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Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Oct 15, 2021 14:49:47 GMT -7
Hi all, I’m wiring up a Strat pick guard and wondering if there is any downside to twisting the leads from the pickups and to the output jack nice and tight (but not too tight as to damage the connection to the pickups). Considering mostly for aesthetic reasons but wondering if doing so could possibly either introduce or reduce noise. Thanks in advance!
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Post by headshrinker (Marc) on Oct 15, 2021 15:12:16 GMT -7
I know guys who do that as a way of adding a bit of shielding to single coils, sort of like in a two conductor pickup with a braided shield. They say it adds some, who knows? I've done it and not done it, usually don't. Frankly, never noticed any difference. I don't think it could introduce noise and have never gotten any. I'm not an EE though, just a guy who can wire up a guitar.
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Post by GuitarZ on Oct 15, 2021 15:52:16 GMT -7
Ditto on HeadShrinker's response. You're good to go. I am a BSEE plus an MSEE. But, I'd leave it to your ears to decide the final outcome. I did extensive shielding in my P90 Les Paul including shielded wires. End result was the same hum prior to the shielding. And, thank you for thinking an EE might have a great answer. I was in management so long that no one cared about my EE credentials. Thank you for caring.
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Post by adam on Oct 15, 2021 17:16:26 GMT -7
I am a BSEE plus an MSEE. But, I'd leave it to your ears to decide the final outcome. I did extensive shielding in my P90 Les Paul including shielded wires. End result was the same hum prior to the shielding. And, thank you for thinking an EE might have a great answer. We all greatly respect and appreciate the knowledge you guys have and are thankful for that. Next time you change strings on the guitar, rip out all that shielding and tell me the guitar doesn't sound at least 25% better. No joke.
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Post by GuitarZ on Oct 16, 2021 9:52:29 GMT -7
Next time you change strings on the guitar, rip out all that shielding and tell me the guitar doesn't sound at least 25% better. No joke. I should clarify. I only shielded my Les Paul's potentiometer cavity and pickup switch cavity. I remember reading that if you do shield the pickup cavities, you can affect the tone. So, I figured let me just clean up the wiring and shield the non-pickup cavities to see what might happen. I didn't want to affect the tone (and maybe I was being lazy in not wanting to pull the pickups out and such). So, for me, no tone change *or hum reduction). The ILITCH system is tempting based on the positive reviews here on Z-Talk. I'm checking with my guitar player friend. He went the whole nine yards on his Tele. He was not only picking up hum, but noise from a newly installed router. He even had to slightly enlarge his pickup cavities to accommodate the shielding. Seemed like a lot of work. I actually wanted to head over to his house thinking that if the router was the issue, he should be able to move it, or we should be able to locate the source of the noise. But, he was too far down the path with the guitar. I'm curious on how the tone might have changed.
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Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Oct 16, 2021 16:13:05 GMT -7
I'm a BSEE as well, and I'll ditto everything said above. I did the shielding with copper tape on a Strat, and on a Les Paul as well, and didn't notice that much if any difference. But my house is an electric noise house of horror. The power lines out in front radiate noise like crazy and nothing I've tried (Short of building a faraday cage to isolate my music room) has helped. I even had a complete rebuild of my house about 17 years ago, with a new 200 amp panel and all new wiring. No help with the noise. I think it varies from installation to installation, but I didn't notice any degradation to my tone. I could see how it could happen though. My Strat has a swimming pool route and I could see a standard route that was totally shielded negatively affecting the tone. Again, a case by case situation.
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Post by adam on Oct 16, 2021 21:47:52 GMT -7
My story is I picked up an old Strat for a deal (routed for bridge humbucker, grovers, middle pickup changed, refret). Gave it to a guy to have put back to "normal" and asked if I wanted to shield it so I said ok. Got it back and all the mojo was gone. Had it like that for a year and then saw an Eric Johnson comment about it "it just kills the guitar, you lose all the high end" (something like that). I took out the shielding and the mojo was back. It was a big difference in my case.
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Post by sharkboy on Oct 17, 2021 4:31:25 GMT -7
I’m not an EE, but my career is EE adjacent.
Wire twisting can have some noise cancelling effect, whether in a guitar or an amp. Almost twists the heater wires in an amp to tighten the field for + and - energy: basically, it’s using the opposing phases to cancel each other out as emitted energy tries to radiate.
I have noticed the deadening effect of shielding in a guitar. When we ground the cavity with a faraday cage, the field effect is modified and the higher frequencies are pulled down more noticeably than lower frequencies. I think that some of the guitar sounding “alive” means keeping some of the noise. The thing I used to hate about single coils turned out to be a critical artifact of what I grew to love about them.
I have a Tele with pretty low output pickups. It has a metal pickguard and really low hum, despite the low output pickups (signal to noise.) I have another one that is more modern (better intonation, higher output pickups,) but does hum more. For virtually anything, I would pick the modern one.
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Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Oct 17, 2021 4:44:12 GMT -7
There's interesting forces at play here and I don't claim to understand how it all translates to tone...but I'm sure that it can and does make a difference. Again, every case is individual. Just like every guitar off the production line sounds and plays a little differently. They're complicated and the 'recipe' for great tone is a lifelong quest. Tele bridge pickups are a case in point. The metal plate on the bottom, whether it's copper, zinc, iron, etc. makes a big difference in the magnetic forces at work. We know that copper is a non ferrous (it isn't attracted to magnets) metal but this thing called Lenz's Law is fascinating. Check out the attached video about what happens when you drop a magnet down a copper pipe. Enclosing your pickups with copper shielding has to have some effect. In Adam's case it killed the guitar's mojo. In mine, I couldn't tell the difference. I also couldn't tell a significant change in noise, so next time I've got that guitar apart I'm going to take out the shielding and see if I can tell a difference. I might do that next time I restring it, my curiosity is really piqued about this. Watch this, it is very cool. Incidentally, the forces here are how modern roller coaster brakes work:
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Post by GuitarZ on Oct 17, 2021 9:31:22 GMT -7
That is very cool! My Z-Talk education continues. 😀. The science is neat, but just watching it is, well, very cool.
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Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Oct 17, 2021 12:11:57 GMT -7
Super interesting and helpful comments from all. Great thread!
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Post by Lefty on Oct 18, 2021 13:13:04 GMT -7
I'm no EE however I was told by a amp guy that getting too neat and tidy with wiring can create Eddy currents (no relation). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_currentHowever thinking that the length of wire you're dealing with wouldn't make much difference.
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Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Oct 18, 2021 15:51:17 GMT -7
Well, I wired it up all neat and pretty and installed it in an old poocaster I built. It wasn’t any noisier than my other Strat, so I decided to shield the cavity as well with copper tape /conductive adhesive. I cannot tell a difference in tone or noise reduction. I bet the shielding would help if I lived next door to an AM radio station, but I don’t.
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Post by zpilot on Oct 19, 2021 3:24:27 GMT -7
The voltages are so low in a guitar that I just can't see where induction or eddy currents can be a problem. I do believe that shielding affects tone. My Jazzmaster originally had a plastic pickguard. When I changed to an anodized aluminum one I definitely heard a difference in tone. I actually like the aluminum one better. I'm not an EE, but I've been messing with guitar wiring for 53 years. Who's to say what is better anyway.
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Post by GuitarZ on Oct 19, 2021 11:24:14 GMT -7
I'm not an EE, but I've been messing with guitar wiring for 53 years. Who's to say what is better anyway. I find I can look at something from a very technical perspective. I’m starting to learn to ‘listen and trust my ears’. So, you get to say what’s best for you. 😎
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