|
Post by daicapp on Mar 6, 2016 12:08:46 GMT -7
I'm used to Cornell amps where their attenuation is rated in wattage reductions (I guess they did the translation). SO in terms of Dr Z's roughly what does 11db (the max on a brake lite) mean in terms of wattage on a 35 watt Therapy...
Tough question for a Sunday night, sorry...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2016 13:28:00 GMT -7
Brings output down to about 4 watts...
|
|
|
Post by headshrinker (Marc) on Mar 6, 2016 13:38:11 GMT -7
Frank (Irreversal)above has it. Roughly speaking, cutting the amp 3db is the equivalent of halving the power. The inverse is, doubling the power of an amp, gets you roughly 3db of volume. While we are at it, adding another speaker of the same type, gets you roughly 3db of volume also.
|
|
|
Post by daicapp on Mar 6, 2016 13:41:58 GMT -7
Brilliant - thanks. I worked it out to 3 watts but my skills are so rudimentary I thought I'd be miles out
|
|
|
Post by benttop (Steve) on Mar 7, 2016 10:06:19 GMT -7
Frank (Irreversal)above has it. Roughly speaking, cutting the amp 3db is the equivalent of halving the power. The inverse is, doubling the power of an amp, gets you roughly 3db of volume. While we are at it, adding another speaker of the same type, gets you roughly 3db of volume also. Well... adding a speaker does not give you more db strictly from the power perspective, because when you add a speaker, the power going to the first speaker is cut in half. So, if you have 100db coming out of your first speaker, and you add an identical speaker, the first drops to 97db and the second is also putting out 97db. Depending on the cab, how those add together may produce more than the original 100db, but you can't really count on a 3db boost. I have noticed that it also depends a great deal on your perception (if the cab is stacked vertical, for example, you'll hear the upper speaker way better, producing a perception of increased volume). Two is louder than one. But the db relationship is not so clear and depends on a bazillion variables. I recall Ted Weber (RIP) saying here on this forum that he thinks it's about 2db. YMMV.
|
|
|
Post by Stephen on Mar 10, 2016 10:01:02 GMT -7
Great stuff. Thank you so much for this thread.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2016 15:11:15 GMT -7
Frank (Irreversal)above has it. Roughly speaking, cutting the amp 3db is the equivalent of halving the power. The inverse is, doubling the power of an amp, gets you roughly 3db of volume. While we are at it, adding another speaker of the same type, gets you roughly 3db of volume also. Well... adding a speaker does not give you more db strictly from the power perspective, because when you add a speaker, the power going to the first speaker is cut in half. So, if you have 100db coming out of your first speaker, and you add an identical speaker, the first drops to 97db and the second is also putting out 97db. Depending on the cab, how those add together may produce more than the original 100db, but you can't really count on a 3db boost. I have noticed that it also depends a great deal on your perception (if the cab is stacked vertical, for example, you'll hear the upper speaker way better, producing a perception of increased volume). Two is louder than one. But the db relationship is not so clear and depends on a bazillion variables. I recall Ted Weber (RIP) saying here on this forum that he thinks it's about 2db. YMMV. I've read this post probably 100 times. I'm on the fence about adding a 2x10 or another 1x12 to my rig. Does a Z 2x10 still put out 97db then??? Or would it be about 100db since one Z10 is a 97 db speaker???
|
|
|
Post by doctorice on Apr 18, 2016 15:20:01 GMT -7
I'm used to Cornell amps where their attenuation is rated in wattage reductions (I guess they did the translation). SO in terms of Dr Z's roughly what does 11db (the max on a brake lite) mean in terms of wattage on a 35 watt Therapy... Tough question for a Sunday night, sorry... The amp's master volume is pretty much a continuously variable attenuator by design. Do you perceive a difference in tone at the same output level between using the master or an attenuator? Just curious, not being critical, as I've never tried a Brake Lite on that amp.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2016 15:36:34 GMT -7
I'm used to Cornell amps where their attenuation is rated in wattage reductions (I guess they did the translation). SO in terms of Dr Z's roughly what does 11db (the max on a brake lite) mean in terms of wattage on a 35 watt Therapy... Tough question for a Sunday night, sorry... The amp's master volume is pretty much a continuously variable attenuator by design. Do you perceive a difference in tone at the same output level between using the master or an attenuator? Just curious, not being critical, as I've never tried a Brake Lite on that amp. I was doing some recording this weekend, so I was in an environment where I could open up the Therapy and also do some experimenting. At home, I don't like running the Therapy's volume higher than the master, I'd rather run the volume low, master high and kick on an overdrive. I also don't attenuate the Therapy at home. I got to crank the Therapy through the Z12, MV at 3pm and Volume dimed, and let me tell you, it was quite glorious. The old "Clean to Mean" demo with the guy playing the Lester at the end is spot on. I then broke out the Brake Lite and went straight to four clicks to see how far I could bring the volume down. It was still loud (4 watts is still plenty loud), but not to the point where I think I'd run into an issue playing at home with my neighbors around. I don't have a wife or kids to tick off either. In summary, I was very pleased with the Brake Lite and the Therapy. Four clicks seem to add some compression, make it a little squishier and take away some highs, but I kind of liked that. For home jamming, I would prefer this than running the master low and volume high, or even doing the pedal dance. I almost now want to go back and revisit trying the Brake Lite with the MV Monza. As good as the MV's are in these amps, they really do go to another level when you can run the Master past halfway.
|
|
|
Post by Maddog on Apr 18, 2016 17:03:23 GMT -7
..... I don't like running the Therapy's volume lower than the master, I'd rather run the volume low, master high.... Frank, is that what you meant to say, or am I missing something?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2016 17:44:58 GMT -7
..... I don't like running the Therapy's volume lower than the master, I'd rather run the volume low, master high.... Frank, is that what you meant to say, or am I missing something? Good catch, Lee. I edited my comment above. Long day in the office, and it's 90 degrees in downtown San Diego. Suffering from a bit of heat exhaustion, I suppose.
|
|
|
Post by Maddog on Apr 18, 2016 18:56:01 GMT -7
Frank, is that what you meant to say, or am I missing something? Good catch, Lee. I edited my comment above. Long day in the office, and it's 90 degrees in downtown San Diego. Suffering from a bit of heat exhaustion, I suppose. Man, I know THAT feeling for sure! I do it a lot. Re-read it. Gotcha! Thanks for the clarification! That's the way I ran mine too.... Awesome amp, Brother!!!!
|
|
|
Post by purpletele on Apr 18, 2016 19:01:38 GMT -7
Frank, is that what you meant to say, or am I missing something? Good catch, Lee. I edited my comment above. Long day in the office, and it's 90 degrees in downtown San Diego. Suffering from a bit of heat exhaustion, I suppose. It was 90 degrees in Sacramento today. Perfect temp
|
|
|
Post by muZician on Apr 18, 2016 22:17:14 GMT -7
10dB reduction in Power means that the power is divided by ten. 35W gets 3.5W. 11dB is a bit more reduction: the power is divided by about 12.6. 35W gets 2.8W
|
|
|
Post by doctorice on Apr 19, 2016 4:33:11 GMT -7
I've posted this link before, but it is relevant for this thread.
Calculator
|
|
|
Post by benttop (Steve) on Apr 19, 2016 5:18:40 GMT -7
Well... adding a speaker does not give you more db strictly from the power perspective, because when you add a speaker, the power going to the first speaker is cut in half. So, if you have 100db coming out of your first speaker, and you add an identical speaker, the first drops to 97db and the second is also putting out 97db. Depending on the cab, how those add together may produce more than the original 100db, but you can't really count on a 3db boost. I have noticed that it also depends a great deal on your perception (if the cab is stacked vertical, for example, you'll hear the upper speaker way better, producing a perception of increased volume). Two is louder than one. But the db relationship is not so clear and depends on a bazillion variables. I recall Ted Weber (RIP) saying here on this forum that he thinks it's about 2db. YMMV. I've read this post probably 100 times. I'm on the fence about adding a 2x10 or another 1x12 to my rig. Does a Z 2x10 still put out 97db then??? Or would it be about 100db since one Z10 is a 97 db speaker??? Frank, I wish I could say. I bet the 2x10 is louder than the 1x12, but I've never tried it so it is simply speculation on my part. Just way too many variables to do any arithmetic, so I suggest you just try both to see what your own impression is.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2016 7:25:48 GMT -7
I've read this post probably 100 times. I'm on the fence about adding a 2x10 or another 1x12 to my rig. Does a Z 2x10 still put out 97db then??? Or would it be about 100db since one Z10 is a 97 db speaker??? Frank, I wish I could say. I bet the 2x10 is louder than the 1x12, but I've never tried it so it is simply speculation on my part. Just way too many variables to do any arithmetic, so I suggest you just try both to see what your own impression is. I had a Maz 38 2x10 for a couple years and it was loud. One of the reasons I scaled down to the Maz 18.
|
|
|
Post by wraparound (Steve) on Apr 19, 2016 9:24:47 GMT -7
You said a mouthful when you commented: "As good as the MV's are in these amps, they really do go to another level when you can run the Master past halfway." I don't have a master on my Galaxie, but I did with my old Hiwatt 50, and my remembrance was the master kept inching up especially after the first 15 minutes of playing when the amp was warmed up good! I think I would like to try a Z-brake though.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2016 16:57:53 GMT -7
You said a mouthful when you commented: "As good as the MV's are in these amps, they really do go to another level when you can run the Master past halfway." I don't have a master on my Galaxie, but I did with my old Hiwatt 50, and my remembrance was the master kept inching up especially after the first 15 minutes of playing when the amp was warmed up good! I think I would like to try a Z-brake though. It needed to be said. I'm pro attenuation, especially in amps without these elaborate preamp gain stages. Does anyone know what the output stage of a Dual Rec or Friedman BE sound like??? Nope, because each power amp has 15 12ax7's in front of it. If you have a Therapy, or a Remedy, etc. and you have to run the master below 9pm to not wake the dead, you're really doing yourself a dis-service by not at least trying an attenuator.
|
|
|
Post by daicapp on Apr 20, 2016 12:41:26 GMT -7
I'm used to Cornell amps where their attenuation is rated in wattage reductions (I guess they did the translation). SO in terms of Dr Z's roughly what does 11db (the max on a brake lite) mean in terms of wattage on a 35 watt Therapy... Tough question for a Sunday night, sorry... The amp's master volume is pretty much a continuously variable attenuator by design. Do you perceive a difference in tone at the same output level between using the master or an attenuator? Just curious, not being critical, as I've never tried a Brake Lite on that amp. sorry for the delay in replying - it definitely affects the tone, does compress it more but when it's in the mix it's less noticeable. What it does help with it bringing the wattage down to a level when I can driver the amp harder and get the back end going on the amp in situations where I couldn't drive it that hard normally like a studio or practice...
|
|
|
Post by zpilot on Apr 21, 2016 3:20:34 GMT -7
Frank (Irreversal)above has it. Roughly speaking, cutting the amp 3db is the equivalent of halving the power. The inverse is, doubling the power of an amp, gets you roughly 3db of volume. While we are at it, adding another speaker of the same type, gets you roughly 3db of volume also. Well... adding a speaker does not give you more db strictly from the power perspective, because when you add a speaker, the power going to the first speaker is cut in half. So, if you have 100db coming out of your first speaker, and you add an identical speaker, the first drops to 97db and the second is also putting out 97db. Depending on the cab, how those add together may produce more than the original 100db, but you can't really count on a 3db boost. I have noticed that it also depends a great deal on your perception (if the cab is stacked vertical, for example, you'll hear the upper speaker way better, producing a perception of increased volume). Two is louder than one. But the db relationship is not so clear and depends on a bazillion variables. I recall Ted Weber (RIP) saying here on this forum that he thinks it's about 2db. YMMV. This all gets very complicated. Changing the number of drivers will change the frequency response and your ear hears the full spectrum. Whereas most methods of acoustic measurement are only sampling one frequency. That is usually around 1000hz.
|
|
|
Post by benttop (Steve) on Apr 21, 2016 17:54:45 GMT -7
Well... adding a speaker does not give you more db strictly from the power perspective, because when you add a speaker, the power going to the first speaker is cut in half. So, if you have 100db coming out of your first speaker, and you add an identical speaker, the first drops to 97db and the second is also putting out 97db. Depending on the cab, how those add together may produce more than the original 100db, but you can't really count on a 3db boost. I have noticed that it also depends a great deal on your perception (if the cab is stacked vertical, for example, you'll hear the upper speaker way better, producing a perception of increased volume). Two is louder than one. But the db relationship is not so clear and depends on a bazillion variables. I recall Ted Weber (RIP) saying here on this forum that he thinks it's about 2db. YMMV. This all gets very complicated. Changing the number of drivers will change the frequency response and your ear hears the full spectrum. Whereas most methods of acoustic measurement are only sampling one frequency. That is usually around 1000hz. Yeah, I'm pretty sure there are guys who could figure it out, and describe it; and I'm pretty sure there are folks who could understand his description, and I'm also pretty sure most of them are not guitar players.
|
|
drk
New Member
Posts: 31
|
Post by drk on Oct 11, 2016 9:20:33 GMT -7
Does it really matter how the watts are affected by attenuation?
Isn't a more germane concern how loud the amp sounds?
If so, a 10 db decrease cuts the perceived volume by half.
|
|