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Post by smallsouls on Oct 22, 2021 10:09:39 GMT -7
New to the forum, hello everyone. I've recently gone through an extensive tube experimentation/replacement process for my Z-plus (with the Creamback). I've been following the forum for the past 6 months but haven't seen much discussion about tubes specifically for the Z-plus, so I'm hoping this will be helpful--also hoping to hear what you've been doing!
I've placed asterisks where I've deviated from the Doc's latest recommendations, with explanations below. Here's my rundown:
V1: Tung-Sol 12AX7 V2: JJ ECC83S* V3: EHX 12ATWC** V4: Tung-Sol 12AX7 V5: JJ ECC83S* V6 & V7: JJ 6V6 (matched)*** V8:Sylvania 5AR4 GZ34 NOS****
*Doc recommends JJ ECC83, which has more of a midrange boost than the "S" version. I tried a couple NOS 5751's in both V2 and V5 but didn't like them. Will replace when I reorder--open to suggestions!
**Doc recommends JJ ECC81 (JJ's version of the 12AT7), which was installed but going microphonic, so while I was waiting for the replacement tubes, I used an NOS 5751, which sounded pretty good! I then tried the JAN-Philips 12AT7WC, which I'll keep as a backup, but I settled on EHX's new version of the tube, which cleaned up the amp and reduced noise--everything sounds fuller and more touch-responsive. Probably the most noticeable improvement to the amp.
***Doc recommends the non "S" version (matched), but I already had these in another amp in good working condition. Open to suggestions here as well!
****Doc recommends Shu Guang 5AR4, which I suspect sounds great. The JJ 5AR4 that came with the amp was going microphonic. The Sylvania was a retail-therapy purchase, I mean it was absurd: $120 or something. I'm not gonna lie, it made a noticeable difference. But not as much as that $22 EHX 12AT7! Lesson learned.
I appreciate any corrections or suggestions. It's a friendly group and I've learned a lot from you already! Cheers.
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Post by purpletele on Oct 23, 2021 15:05:34 GMT -7
Cool info, I’m ordering some tubes for another amp. I’m going to try the EHX in V3.
Good info
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Post by nmz on Oct 23, 2021 15:58:28 GMT -7
Welcome
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Post by zpilot on Oct 23, 2021 20:12:00 GMT -7
The Sylvania 5AR4 should be an improvement in reliability more than sound. I believe V5 is the output tube driver. For amps that use a 12AX7/ECC83 for that function I have had good luck for many years with a Sovtek 12AX7LPS. General rule of thumb for me is that I replace that every other time I replace the output tubes. For V2 you might try a Preferred Series 12AX7 from The Tube Store.
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Post by jhen86 (jordan) on Oct 26, 2021 6:45:42 GMT -7
Welcome to the forum. Just for clarity sake, I don’t think JJ makes a non “S” version of the 6V6?!? Unless I’m just mistaken. So you are using Doc’s suggested tubes in the 6V6 slot. You may be overthinking it a tad. Which is what us guitar players do best
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Post by smallsouls on Oct 26, 2021 20:05:06 GMT -7
The Sylvania 5AR4 should be an improvement in reliability more than sound. I believe V5 is the output tube driver. For amps that use a 12AX7/ECC83 for that function I have had good luck for many years with a Sovtek 12AX7LPS. General rule of thumb for me is that I replace that every other time I replace the output tubes. For V2 you might try a Preferred Series 12AX7 from The Tube Store. Thanks for the suggestions! I’ll definitely check those out. Also, been trying to hunt down the mapping for each tube on this amp (and trying to understand that relationship . . . interesting to me, anyway), but there’s not much out there.
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Post by perryr on Oct 26, 2021 22:28:49 GMT -7
V1 is the input tube, first gain stage using both halves of the 12ax7 in parallel. V2 is a cathode follower tone stack driver. V3 is the reverb driver, it drives the tank. V4 is the reverb recovery and mix. V5 is the output tubes driver (using 1/2 of tube as its single ended output). Power tubes Rectifier (power supply )
I have never messed with V3 much in my Z’s, if its good and not microphonic I leave it alone. Ive always thought of v3 as impacting tone of the Reverb and not necessarily the base tone of the amp. For that reason ive not spent time to see what the difference in the amps “base” tone is between various 12AT7’s. If the reverb sounds good and it aint ringing then I leave it be.
Curious if when you were auditioning v3’s if you tried with the reverb off and could hear noticeable difference between 12AT7’s on the ‘reverb off’ base tone?
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Post by zpilot on Oct 27, 2021 0:34:19 GMT -7
A 12AT7/ECC81/6201 will last a lot longer as a reverb driver than a 12AX7 or 5751. I'd stick with that.
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Post by helmi on Oct 27, 2021 13:48:22 GMT -7
Welcome to the forum.
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Post by smallsouls on Nov 12, 2021 10:35:08 GMT -7
V1 is the input tube, first gain stage using both halves of the 12ax7 in parallel. V2 is a cathode follower tone stack driver. V3 is the reverb driver, it drives the tank. V4 is the reverb recovery and mix. V5 is the output tubes driver (using 1/2 of tube as its single ended output). Power tubes Rectifier (power supply ) I have never messed with V3 much in my Z’s, if its good and not microphonic I leave it alone. Ive always thought of v3 as impacting tone of the Reverb and not necessarily the base tone of the amp. For that reason ive not spent time to see what the difference in the amps “base” tone is between various 12AT7’s. If the reverb sounds good and it aint ringing then I leave it be. Curious if when you were auditioning v3’s if you tried with the reverb off and could hear noticeable difference between 12AT7’s on the ‘reverb off’ base tone? Sorry for my late response, looks like I didn't set up notifications. Too much time with tubes! Anyway, I really appreciate your post. To answer your question, honestly I don't remember, about ducking the Reverb but I'm going to try that next time I need to replace V3.
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Post by smallsouls on Nov 12, 2021 10:35:24 GMT -7
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Nov 12, 2021 11:38:34 GMT -7
Couple things here:
(1) I don't believe the "-s" designations for specific JJ tubes are an issue--I've never seen a JJ ECC83 and an ECC83S tube, only ever the ECC83S. Same with their 6V6S, never seen it without the S. So, I have a feeling that when Doc recommends the JJ ECC83 and 6V6, he's simply referring to the only ones JJ sells (the ECC83S and the 6V6S).
(2) It's pretty much common gear-head knowledge/assumption that the JJ 6V6S tube doesn't sound true to the classic 6V6 sound, and that it can sound more like a 6L6. However, Doc has used that tube in a few of his designs, and in some cases (specifically for the Z-Lux, if I remember correctly) has said that the JJ 6V6S is the only tube that should be used because other modern "6V6 type" tubes are not robust enough to handle the amp's voltage/current requirements.
So, on one hand, you might be tempted to try different 6V6-type tubes in your Z-Plus; however I wouldn't recommend straying from the JJ 6V6S specifically unless Doc gives you the green light.
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Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Nov 12, 2021 17:31:18 GMT -7
smallsouls, I've always been up to my elbows in my gear, and doing the tube swapping/speaker swapping game is something that I'm real fond of. But with Z's amps I have learned that he 99% of the time is exactly right about which tube and speaker works best with his designs. You see, Doc gets into the weeds too and he really loves tone. I've also learned that he has a GREAT pair of ears. The man knows tone and after all the swapping I do, I almost always wind up right back to the way the amp was shipped to me.
All that said, enjoy the tone quest! It is after all your ears that need pleasing, right? Have fun!
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Post by dcarver on Nov 13, 2021 10:38:42 GMT -7
Hi smallsouls. Welcome to the forum. If I were to make a suggestion, it would be to try the NOS 5751 in V1. I have one in my Maz 8. It doesn't break up as early as a 12AX7, so a little more headroom. When you push it into clipping, the overdriven tone is a bit smoother than the 12AX7. That's been my experience. Over all, after a lot of tube rolling with my Maz 8, I've come to the conclusion that you can shape the tone a bit, or tweak it a little. But you can't really change the the fundimental character of the amp. Good luck.
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Post by JumpMarine on Dec 8, 2022 14:19:15 GMT -7
Bringing this one back up. I just swapped in an NOS Jan/Phillips into V1 and V3 of my ZPlus....wish that I had done that years ago. Wow, thicker low mids, less spikey top end. I really couldn't hear any difference in the reverb. My LP sounds GLORIOUS strait into both the high and low input. Never really had a hankering to change anything, but you know what happens on snowy days at home alone? Found my box of misc tubes and couldn't resist.
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Post by purpletele on Dec 8, 2022 16:55:26 GMT -7
Bringing this one back up. I just swapped in an NOS Jan/Phillips into V1 and V3 of my ZPlus....wish that I had done that years ago. Wow, thicker low mids, less spikey top end. I really couldn't hear any difference in the reverb. My LP sounds GLORIOUS strait into both the high and low input. Never really had a hankering to change anything, but you know what happens on snowy days at home alone? Found my box of misc tubes and couldn't resist. That might be fun to try. Were those 12Ax7's or something else? BV
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Post by JumpMarine on Dec 9, 2022 10:58:01 GMT -7
V1-12ax7 V3-12AT7
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Post by purpletele on Dec 9, 2022 11:18:56 GMT -7
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