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Post by Pete aka shouldb on May 26, 2013 23:52:56 GMT -7
We played a big private school summer ball last Friday (250 people - lovely hall with a great stage), and I've left it a couple of days to report back to try and get a handle on it. The school is a long way away - 4 hours each way - but they fed us and let us stay over, which was great. Very strange night. Not the ball itself. That was very straightforward - lots of very beautiful, well groomed 18 year olds, their very wealthy and well groomed parents, and their very well paid teachers, all trying hard to misbehave without being seen to misbehave. Usual stuff. No, the strangeness was in the band and the sound etc. Band was drums, bass, 2x girl singers, guitarist/keyboardist, and me on guitar (LP Special P90s/Strat, small pedal board, Remedy 1x12 - 20W, and trying some hotter settings: TM&B all around 11-noon; HV - 2; NV - 11; MV ended up at 2) Okay, straight up the Remedy sounded AWESOME! Simple as that. Nothing unexpected, but AWESOME all the same. I am seriously liking the hotter HV at 2 o'clock, and rolling the Guitar Volume back to clean up. It has plenty of zing and sizzle and sustain - wonderful! Yet, as the evening progressed, a problem arose - I couldn't get the Remedy to cut through the mix. I could stomp on EQ Bypass / OD / Clean Boosts all night, but it just didn't cut through! I even rewired my pedal board on the fly to put the EP at the end of the chain, and turned it up half way! Still no cut through as all I was doing was saturating the front end of the amp. So I'm suddenly getting worried and wondering would my Z28 have been a better choice of amp!! We start the third set, and all was revealed! Our bass player, who is also our sound guy, forgot to un-mute the on stage monitors before we began. In we go full tilt, and suddenly I can hear EVERYTHING, and EVERYONE (keys and vox were bouncing off back wall from FOH system, but other than a short delay, I could hear them clearly). Sounded GREAT and the Remedy was cutting through the mix fabulously!! Keys guys starts yelling across the stage that he can't hear himself so bass player un-mutes the monitors for the second song, and it all goes to pot right there! Suddenly this almighty wall of sound appears on stage (i wear acoustic earplugs, and my ears were still ringing!) and the articulation of the sound vanishes!! I could barely hear myself above keys/vox/guitar/ NOISE basically. I had been asking him to turn down the monitor on our side of the stage all night, which he kept doing, allegedly, but it seemed to make no difference (NO-ONE touches HIS mixing desk, EVER, except him!!). Singers kept struggling with the volume and asking him to turn it down, which he kept kept doing, allegedly, with no difference. Problem was, that level of volume tires you out, so eventually we were just beat. Our energy levels faded, and so our musicality faded, and by the end of the night we were all glad, audience included, to finish our set and shut up! I felt very deflated to be honest. It is a GREAT gig, and this was our 5th year doing it, but we may have blown it. Feedback after was good, but not great Band debrief after was interesting as bass player had had to zoom off and not stay over. Once everyone else started to mention it, the flood gates opened - deep frustration all around! Also turns out that bass player has been paying regular visits to a hearing specialist and it seems he is profoundly deaf in certain frequencies smack in the middle of the contemporary music range!! And he's our sound guy! and a very touchy, proud and prickly guy he is too. Next band gathering and debrief should be..........interesting!! If you've read this far, you a braver person than me - sorry for the long brain dump! Stage ready to receive the band: Close up of the rig: Some of the audience eating dinner: The band just as we finished, taken from balcony by staff member: You can see me struggling to hear myself on stage, yet it I'm well down the mix in this pop song, and I was deafened by the onstage sound, yet the FOH is pretty straight ahead. In truth the FOH is all that matters really, and it ain't too bad in this one. (Forgive the impromptu audience participation - who says all teenagers can sing, eh?? ) This one was okay on stage - quieter vibe, so the on stage sound was good, but I still needed a bit more FOH to balance things. You can see the desk behind the bass player, well guarded!!
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Post by John on May 27, 2013 3:20:03 GMT -7
Sounds like someone else needs to 'touch' his soundboard.
And this should not be a negotiated issue.
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on May 27, 2013 3:42:53 GMT -7
Sounds like someone else needs to 'touch' his soundboard. And this should not be a negotiated issue. What we desperately need is an independent sound guy. A good friend of mine, an ex DJ, did this for us for a season, but walked away as Mr Bassman just wouldn't let go and used him only as a roadie! " My ball, my rules" is basically his attitude, although he would never overtly say so (he owns all the PA and lighting gear, and it is EXCELLENT gear too!). He sets the gear up on stage behind him and no-one gets near it!
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Post by nmz on May 27, 2013 4:03:49 GMT -7
That does not sound like a team player. We use to have a good sound guy with great gear but in the end we bought our own with band funds. We have to do our sound from time to time other times we have a friend that we taught. It works much better now.
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Post by Maddog on May 27, 2013 5:07:32 GMT -7
Sounds like someone else needs to 'touch' his soundboard. And this should not be a negotiated issue. Mr Bassman just wouldn't let go and used him only as a roadie! " My ball, my rules" is basically his attitude "There-in" lies the problem Pete, but you already know that. Is this your regular band? Or just an occasional bunch of friends/musicians? I would gather the group for a pow wow, and refuse to do that gig (or any gig???) again unless he yields and alters his attitude toward becoming a "band" member....he obviously can't (or won't) allow your band to sound its best due to his childish attitude. And when the volume or balance starts to get out-of-hand, you've lost your gig....As we all know, you just cannot pound an audience with volume song after song without fatiguing their ears and interest (unless you're name is Angus). You must have volume dynamics both within songs and within your set lists; and once you lose your own ability to appreciate your music because of constant overpowering volume or just frustration, you can bet the crowd has too.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on May 27, 2013 6:14:56 GMT -7
Go pick up a used mixer and hire a guy to run it. The bass player can keep his at home.
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on May 27, 2013 12:46:12 GMT -7
oh man, you guys are SO right! Issue is, I am the new boy in the band, even though it's been 8 years!! Bassman has been there 12, so I'm basically Ronnie Wood to his Keef! Also, in those 8 years, I have grown SOOOOO much as a musician. Before that I had virtually stopped playing, and had only played bass for years before that! My "authority" in the band is zip. The rest of the band just want an easy life and will bend and flex rather than tackle an issue.
It's got to the stage now where only he gets to do FOH balance while we sound check and have to accept what he sets. It seems me being the only one to challenge him has "encouraged" him to put me WAY down the mix! Our keys guy set up a Zoom at the back of the hall on a balcony to record some of the evening (he's just posted some of it on FB), and I am almost non-existent in the mix. I make a couple of clams because I can't hear myself!!
Oh, listen to me bitchin' !! I do love playing with the singers - they are GREAT! So I am going to sort this out this summer for sure....... or I'm looking for another main band. That's a promise, and a deadline.
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Post by brayks on May 27, 2013 16:42:36 GMT -7
What a bummer Pete. Very sorry hear how things went pear shaped on you. Hopefully it did not create a problem for future gigs there.
I agree with steve. We had the same problem until we picked up a new mixer (Presonus 16.4.2) the beauty of this mixer is once set-up you can save scenes for easy recall and modifications making it very easy to run. You can also use their iPad/iPod app to control both the over all mix AND each individuals mix. Our sound got orders of magnitude better after picking this baby up as did band harmony and enjoyment.
Great pic's BTW.....
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2013 23:00:13 GMT -7
Nice pics Pete!! Looked like a great place to play...too bad about your sound woes...that can turn a great show sour in a heartbeat.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 0:11:32 GMT -7
Pete great pic's and interesting story. Sorry to hear about your sound problems. Nothing worse then not being able to hear yourself and having to deal with sound guys who are difficult to deal with let alone be a band member. Hope you all can work it out with him.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 5:40:19 GMT -7
Pete--you've got a Remedy, man. Screw the basshole--turn that sucker UP!!!
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on May 28, 2013 5:54:18 GMT -7
Pete--you've got a Remedy, man. Screw the basshole--turn that sucker UP!!! Yep.... gotta stop acting like band leader, and start acting like lead guitarist!!
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 6:18:48 GMT -7
Next time try the old "mess with the soundman" trick and turn your rig WAY down for soundcheck, so he turns you up in the mix Then, first solo--hit that bypass and blast his arse. He'll shake his head in dismay and turn you way down. At that point you're your own sound guy--hit that 40-watt switch and set the MV where you want it. You might even get yourself a wireless rig so you can walk out into the room and listen to the mix. If other band members complain about your stage volume, tell 'em you couldn't hear yourself.
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Post by wubberdubber on May 28, 2013 15:01:37 GMT -7
That soundman has got to GO....there are too many other people involved in a gig to be held at his mercy.
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Post by doctorice on May 28, 2013 15:23:52 GMT -7
Pete,
Sorry to hear about this lousy situation and how it spoiled a fun gig.
I am the de facto sound guy for my bands for most (indoor) gigs. We often keep it really simple with one FOH mix and one monitor mix with only vocals (well, also harp) going into the PA. At larger places, I'll mic the kick drum and put some guitar in a monitor mix (and use multiple monitor mixes). When we do the occasional big show, indoors or out, we hire a sound person and his/her gear.
Right after the first song -- we generally don't do/have time for soundchecks at bar gigs -- I ask everyone if they can hear themselves, are comfortable with the mix they're getting, etc. If so, great. If not, I do a quick adjustment. Seems to work. It also helps that the guys realize some places have suboptimal acoustics and getting a good sound to the audience may cause some compromises in stage balance.
I hope your group can sort this out and that the "control freak" relaxes his grip.
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on May 29, 2013 2:46:17 GMT -7
Pete, Sorry to hear about this lousy situation and how it spoiled a fun gig. I am the de facto sound guy for my bands for most (indoor) gigs. We often keep it really simple with one FOH mix and one monitor mix with only vocals (well, also harp) going into the PA. At larger places, I'll mic the kick drum and put some guitar in a monitor mix (and use multiple monitor mixes). When we do the occasional big show, indoors or out, we hire a sound person and his/her gear. Right after the first song -- we generally don't do/have time for soundchecks at bar gigs -- I ask everyone if they can hear themselves, are comfortable with the mix they're getting, etc. If so, great. If not, I do a quick adjustment. Seems to work. It also helps that the guys realize some places have suboptimal acoustics and getting a good sound to the audience may cause some compromises in stage balance. I hope your group can sort this out and that the "control freak" relaxes his grip. Thanks Mike - some good ideas in there for us! I think you've nailed it - "control freak". He's a really nice guy and puts a huge amount of effort and money into the band, so at first glance anyone would wonder what the problem was, but at heart, he's a control freak! Well, we have another rehearsal this Friday for the next gig, so we will get the chance to debrief then, and I'll be raising the issue in a calm and professional way. No good will come of loads of emotion with this guy!!
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Post by doctorice on May 29, 2013 4:43:00 GMT -7
A tangential anecdote: Our former sixth member -- we're a quintet now -- is an accomplished musician who owns and operates a recording studio and does some live sound work. He was our sound guy. We frequently had issues with feedback, were seldom fully set up until five minutes after the gig was supposed to begin, etc. Go figure.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2013 8:48:04 GMT -7
Band drama sucks. We're going at it again in our little neighborhood hobby band. Just ridiculous.
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Post by Dustin on May 29, 2013 9:47:23 GMT -7
Band drama sucks. We're going at it again in our little neighborhood hobby band. Just ridiculous. I know the feeling. I just had to part ways with a band after we almost got tossed out of a gig over the drummer's pregnant girlfriend doing coke in the bathroom. Apparently I was the only one that had a problem with that (for MANY reasons, as I'm sure you can guess : . Thanks for sharing the pics and video, Pete; that looks like a cool room to play. I've found that the only thing harder to find than a good bass player is finding a good sound guy. Here's hoping you can work something out!
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Post by John on May 29, 2013 11:28:10 GMT -7
Next time try the old "mess with the soundman" trick and turn your rig WAY down for soundcheck, so he turns you up in the mix I do that almost every gig!!! I don't give them my 'lead solo' volume...I give them my tucked-back-in-the-mix volume. I'm not lying....I'm giving them the volume I'll use most of the time. Too many people give them blasting guitar solo volume during soundcheck. So when it comes time to back off for rhythm...you're too far down in the mix.
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Post by nunesbob on May 30, 2013 12:08:31 GMT -7
Looked thru your other videos and didn't see you playing any leads, but I think the full power setting is what you need in a band of that size. Monitor mix may be off but the FOH sounds about right.
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Post by Stan on May 30, 2013 12:39:56 GMT -7
i had a listen to the above videos pete but really could hear the issue of your lead,
while i was on youtube i found this
and now i can clearly hear what your saying, your lead was pretty much lost in the mix
even when you boost a pedal there wasn't enough volume increase
good luck solving this issue i whole hardheartedly understand and your right :>)
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Post by Stan on May 30, 2013 12:40:17 GMT -7
i had a listen to the above videos pete but really could hear the issue of your lead,
while i was on youtube i found this
and now i can clearly hear what your saying, your lead was pretty much lost in the mix
even when you boost a pedal there wasn't enough volume increase
good luck solving this issue i whole hardheartedly understand and your right :>)
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Post by vanceen on May 30, 2013 14:29:51 GMT -7
Good singing and playing.
The lead guitar level isn't the only problem, though. When the song first started, I actually thought "what a shame they don't have an organ on this". Then the organ (which should have been strong on the iconic "D-----C#-D-C#-B----" melody line before the verse)came peeping through a little. And then, during your lead, the organ was really, really loud. You should have been louder but it might have been OK if the organ hadn't been powering out there.
The guy seems to be very good and the sound of the organ was great. But I guess he did his sound check with the volume pedal about one third of the way on!
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Post by nunesbob on May 30, 2013 14:33:28 GMT -7
If you can't hear yourself above the monitor mix then I would turn up the amp. I'm always louder then the monitor. I still think the 20 watt setting is not enough for a room that big and a band that size.
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on May 30, 2013 16:25:05 GMT -7
Good singing and playing. The lead guitar level isn't the only problem, though. When the song first started, I actually thought "what a shame they don't have an organ on this". Then the organ (which should have been strong on the iconic "D-----C#-D-C#-B----" melody line before the verse)came peeping through a little. And then, during your lead, the organ was really, really loud. You should have been louder but it might have been OK if the organ hadn't been powering out there. The guy seems to be very good and the sound of the organ was great. But I guess he did his sound check with the volume pedal about one third of the way on! Hmm. The keyboard player heavily boosts his volume doing my solo as he gets "into the song" I've asked him not to, but he just shrugs and ignores me......... I do like his tone though, but he's just on the insensitive side. I now I could greatly boost my volume, but that's like an arms race, however, having heard this, I will be doing the 40W setting and going as loud as I need to. Thanks for the input
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Post by doctorice on May 30, 2013 20:03:36 GMT -7
Time to remind the band that when the guitar is taking a solo it needs to be about as loud as the main vocals and that you will return to being part of the backing instruments after concluding your moment in the spotlight. Therefore, Mr. Keyboard Player you do not need to turn up during a guitar solo unless you would also turn up when the ladies are singing their leads.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 5:30:58 GMT -7
^^^. What the docta said.
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Post by John on May 31, 2013 7:42:42 GMT -7
Pete...why do you have your amp pointed at one of the singers? If you're going to go up in stage volume while pointed at singers, you'll have them yelling at you too.
My general rule: If possible I NEVER point my amp at a singer....or a soundman.
Put the bass player on the other side of the drummer. Usually I don't like to be on the same side as a bass player.
As for the keyboard player "just shrugs and ignores me" when asked to turn down during your solo....Oh, I'd be in his face every frickin' gig!
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Post by doctorice on May 31, 2013 8:21:34 GMT -7
Put the bass player on the other side of the drummer. Usually I don't like to be on the same side as a bass player. Good observation, John. It made a big improvement when I pushed the bass player to set up on the other side of the drummer.
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