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Post by nisaacs7 on Feb 25, 2014 9:12:25 GMT -7
Often times I have to keep my Carmen Ghia's volume from 6-8 o' clock. I would like to run the amp around 9 but it's too much for my church setting. Would it be worth it to invest into a brake lite so I can get the tubes cooking a bit more?
I've heard that attenuators suck tone when used, but I was thinking that it would act similar to a master volume since the carmen ghia doesn't have one.
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Post by John on Feb 25, 2014 10:00:38 GMT -7
ABSOLUTELY!!!
The Brake Lite (and Airbrake) are great attenuators. I've had three different brands of attenuators and the Dr Z version was by far the best.
Get the kind you install in the back of a combo, and it's there whenever you need it. If you don't, there is a bypass setting. Well worth the money if you're being told to turn down, or if you need/want to turn up for some power tube crunch.
Some attenuators get a bad rap (they suck tone man!) because either the attenuator they're using does in fact suck, or they don't understand the human ear hears things differently at different volumes. Or sometimes they want to take a full blast 100 watt amp and attenuate it down to 3 watts. That's just unrealistic. Most of the time they should be used to shave a little volume off the top.....but not to slice off 95% of the amps power.
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Post by Jaguarguy (Mike) on Feb 25, 2014 10:22:37 GMT -7
They are great "accessories" for a Z amp. I use mine with almost all my Zs (sometimes  ). If you get one, you should click BL to least attenuation required, find your tone and then click it up one. For some reason, going the other way around does not sound the same to your ears. |
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Post by greenblues58 on Feb 25, 2014 10:28:44 GMT -7
^^^^^^
I agree with John.
I have a brakelite a THD hotplate and a Weber mimimass 25 across different amps but the brakelite stays put in the maz though it sounded good with my Marshall 1974x.
The THD comes a close second and more versatile if running another cab as parallel outputs.
I haven't bonded at all with the weber but it was cheap!
Suprisngly the weber sounds better if I mismatch the impedance selector to 16 ohm with an 8 ohm load input sounds flat if set at 8 ohm but lots of control with the dial which has a 6db drop straight off.
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Post by nisaacs7 on Feb 25, 2014 10:29:34 GMT -7
I just really noticed this week when we sound checked. I had this bright, but thick tone and as soon as I turned it down some I lost that thickness from the tubes. I don't think I'll always need it in the future, but it would make sound guys happy and possibly my wife.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 10:47:21 GMT -7
I use mine with my Ghia all the time. Even on 4 clicks(maximum attenuation), it sounds great. That's actually where I typically run mine, with the volume between 11a-1p on the dial. I might also add its still loud enough for my wife to complain (one story up from the basement) at that setting.
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Post by John on Feb 25, 2014 11:34:22 GMT -7
^^^^^^ which has a 6db drop straight off. I forgot about that with the Weber. 6db insertion drop. Not good for gigging. Ok for recording. |
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Feb 25, 2014 14:37:33 GMT -7
The Brake Lite will become your best friend--don't hesitate to get one for your Ghia. It will not harm your tone IF you fire it up the way that the good Dr. intended:
DON'T: Crank your amp up to high volume, and then click in the attenuation, thus reducing the volume. Your ears will be tricked into thinking that the quieter guitar sound isn't as good.
DO: Set the attenuator to one of the higher attenuation settings (#3 or 4) and then turn on the amp and bring it up to where it's giving you some hair & grind; adjust your Tone knob if necessary. Then, if it's still not loud enough, you can then reduce attenuation (down to #2 or 1) and your volume will come UP, where it sounds even better.
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Post by sirgilmour on Feb 25, 2014 20:20:48 GMT -7
I can't get why some people say that BrakeLite is lifeless. It's much better than master volume. It sounds good at 4 click.
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Post by nisaacs7 on Feb 26, 2014 6:52:04 GMT -7
Ok. So if I'm understanding this correctly, if I can only turn my volume up to 7-8 o clock now but use a brake lite to be able crank the volume to 9-11 to match the loudness without the brake lite, I'll get a much better sound? Then tonal changes are only due to how hard the speaker is being hit by the amp?
I play with my amp clean. So I'm not worried about getting breakup. I'm more worried about getting my tubes to run a little warmer so I'm getting the full use of the amps sound.
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Post by doctorice on Feb 26, 2014 7:17:04 GMT -7
I use the BL in my Ghia combo all the time, mainly to match my volume to the room I'm playing in without altering the tone. (Of course, the room itself colors the sound to some extent.)
You'll be able to turn the volume knob up a bit, which likely will provide a fuller, but still clean sound. Do this with the BL set to 3 or 4. If that's sufficient volume, leave it there. If you want more volume, go up to 2 or even 1.
The tonal changes result from some combination of (1) how the amp's circuitry responds as volume is changed; (2) how hard the speaker is pushed -- at the levels you've described, that's not likely a big factor; and (3) the nonlinear nature of human hearing.
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Post by John on Feb 26, 2014 7:22:09 GMT -7
Ok. So if I'm understanding this correctly, if I can only turn my volume up to 7-8 o clock now but use a brake lite to be able crank the volume to 9-11 to match the loudness without the brake lite, I'll get a much better sound? Then tonal changes are only due to how hard the speaker is being hit by the amp? I play with my amp clean. So I'm not worried about getting breakup. I'm more worried about getting my tubes to run a little warmer so I'm getting the full use of the amps sound. Well....hard to say. "I'll get a much better sound?" That's subjective. The Ghia has great tone at all volume levels. And what goes with 'all volume levels' should be 'all levels of breakup' too. As you crank up the volume knob, the Ghia gets louder. And as you continue to turn up the volume, the amp will also start to breakup. Once you reach a certain point, the amp won't really get louder, but continuing to increase the volume knob will increase overdrive/breakup only. (for the most part) The Ghia is a 'cathode biased' amp. It's a complicated term, but it could be put in layman's terms: Cathode biased amps already have the tubes running warm (no matter what level the volume knob is set)...but they may or may not have signal going through them. (sort of like having the gas pedal pushed down on the car, but it's a question of whether you have the car in gear or not. Either way, the engine is running at high rpm.) If you're running the amp with the volume at 7-8 (which is barely running)...and hoping to run it at 9-11...your tone may not change all that much, but your volume will. It's usually after 11:00 that the amp starts to break up. (I know, it depends on what pickups you're using...) My suggestion, is to get the amp in a situation where you can run it at 9-11, and see if you like the tone. Does the church have another room? Can you take it home? Does someone have a basement or garage you could borrow for a few minutes? |
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Post by kinggabbo on Feb 26, 2014 7:42:11 GMT -7
I use the Air Brake all the time with my Ghia. Still get a great sound out of of it. What made a bigger difference with volume levels was really changing to a Greenback speaker, which was lower efficiency than the Dr Z 10 inch speakers I had.
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Feb 26, 2014 8:12:36 GMT -7
I use the Air Brake all the time with my Ghia. Still get a great sound out of of it. What made a bigger difference with volume levels was really changing to a Greenback speaker, which was lower efficiency than the Dr Z 10 inch speakers I had. Also very true. Often, changing to a less-efficient speaker can be as effective at dropping overall volume as a couple clicks on the Brake Lite. If you combine both (less-efficient speaker and a Brake Lite) you'd be surprised at the impact. |
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Post by John on Feb 26, 2014 9:28:47 GMT -7
^^^^^^
Yeah...
What speaker do you have in there?
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Post by nisaacs7 on Feb 26, 2014 10:03:10 GMT -7
A vintage 30. But I love the tone with it.
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Post by John on Feb 26, 2014 11:53:09 GMT -7
A V30 is a 100db speaker....meaning it's pretty LOUD for a given amount of power. There are other speakers out there, with lower db ratings that will allow you to turn the amp up more, because the speaker is 'quieter' than the V30.
The V30 is known for an upper midrange spike in tone. It's not for everyone. It really cuts through the mix.
I'd like you to be able to try a greenback. Lower db rating and still a nice midrange oriented speaker.
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Post by nisaacs7 on Feb 26, 2014 12:13:54 GMT -7
I would rather not buy one just to try it out. What speaker are you using in your carmen ghia?
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Post by kinggabbo on Feb 26, 2014 12:58:02 GMT -7
In that case I think the brake lite would still be a good idea for you. Probably give you just enough decrease of volume for the church. The tone will still be great.
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Post by Brian on Feb 26, 2014 14:16:11 GMT -7
Brake Lite is a great tool. Highly recommend.
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Post by bwc on Feb 26, 2014 20:11:32 GMT -7
You should get a brakelite and install it in back.
I have a brakelite and an airbrake. Love em both. I'm currently playing a ghia with a v30 with the brakelite mounted and a z-28 2x12 with an airbrake. Don't always use them but in a band setting they always work fine. Here's my 2 cents.......
If you want to play live music with a band and keep your volume down but still keep up with the band, they're fantastic tools.
In the bedroom at max attenuation playing without a band, when you're really listening to every nuance, you probably will hear a slight difference.
As for tone suck...... In the context you plan in using it, it will only help you. You're comparing the amp at 6-8 o'clock unattenuated, vs 9 o'clock at two clicks down. Great to use because the amps cooking a little bit but still has a lot of headroom.
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Post by John on Feb 27, 2014 6:00:07 GMT -7
I would rather not buy one just to try it out. What speaker are you using in your carmen ghia? I have the 1x10 combo, and I have a gold in mine. But if you like the tone, I'd get a brake lite rather than try to find a different speaker. If you don't have access to different speakers, or if you don't want to spend the money and effort, the brake lite is the way to go. |
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Post by greenblues58 on Feb 27, 2014 8:24:30 GMT -7
All this talk about brakelites is no good for me.
Just bagged another one on ebay ,will fit it to my Marshall,so the minimass will have to go.
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Post by doctorice on Feb 27, 2014 14:55:12 GMT -7
All this talk about brakelites is no good for me. Just bagged another one on ebay ,will fit it to my Marshall,so the minimass will have to go. I assume you mean it's no good for your savings account  |
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Post by greenblues58 on Feb 27, 2014 15:51:11 GMT -7
^^^^^ Exactly though good for my ears?  |
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Post by bourgeoisboy (Josh) on Feb 27, 2014 19:56:17 GMT -7
I bought my Maz 18 used and it came with one. I would have been hesitent to have bought one, but having used it now I would have bought one in a minute. It's unbelievable how much it helps. At church I use a Rivera Silent Sister iso box which works great for very low stage volumes too. I run the master half way and the volume at 1:00 with no problems.
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Post by nisaacs7 on Mar 1, 2014 6:41:24 GMT -7
Unfortunately the funds I had for the Brake Lite had to be used for something else. So although I will get one, it won't be right now.
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Post by bourgeoisboy (Josh) on Mar 2, 2014 6:04:30 GMT -7
Check your local Craigslist too. I have seen a couple of them pop up for about $100.
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). If you get one, you should click BL to least attenuation required, find your tone and then click it up one. For some reason, going the other way around does not sound the same to your ears.
