb 3, 2023 7:45:16 GMT -7
How high do you have the Volume set (not the overall volume from the Level control, but the Volume control itself)? This amp has a bright cap on the Volume control. Increasing the volume level makes it seem less bright before it makes it much more dirtier. Mine is usually set between 11:00 and 1:00. I set the input gain (volume knob) around 9 or 10:00 to avoid input clipping, which starts pretty early with this amp. I have tried it at higher settings, but don't like the harsh clipping. I don't think that it lessened the shrill E string issue I'm hearing, but I will test it again. Maybe a lower gain preamp tube in the first stage will clean up some of the early stage distortion. FWIW, I have tried various combinations of the input gain, master and level controls. There is more low-midrange "girth" when the master and level controls are full up, but the shrill E string issue remains. The harsh clipping that you mentioned concerns me. My Cure distorts pleasantly as I crank the volume control (of course, my idea of pleasant distortion and yours may be very different). Also, it distorts a little later with a Telecaster than with humbuckers. It makes me think there may be an issue with your amp, probably tubes.
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Post by frankie on Feb 3, 2023 10:57:50 GMT -7
How high do you have the Volume set (not the overall volume from the Level control, but the Volume control itself)? This amp has a bright cap on the Volume control. Increasing the volume level makes it seem less bright before it makes it much more dirtier. Mine is usually set between 11:00 and 1:00. I set the input gain (volume knob) around 9 or 10:00 to avoid input clipping, which starts pretty early with this amp. I have tried it at higher settings, but don't like the harsh clipping. I don't think that it lessened the shrill E string issue I'm hearing, but I will test it again. Maybe a lower gain preamp tube in the first stage will clean up some of the early stage distortion. FWIW, I have tried various combinations of the input gain, master and level controls. There is more low-midrange "girth" when the master and level controls are full up, but the shrill E string issue remains. There might be an issue with your amp. There's no reason a CURE, even an earlier one (the later ones are actually a tad brighter due to the increase headroom), with a Z12 (one of our warmer speakers), should be brighter than a MK I MAZ with Z10s (one of the brightest amps of the bunch). I would suggest sending the Cure out to the Z10 speaker cab and report back on your findings. You can also send the FX loop output to the input of the FX return on your MAZ and see what it sounds like (make sure the CURE has a speaker load still). It might be time to send the amp in. It's not uncommon to find used amps modded in some fashion or in some state of disrepair when we open the amp up to the bench. Don is also great at working with folks to get the amp to sound they want it (within reason) with their particular signal chain.
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Post by "Z" Steve on Feb 3, 2023 13:07:29 GMT -7
THIS^^^^^^^^
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Post by davidp158 on Feb 3, 2023 13:55:49 GMT -7
UPDATE: Don responded to my inquiry and asked for some details on the tubes and a photo of the chassis. The interior of the chassis looks untouched so I'm hoping it may just need a new set of tubes.
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Post by davidp158 on Feb 7, 2023 11:57:15 GMT -7
I made a video that demonstrates the thinner tone of my 1x12 Cure (00:50) compared to my 2x10 MAZ 18 combo tone (02:20).
password = tone
BTW, I got to play another Dr. Z Cure with the stock Z12 speaker at an open mic last night. Although the Cure I played seems brighter than my MAZ 18, it was still not as bright as mine with the Celestion G12P-80 speaker I have installed. The stock Z12 speaker in my Cure was much brighter and lacked bass compared to the G12P-80 speaker.
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Post by frankie on Feb 7, 2023 13:10:27 GMT -7
I made a video that demonstrates the thinner tone of my 1x12 Cure (00:50) compared to my 2x10 MAZ 18 combo tone (02:20). password = tone BTW, I got to play another Dr. Z Cure with the stock Z12 speaker at an open mic last night. Although the Cure I played seems brighter than my MAZ 18, it was still not as bright as mine with the Celestion G12P-80 speaker I have installed. The stock Z12 speaker in my Cure was much brighter and lacked bass compared to the G12P-80 speaker. I'm assuming you already sent this to Don, but there's a low tone that sounds like a badly microphonic tube that you are referring to as "cone cry." There top end clipping that spikes shortly after that sounds like bad asymmetrical clipping, which could be a symptom of a failing, nearly dead power tube. A nearly dead power tube will only allow one half of the waveform to be produced, which will result in an extremely thin tone with low headroom and ragged, unpleasant clipping. Without knowing how old the power tubes are, or assuming they are the same power tubes that were in it when you got it, I could see one having failed, and the other being severely weakened because of it, if it has indeed been run this long. On top of that, it's possible that the weak/failed tube could have taken a component with it. This isn't often the case without a fuse failure, but it's possible. With 6 years on them, a cathode biased 6V6 would certainly be at the end of it's lifespan if it was played regularly.
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Post by scottyc13 on Feb 7, 2023 13:15:27 GMT -7
It’s definitely much brighter than the MAZ and I bet more so in the room.
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on Feb 7, 2023 15:05:06 GMT -7
not trying to sound like a putz, but why not just change out the power tubes for a fresh, matched set? In 10 minutes you'll know if that's the issues. If the tubes are suspect at all, or old (or of unknown pedigree) I'd just replace them all with Doc's recommendations.
With tube amps, that is almost always the first thing to do (unless you just put in a known good set from a reputable supplier), and very frequently is the issue (as opposed to more complex, serious, or esoteric issues unless the amp has been modified, mistreated, or you don't know the pedigree). If the old ones (especially the preamp tubes) are still ok, then that's great and you have yourself some spares.
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Post by davidp158 on Feb 7, 2023 15:10:56 GMT -7
not trying to sound like a putz, but why not just change out the power tubes for a fresh, matched set? In 10 minutes you'll know if that's the issues. If the tubes are suspect at all, or old (or of unknown pedigree) I'd just replace them all with Doc's recommendations. With tube amps, that is almost always the first thing to do (unless you just put in a known good set from a reputable supplier), and very frequently is the issue (as opposed to more complex, serious, or esoteric issues unless the amp has been modified, mistreated, or you don't know the pedigree). If the old ones (especially the preamp tubes) are still ok, then that's great and you have yourself some spares. No putz-ness at all, and thanks for your response. I intend to swap some tubes this week as soon as I can meet with someone who has them. I don't mind paying for a pair of matched 5881 power tubes, but don't want to waste the money if that's not the solution. I was just trying to determine if this this tone was normal, or if there may be something wrong with the amp.
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Post by nick0 on Feb 7, 2023 20:30:31 GMT -7
not trying to sound like a putz, but why not just change out the power tubes for a fresh, matched set? In 10 minutes you'll know if that's the issues. If the tubes are suspect at all, or old (or of unknown pedigree) I'd just replace them all with Doc's recommendations. With tube amps, that is almost always the first thing to do (unless you just put in a known good set from a reputable supplier), and very frequently is the issue (as opposed to more complex, serious, or esoteric issues unless the amp has been modified, mistreated, or you don't know the pedigree). If the old ones (especially the preamp tubes) are still ok, then that's great and you have yourself some spares. No putz-ness at all, and thanks for your response. I intend to swap some tubes this week as soon as I can meet with someone who has them. I don't mind paying for a pair of matched 5881 power tubes, but don't want to waste the money if that's not the solution. I was just trying to determine if this this tone was normal, or if there may be something wrong with the amp. A 2017 Cure should be 6v6 power tubes i believe.
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Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Feb 8, 2023 2:55:20 GMT -7
99% of the time it’s tubes. They are the most fragile things in human existence, maybe behind incandescent lightbulbs. Plan on buying many, many sets of tubes during your playing days. Buy tubes, and buy often.
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Post by scottyc13 on Feb 8, 2023 5:48:26 GMT -7
99% of the time it’s tubes. They are the most fragile things in human existence, maybe behind incandescent lightbulbs. Plan on buying many, many sets of tubes during your playing days. Buy tubes, and buy often. I would put egos above tubes for fragility, but only slightly. Agree that tubes are a good place to start.
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Post by nicholas on Feb 8, 2023 7:56:47 GMT -7
99% of the time it’s tubes. They are the most fragile things in human existence, maybe behind incandescent lightbulbs. Plan on buying many, many sets of tubes during your playing days. Buy tubes, and buy often. I would put egos above tubes for fragility, but only slightly. Agree that tubes are a good place to start. Lol. A guy I used to work with always used to say "it's a fragile ecosystem egosystem here" . I always though it was funny and true. Good luck OP. Nicko might be onto something. I'm not sure when the Cure switched from 6V6 to 5881's. But I'd find out if the 5881's that you have installed are supposed to be there. Worth ruling out anyway.
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Post by nick0 on Feb 8, 2023 10:24:51 GMT -7
The Cure was released in 2017 i think. And that's what year i got mine new. It most definitely did not have the 5881s in it yet. However, i know the factory can convert it from 6v6 to 5881. Maybe thats been done on your amp. If it was, they would have a record of it. Or maybe you have 6v6s in it and are just reading the current revision specs from the web site.
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