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Post by garysgearreviews on Feb 2, 2015 21:58:41 GMT -7
So I have this older Carmen Ghia 1x12 combo with a WGS Reaper speaker (some of you know, sorry for all the posts about it! But it's my first Z so I'm learning). The combo cab is a weird size, it's pretty big but not quite as big as a regular Z 1x12 combo cab, but not quite as small as his studio 1x12 combos either. I don't think he made the studios when this one was made (late 90s I think). I've listed it for sale/trade as it's too loud on stage (everywhere really, lol), I've really been struggling with it. It sounds AMAZING but on stage I can only run the volume around 9 o'clock, even then it's loud but that's the lowest possible volume I can get out of it with all the tone still being there, if I turn down any lower it (the tone, mostly top end) drops out. When I was auditioning the amp seeing if I wanted to buy it I was on stage alone and un-mic'd. The guy I bought it from showed me his favorite setting (Volume- Noon, Tone- around 1 o'clock) and it sounded amazing. Maybe the best edge-of-breakup, semi-crunch tone I've ever heard, and it cleaned up beautifully with the guitar's volume knob. I'm rambling, basically it's too loud so I've listed it for sale or trade (even though I love the tone). I don't want to drop $200-$300 on an attenuator, just not interested in that option at the moment. But I've been thinking about trying to put a 10" speaker in it. Would this reduce the volume noticeably? The amp came with a hand made Z-style head cabinet the guy I bought it from made so I'm trying to sell it to get some extra cash or trade it for a speaker. I suppose I could also just sell the WGS Reaper that's in it. I love the sound of this amp cranked, it's really great. But I just can't crank it at the moment. It sounds good where I'm running it too (Vol- 9 o'clock, Tone- 1 o'clock). It's suuuuper percussive sounding and that's great for the country-tele stuff I do. But still... LOUD!!! I just feel like I'm kiling the amp's soul by not cranking it to it's sweet spot regularly. I sold a hand wired Deluxe Reverb with a Tone Tubby 40/40 in it before I got the Ghia. Even though the DR is rated at 22 watts and had a super loud speaker in it, this Ghia feels like easily twice as loud. I've talked to some guys about trading for a M-12, I'd looooove to try the Maz 8 but idk if I can afford it. Normally I'd never think I could play out anywhere with an 8 or 12 watt amp but hearing how loud the Doc's 18 watts is, I have a feeling I could take the Maz 8 or M12 to any gig around town. But let me know if you think switching from a 12" to a 10" would help the volume. Here's a pic:   Thanks, Gary |
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Post by Maddog on Feb 3, 2015 4:51:30 GMT -7
Gary, the 10" probably would not lower the perceived volume very much (might even be louder with certain speakers).... and, you might lose some fullness of the tone. Most people like the single 10" set-up because it's lighter, and you can fit it into a smaller "grab 'n go" combo more easily.
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Post by John on Feb 3, 2015 6:27:07 GMT -7
I have several comments:
1) The Reaper is a clone of the G12H30. Which is a loud 100db speaker. (I'm not sure how loud the reaper is, but I'll bet it's not too far off. I had a Reaper years ago, it seemed just as loud as the H.) That's part of your problem right there. I would urge you to look into a 12" speaker that has a lower db rating. What comes to mind is the greenback @ 98db. 2db is a decent drop in volume (for the same amp power) Or even the Heritage greenback...which is the more expensive still-English-made vintage version of the greenback...and it's 96db. That's a FOUR db drop. That's a very large drop. I'll bet that would take care of all your volume needs right there. If you decide to go the "Heritage" greenback route, and can't find a used one....you should consider the Celestion EVH. It's a little known secret that the EVH is the SAME as the Heritage greenback, but it has that VanHalen colored plastic magnet cover. But the EVH is much cheaper. You can find used greenbacks on Ebay all day long. Or you could consider the WGS version, the Green Beret. I have a Green Beret, and it's great. You can probably get a new Green Beret for the price of a used greenback.
2) The Reaper/G12H is a 'scooped' speaker. Meaning there's lots of bass and treble, but little mids. And for guitar, mids are where it's at. (one of the reasons people have loved the celestion blue for decades is it's lush mids) When playing alone, the reaper/G12H can sound fine, but when playing with a band, things get lost in the mix because there's no mids. A person ends up turning up the amp volume because they can't hear, but it ends up that the bass and treble (especially treble) is just too loud. And I could REALLY see that happening with a Ghia, because with just a tone control, it's hard to dial out treble and bass. You might want to consider a speaker with more mids. (Like a greenback) The G12H is my least favorite speaker when playing with a band...because in general, the recessed mids make the amp difficult to hear.
3) You're considering spending the money on a new speaker, but can't afford to spend the money on an attenuator? The difference in price isn't all that much. If you REALLY like the sound of the G12H...a used brakelite is the way to go. If you can find one used, they go for around $130.
4) At 9:00 the amp is overpowering the band? This would seem like it's a real low volume band.
Summary: I would try a used greenback or new Green Beret (12") before you try to fit a 10" speaker in there. And generally be on the lookout for a used brakelite.
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Post by limenine on Feb 3, 2015 7:50:16 GMT -7
^^^^this! Listen to John - he knows of what he speaks. The rule of thumb is that a 3 db change in speaker efficiency is the equivilant of halving or doubling the amps power, volume-wise.
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Post by meanslide on Feb 3, 2015 8:22:21 GMT -7
Having run the gamut of speaker swaps myself, with an older Ghia, John is right on the money. I've A/B'd many louder speakers (100db +) against the Greenback (regular production model) and the difference is very noticeable.
That may do the trick for you.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 9:03:44 GMT -7
Yup - I used to have a TT Alnico (100 dB)in the 1x12 that I run my Ghia through. I now have a Celestion Creamback (97dB) in there now. Its a noticeable difference. Between that and my attenuator, playing at home is not an issue. Even with my wife watching TV one floor up, and my son asleep two floors up.
If I had to compare the Brake Lite and Swart Night Light in terms of -db attenuation they offer, It would go something like this (I'm guessing on the NL):
BL NL
Step 1 -2 -5
Step 2 -5 -12
Step 3 -8 -16
Step 4 -11 -30
If I were playing in a band, I'd have another Brake Lite in a heartbeat. Alas. I'm usually on step 2 or 3 on the NL with the wife/son home. Step 4 is about the level of the unamplified strings on the guitar in the room. A little hokey, but fun when you absolutely, positively cannot be loud.
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Post by headshrinker (Marc) on Feb 3, 2015 10:33:08 GMT -7
Another +1 on what John has to say. I too can say going from a 12 to a 10 won't help much with volume. If you really like the way the amp sounds with the reaper I would save up for an attenuator. The Ghia really does like a greenback type of speaker and it will control volume. You could sell off the reaper and buy a used green beret for what you would get out of it or real close. Then if it is still too loud, save for the attenuator. The places you play must be real strict about volume as 9:00 is pretty low on the knob. Have you tried the simple things like turning the amp toward the wall when you play? Used to do that to cut down on volume when I was playing 100 watt Marshalls. I have also set up my amp tilted up toward me in front of the stage like a floor monitor. That way you will hear it well, but the bounce off of the back wall keeps the club owners happy. I do that at things like weddings. Also a plexi shield in front of the amp helps a bunch. GC has them for pretty cheap and making one is real easy. By the way there is a Weber attenuator on the buy sell now for $100.00. A good price. I'm considering it and don't really need it now but the price is good. Unlike John I type real slow but once the coffee kicks in I can't stop.
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Post by garysgearreviews on Feb 3, 2015 10:46:32 GMT -7
I have several comments: 1) The Reaper is a clone of the G12H30. Which is a loud 100db speaker. (I'm not sure how loud the reaper is, but I'll bet it's not too far off. I had a Reaper years ago, it seemed just as loud as the H.) That's part of your problem right there. I would urge you to look into a 12" speaker that has a lower db rating. What comes to mind is the greenback @ 98db. 2db is a decent drop in volume (for the same amp power) Or even the Heritage greenback...which is the more expensive still-English-made vintage version of the greenback...and it's 96db. That's a FOUR db drop. That's a very large drop. I'll bet that would take care of all your volume needs right there. If you decide to go the "Heritage" greenback route, and can't find a used one....you should consider the Celestion EVH. It's a little known secret that the EVH is the SAME as the Heritage greenback, but it has that VanHalen colored plastic magnet cover. But the EVH is much cheaper. You can find used greenbacks on Ebay all day long. Or you could consider the WGS version, the Green Beret. I have a Green Beret, and it's great. You can probably get a new Green Beret for the price of a used greenback. 2) The Reaper/G12H is a 'scooped' speaker. Meaning there's lots of bass and treble, but little mids. And for guitar, mids are where it's at. (one of the reasons people have loved the celestion blue for decades is it's lush mids) When playing alone, the reaper/G12H can sound fine, but when playing with a band, things get lost in the mix because there's no mids. A person ends up turning up the amp volume because they can't hear, but it ends up that the bass and treble (especially treble) is just too loud. And I could REALLY see that happening with a Ghia, because with just a tone control, it's hard to dial out treble and bass. You might want to consider a speaker with more mids. (Like a greenback) The G12H is my least favorite speaker when playing with a band...because in general, the recessed mids make the amp difficult to hear. 3) You're considering spending the money on a new speaker, but can't afford to spend the money on an attenuator? The difference in price isn't all that much. If you REALLY like the sound of the G12H...a used brakelite is the way to go. If you can find one used, they go for around $130. 4) At 9:00 the amp is overpowering the band? This would seem like it's a real low volume band. Summary: I would try a used greenback or new Green Beret (12") before you try to fit a 10" speaker in there. And generally be on the lookout for a used brakelite. Thanks for all the great info John, I really appreciate it. I play country, a lot of times its classic country (which I highly prefer over the new stuff) and the band is pretty quiet. Just a singer with an acoustic, a bass player playing root notes or walking bass lines, a drummer with a tiny kit playing a shuffle/train beat, and then me. The Ghia at 9 o'clock is plenty loud to hang with this kind of band mic'd or not. It's crazy. If there's a fiddle or a pedal steel then that's a dif story. One thing you mentioned, and one of the things that I think makes the Ghia so alive in a mix, is the mid content of the amp itself. You mentioned the Reaper being a "scooped" speaker. I would assume the guy before me settled on the Reaper (he said he'd tried at least 10 dif speakers in the 10 years he owned it) because it tamed the mids of the amp a bit. Even with the Reaper in there I use an EQD Tone Job Boost/EQ pedal (that has active treble, mids and bass) to cut the mids even more. I didin't realize 2-4 dB made such a big difference, the WGS site has the Reaper rated at 30 watts and 98.79 dB. I will try to look at some different speakers that are lower dB. It's weird that they'd "clone" a 100 watt G12H30 and make it almost 2 dB lower. I'm just repeating what I've read, I'm still learning about speaker efficiency, dB rating, etc. The whole thing about spending money is weird. I bought this amp because it sounded great but mainly because the guy made me a great offer and i couldn't turn it down, especially after playing it. Most people would think getting a good deal would entice you to maybe feel more liberal about putting more money into the amp but to me it's the opposite, Idk why I'm like that. I just feel like I got a great deal and if I put money into the amp, I'm killing the deal or something, lol. I'll get past it I'm sure. I have the head cabinet the dude made for it that I'm going to try and sell/trade for a speaker or something. Maybe I'll consider the Brake Lite again, It's been a while since I've owned one so I'm probably forgetting how much of a difference they make. I just looked up the 12" Green Beret. It's lower wattage (25 vs the Reaper's 30) but the dB rating is 98.05. Am I looking at the right number? The WGS site calls it "Sound Pressure Level (SPL)." |
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Post by headshrinker (Marc) on Feb 3, 2015 10:58:44 GMT -7
You're looking at the correct number. That means that there is really no difference between how loud the reaper and green beret will sound. Since you like the scoop of the reaper and are even dialing out more mids with eq, to tame the volume you are going to have to look somewhere other than speakers. From what you are describing the M12 may be more what you are looking for. It does seem to have less volume than a ghia but that may because it has a more flat frequency curve. The Maz 8 is going to be real close to the ghia in volume, but you do get a master that may help you get to where you want to go. It has a lot of mids too, but you have a mid knob to dial it back.
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Post by meanslide on Feb 3, 2015 14:48:25 GMT -7
Keep the Ghia and get a Mini Z too. All set!
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Post by John on Feb 3, 2015 15:47:15 GMT -7
Beware of db or SPL ratings from different companies. There's a LOT more weight to be given to two different ratings by the same company. (Celestion greenback vs Celestion V30)
But to compare ratings from different companies...you kind of have to take it with a grain of salt. They may not use the same method of measuring.
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Post by garysgearreviews on Feb 3, 2015 18:59:33 GMT -7
You're looking at the correct number. That means that there is really no difference between how loud the reaper and green beret will sound. Since you like the scoop of the reaper and are even dialing out more mids with eq, to tame the volume you are going to have to look somewhere other than speakers. From what you are describing the M12 may be more what you are looking for. It does seem to have less volume than a ghia but that may because it has a more flat frequency curve. The Maz 8 is going to be real close to the ghia in volume, but you do get a master that may help you get to where you want to go. It has a lot of mids too, but you have a mid knob to dial it back. I've had at least 5-6 people here tell me they think the M12 would be just what I'm looking for. There's even a guy that will trade me chassis for chassis (my Ghia for his M12) but obviously I'd have to add money (around $300) and I can't do that right this moment, but I think he's willing to be patient (hopefully at least!). I think the M12 chassis in this 1x12 combo cab I have would be PERFECT. I like the idea of the volume/treble tones stack, always have. One knob tone stacks always give me issues, plus the Ghia's is more like a cut knob anyway. The Maz 8 would be great if I could find one I could afford. There was a used one on Reverb for $1250 and that's the cheapest I've seen one (it's prob gone now). I think either one would suit me, even if the Maz 8 is crazy loud I'd be ok cos it has the master. It's so hard because I love the rawness of the Ghia, it sounds so good doing country chicken pickin/string poppin licks. I wish I could afford to keep it and just buy a Mini Z like someone else mentioned. Because if I get a roots rock/Americana gig anytime soon the Ghia would be perfect. I'd probably move it along and get one of these quieter Zs for now. But if I start getting bigger gigs I'll get another Ghia. It's just suuuuch a beast of an amp!!! |
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Post by kustom250 on Feb 4, 2015 8:11:03 GMT -7
I'd look for an attenuator. You can find them for $100 and under. Pretty much the same cost as swapping a speaker.
That way you can knock the volume off for smaller gigs and still have an amp you can use when you need to be louder.
If you get a Mini or Maz 8 you'll need a second amp down the road. Not that I'd ever argue against having lot's of amps. But an attenuator might be the easiest solution.
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Post by behrens on Feb 4, 2015 8:16:44 GMT -7
I have had a 1x10 Ghia combo for about two years now and I can tell you that the difference isn't much.
Add to that I recently bought a 1x12 cab and it's actually a bit quieter than the 10.
I have a Red Fang for the 10. A Blue Alnico for the 12.
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Post by feelthaflo on Feb 14, 2015 19:49:05 GMT -7
As I was reading this thread, it occurred to me that the 5Y3 rectifier could have been swapped with a GZ34 or similar, and this could have a pretty dramatic effect on headroom and loudness. Gary, have you checked out all the tubes in your Ghia?
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