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Post by 909one on Feb 26, 2007 10:13:29 GMT -7
I played a show last night with my Maz 38. It is the 1x12 version. I have been having trouble keeping up with the rest of the band in terms of volume. The drummer used to play in hardcore bands so he is used to hitting really hard. Everyone has to turn up to keep up with his volume. I have tried countless times to get everyone turn down but its a loosing battle, in fact its the classic volume war syndrome with our band.. everyone just keeps turning up. My question is will a larger cab increase the apparent volume for me? I was thinking of getting a 4x10. There is another player playing keys and guitar through a late 60's super reverb and she manages to cut through pretty well. Considering that the Maz and the Super reverb are pretty close in wattage, I thought getting a 4x10 would help my situation.. Any thoughts? Will a larger cab really help THAT much?
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Post by kruzty on Feb 26, 2007 10:31:26 GMT -7
Have you tried an amp stand or something to tilt it so the speaker is pointing at you? If it is pointed at your ankles and you are close to it, you probably will have a hard time hearing it. A Maz 38 should have no problem keeping up, though - the rest of the band must be REALLY loud!
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 26, 2007 10:47:56 GMT -7
A lot of variables affect your perception of volume. Your tone is probably the most significant factor, but speaker efficiency, open vs closed back, ported vs non ported - these all affect the equation to some degree.
I've played with drummers that drove a nail in my ear on every snare hit - you have my sympathy. I try not to play with guys like that, but sometimes you can't avoid it. If I were you I'd make sure my amp had plenty of midrange content, and upgrade to a closed-back cab like the Z-Best. But I cannot say if that will get you above that snare...
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Post by 909one on Feb 26, 2007 11:23:16 GMT -7
Yeah, recently I tried tilting the amp back and pointing directly at me. That helped a bit. For me the constant battle is trying cut through but not be too harsh with the tone. One thing that I don't like about the Maz 38 is that it gets really harsh with some guitars when the preamp gain gets cranks. Its that Vox quality I guess. I played a Gretsch with it for while, it was just too much bite. Then I got a Hamer Newport with p-90's. That helped to bring a little more woodiness with the lower mids but still retained the sparkle.
Anyway... Getting back to the loudness issue. The drummer we play with is great, his sound is integral the music, so that can't change. He talked about getting smaller drums.. jazz kit sizes to reduce some of the volume from the drums, but until that time comes I need to figure out something to project more.
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Post by mudskipper on Feb 26, 2007 14:23:03 GMT -7
i'd add another 12" rather than going with a 4x10.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 26, 2007 14:25:49 GMT -7
Yeah, recently I tried tilting the amp back and pointing directly at me. That helped a bit. For me the constant battle is trying cut through but not be too harsh with the tone. One thing that I don't like about the Maz 38 is that it gets really harsh with some guitars when the preamp gain gets cranks. Its that Vox quality I guess. I played a Gretsch with it for while, it was just too much bite. Then I got a Hamer Newport with p-90's. That helped to bring a little more woodiness with the lower mids but still retained the sparkle. Anyway... Getting back to the loudness issue. The drummer we play with is great, his sound is integral the music, so that can't change. He talked about getting smaller drums.. jazz kit sizes to reduce some of the volume from the drums, but until that time comes I need to figure out something to project more. If you're fighting harshness you should try a beam blocker. They really help in that regard. A good example - my THD 2x12 cab was killing the folks in the front row, but after I put the beam blockers in they quit complaining even though I turned up. It sure is worth a try. The side benefit was that it helped to disperse my sound more evenly, so I could hear myself across a much wider space envelope than before. They really do help.
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Post by 909one on Feb 26, 2007 16:42:10 GMT -7
Hmmm... I've never heard of that beam blocker before. A quick google search filled me in on the details. Very interesting, apparently SRV put tape on the grill cloth right in front of the speaker to achieve a similar effect.
They are super cheap, its worth a try.
Thanks benttop!
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 26, 2007 19:51:16 GMT -7
Hmmm... I've never heard of that beam blocker before. A quick google search filled me in on the details. Very interesting, apparently SRV put tape on the grill cloth right in front of the speaker to achieve a similar effect. They are super cheap, its worth a try. Thanks benttop! Yeah, you can find out if it's going to help by just taping a circle of cardboard on the grill cloth right in front of the center of your speaker. Does the same thing, just not permanent.
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Post by billyguitar on Feb 27, 2007 8:17:15 GMT -7
I really like the BBs. I think they also help tame the bite from ceramic magnet speakers.
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Post by mudskipper on Feb 27, 2007 8:41:46 GMT -7
not to derail the thread but i stopped using BleamBlockers a while ago. i'd rather have a couple of strips of duct/gaffers tape, face my amp to a near-by wall or place an object (to act as a deflector) in front of my cab. the problem for me was that i could never control BeamBlocker on the fly and it's confusing for people how to mic the cab.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 27, 2007 8:56:53 GMT -7
...it's confusing for people how to mic the cab. Really? On my THD cabs I made a tiny black mark on the grill cloth where I want the mic. Now I wish I hadn't, but the mic is always in the right spot! Really though, every sound guy I've ever seen has one of those mini-flashlights hanging from his belt. You flash it through the grill, see where the beam blocker is, and put the mic somewhere else.
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Post by kruzty on Feb 27, 2007 9:02:41 GMT -7
I always had mine with the retainer strips horizonatal. It was alittle awkward to mic the cab. Then I saw on here someone had their's mounted diagonally. That's a much better way to mount it to get the mic in a "normal" place! It just never occurred to me...
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Post by John on Feb 27, 2007 9:16:11 GMT -7
I'll second the beam blockers.
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Post by 909one on Feb 27, 2007 10:27:11 GMT -7
Thanks for the advice on the beam blocker, or tape. I haven't had a chance to try it yet but I was reading somewhere that because the focus of speaker is dispersed by the beam blocker that it can actually lower the apparent volume of the speaker. This would help the harshness problem but not help with the original point of my thread. This was to figure out if more speakers will help raise the volume enough to warrant buying an extension cab. Or, do I just need more powerful amp with more headroom? I guess I have two opposing quandaries at this point...
I guess it makes obvious sense that more speakers will be louder, but I have played with people that have had those Mesa/Boogie Mark II's with a 1x12 and those things can blow everything out of the water in terms of loudness. I just don't want to buy a new cab if the change in volume is only going to be marginal.
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Post by John on Feb 27, 2007 10:35:01 GMT -7
Here's what I think the beam blockers do for me.
Guitar speakers can be very directional. If you're standing on stage with the amp close to your ankles, you're sending out a blast of louder sound (or a beam if you will) right past your shoes and into the audience. So the majority of the sound is going out into the audience, but you can't hear yourself.
A beam blocker stops this blast of directional sound and sends it in all directions. So you've eliminated killing the first row of seats, and re-directed some of that sound upwards towards your ears.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 27, 2007 10:43:40 GMT -7
Thanks for the advice on the beam blocker, or tape. I haven't had a chance to try it yet but I was reading somewhere that because the focus of speaker is dispersed by the beam blocker that it can actually lower the apparent volume of the speaker. This would help the harshness problem but not help with the original point of my thread. This was to figure out if more speakers will help raise the volume enough to warrant buying an extension cab. Or, do I just need more powerful amp with more headroom? I guess I have two opposing quandaries at this point... I guess it makes obvious sense that more speakers will be louder, but I have played with people that have had those Mesa/Boogie Mark II's with a 1x12 and those things can blow everything out of the water in terms of loudness. I just don't want to buy a new cab if the change in volume is only going to be marginal. Actually I suggested the Beam Blockers when you mentioned that you had tried elevating or tilting your amp but the sound was too harsh. With the Beam Blockers in place, you should be able to point the amp at your head much more successfully than before. You should also be able to turn up more. It's going to take some experimentation, and you may still want a second cab or even more power - everyone's situation is different. If you've got a sound company taking care of the audience, tilting or elevating your amp with a beam blocker in place may be a good compromise, and it sure is a lot cheaper. In the end, only you will know for sure, but the Beam Blockers are so cheap it's worth a try before you dive in on a second cab. Not everyone likes the Beam Blockers, as you've seen from the thread, so it's difficult to say whether you will like them or not. But they sure do have a lot of users on this forum. YMMV.
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Post by 909one on Feb 27, 2007 11:36:10 GMT -7
Thanks for the advice on this stuff. I've got some more experimenting to do and a drummer to silence.
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Post by billyguitar on Feb 27, 2007 11:40:51 GMT -7
That drummer is also blowing your ears! He's got to change or go, especially if the clubs start telling you the band is too loud. I think everbody ought to chip in for the big plexi drummer shields.
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Post by 909one on Feb 27, 2007 11:49:56 GMT -7
Yeah thats another problem all together. I am already noticing problems with my ears. I wear earplugs now but I didn't when I was younger. The problem his playing is integral to the sound of the band.. l live in Chicago and there are alot of drummers here, but his way playing is very unique. He has talked about getting a smaller drum kit so I that will be a step in the right direction.
Honestly if I was standing in a room by myself with the amp cranked up to where it was when the whole band is playing, I would be able to tolerate it for more than a few minutes. There is something wrong with that. I never could get why rock music has spawned this idea that you need to play at ear damaging levels in order to be cool.
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Post by mudskipper on Feb 27, 2007 12:22:24 GMT -7
...it's confusing for people how to mic the cab. Really? On my THD cabs I made a tiny black mark on the grill cloth where I want the mic. Now I wish I hadn't, but the mic is always in the right spot! Really though, every sound guy I've ever seen has one of those mini-flashlights hanging from his belt. You flash it through the grill, see where the beam blocker is, and put the mic somewhere else. yeah, don't ask.... i even have mine painted silver to stand out (from behind the black grill cloth), so that people know that there's something there without shining anything. i didn't happen very often but it did. the bottom line for me was that BleamBlockers didn't make me like the speakers that i didn't like... if you know what i mean. and pointing the amp towards something (a wall, a barrier, etc) did a lot more to disperse the sound and control stage volume. FYI, i believe BeamBlocker is most effective in dispersing the treble frequencies.
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Post by Hohn on Mar 6, 2007 14:48:31 GMT -7
...it's confusing for people how to mic the cab. Really? On my THD cabs I made a tiny black mark on the grill cloth where I want the mic. Now I wish I hadn't, but the mic is always in the right spot! Really though, every sound guy I've ever seen has one of those mini-flashlights hanging from his belt. You flash it through the grill, see where the beam blocker is, and put the mic somewhere else. I don't really care for ANY speaker to be miked right at the dustcap. I tend to place is about 2"-3" from the dustcap edge with the mic pointing at that edge. jh
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