|
Post by digiTED aka 'Ted' on Mar 19, 2013 10:14:52 GMT -7
Many of you have probably noticed I've been trying to trade away my Monza MV. In the last few weeks of trying to horse trade, I've been playing it non-stop (LOL). I've also been pulling out a bunch of tone nuggets from my stash, which convinced me to keep this lil' monster I was looking for greater control over the edge tones and brighter, more open crunch. Boy, did I find it! Basically for the price of shipping on an amp trade that I was hoping would bring the tones I thought were lacking, I have tuned the Monza to my needs and man, it delvers the goods now!
JJ, EHX, Tung-Sol RI for new production and for ANOS/NOS: Philips JAN WXA, Telefunken, RFT, and Amperex Bugle Boy.
These are listed in ascending order of my preference. Hope someone finds some interesting / useful comparisons here! Here's the rig:
2010 Monza 1x10 w/ Gold Les Paul Tribute w/ Lollar P90s Hwy 1 Tele w/ Fralin/CS Broadcaster Here are the other tubes:
v2: fresh EHX 12AX7LPS v3-4: fresh JJ EL84 v5: fresh JJ GZ34
7: JJ ECC83 (current):
+ thick in the low mids + cheap + seems robust + easy to find
x kinda dark in general x prone to mud at higher gain x basic detail x basic cleans
6: ANOS Telefunken ECC83 (60's?):
+/x super hi-fi, accurate. "Hi-Fi" and "Monza" are not really what I'm after, though!
+ Nice for clean fingerpicking, better with the Tele.
x quite harsh w/ V above 12:00 x very pricey
5: NOS Philips JAN 12AX7WA (late 70's):
+ killer cleans; very glassy, smooth (was amazing in my Carr Rambler) + articulate at all gain levels + burly build
x gets harsh in the upper mids at higher gain
4: EHX 12AX7 (current):
+ good all-around performance, but not stellar at anything. + quite cheap and easy to come by + solid build
x not terribly detailed x not as harmonically dynamic
3: Tung-Sol RI 12AX7 (current):
+ SMOOTH saturation, like a good Trappist + edge texture is very subtle and dynamic + halls the Tone control stay useful throughout its range + relatively cheap and easy to come by + seems like a solid build
x gets a bit muddy at the highest gain settings x also presents some fizz at the highest settings.
2: ANOS RFT ECC83 (late 70's, early 80's?):
+ warm, round cleans + transitions organically between clean and break-up + killer crunch texture, esp. w/ P90s + well balanced EQ: tight lows, clear but not sizzling highs + still a good buy for NOS/ANOS
x getting harder to find
1: NOS Amperex ECC83 'Bugle Boy' (late 50's I believe):
+ everything I like about the RFT, but more + gorgeous cleans + almost Trainwreck-esque in how controllable the clean / break-up transition is + holds together all the way up the Monza's significant saturation abilities + brings out upper harmonics the others in this list didn't, even when clean!
x quite expensive x ? ? ?
|
|
bartc
Junior Member
Posts: 59
|
Post by bartc on May 9, 2014 22:20:49 GMT -7
Thanks for sharing your experimentation. My Monza stock is too one dimensional, so I tried a few tube and speaker tweaks, and have found some more magic. I first changed out the 12" Celestion for an Alnico Eminence Red Fang! I used two Very old RCA 5751 black plates for the 12AX7 tubes. The P/I is matched. I also removed the rectifier and used a Weber copper cap. The amp has a whole new palate of tones. More clean, more chime, less sag. With a Tele it really sounds like a muscular Vox, and not as Marshall. I also tried an Eminence Legend speaker and it was even better. More punchy and less flat.
|
|
|
Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on May 10, 2014 12:39:55 GMT -7
Very cool, digiTED. I, too, have recently discovered the beauty of an NOS RFT 12AX7 in V1 (in my Ghia, though--which I feel is quite similar to the Monza). I believe it has turned a "well, this is OK but I'm not thrilled with it" amp into a "wow, this is quite an impressive amp" amp.
|
|
|
Post by simpleton on May 11, 2014 12:54:01 GMT -7
I'm on the verge of getting a Monza head to accompany my Ghia....It's cool to hear that the Monza seems as responsive to what's input into it; I guess I wasn't sure if a "high" gain style amp would be as sensitive to what it's seeing.
|
|
|
Post by kanegon on Mar 19, 2015 9:07:57 GMT -7
I've only had mine for a day, but I've found that V1 is the tone "establisher", meaning it sets the difference between massive crunch or more headroom. I've tried vintage 5751s in one and both positions, but if there's a 12ax7 in V1, you'll get less headroom no matter what, especially with newer modern valves. Two 5751s made it a little too dark for my taste, the power section sounded starved and it lost a lot of the Z fatness. Put the LPS back into V2 and got the fat right back -- with the 5751 in V1 providing the extra clarity/chime. Likewise, I wanted a little more sag for the cleans so I swapped out the 5AR4 with an old RCA 5v4, which Doc suggests rather than the even saggier/chewier 5AU4 or 5Y3. There's a temptation to turn it into a Ghia, but Ghia's saggy mid twang will come at the expense of Monza's high gain goodness. In other words, you can't get too carried away with emasculating the Monza's high gain circuit, but you can definitely get more headroom via lower power preamp tubes.
|
|
|
Post by kanegon on Apr 16, 2015 14:45:35 GMT -7
Ahh, forget it. After using the 5751 for a month, I'm back to using a 12ax7 longplate and I do think it sounds better. The Monza wants that extra gain! I tried a trusty TS reissue, short plate GE, JJ and another LPS, but an old GE long plate seemed to do it best. Gonna close her back up now - for a while, anyway... 3 GE 12AX7s: LP; 12AX7A, grey SP
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2015 10:19:28 GMT -7
Thanks for sharing your findings. I love my m/v Monza so much, I haven't swapped anything yet. But this knowledge sure helps.
|
|
|
Post by premiumplus (Dave) on May 16, 2015 17:50:54 GMT -7
I tried several old RCA, Telefunken, Sylvania, and Westinghouse 12AX7's in my Monza, and ended up with the Sovteks that shipped with it. They just sounded better all around, better cleans and better crunch/drive tone too. I couldn't believe it.
|
|
|
Post by driventone on Jun 18, 2023 22:40:23 GMT -7
When I first got my Monza, the last owner had put an RCA 12AT7 in V1. It sounded good, but I wanted to try others. I used a Russian Mullard CV4004, and a Genalex Gold Lion gold pin CV4004 (I guess those are kind of the same tube really, just higher quality in the Genalex). I settled on an RCA 5751 and used that for quite a while.
Recently, I rolled through a bunch of different types. To mention a few, I tried a Sylvania, a short plate UK Mullard, and a 3 mica long plate Toshiba (labeled Channel Master) that was a serious contender. It sounded better than the Mullard.
I had a few different JJ ECC83S’s, one of them testing higher (in transconductance) than the other 2, so I tried that one and I was really happy with it. I’ve had it in there for a few weeks now.
I was playing the amp yesterday, and it still sounds fantastic, but I did notice that it gets a tad muddy with the gain set toward high end. It’s no big deal because I don’t need that much gain anyway. But, after reading above that the RFT’s and Bugle Boy’s seemed to do well, I think I’m going to give those a try, just for fun, since I’ve got a few of each.
|
|
|
Post by RickJames on Jun 19, 2023 14:00:32 GMT -7
Great research, thanks much
|
|
|
Post by driventone on Oct 3, 2023 10:06:18 GMT -7
I was playing the amp yesterday (with the JJ in V1), and it still sounds fantastic, but I did notice that it gets a tad muddy with the gain set toward high end. It’s no big deal because I don’t need that much gain anyway. But, after reading above that the RFT’s and Bugle Boy’s seemed to do well, I think I’m going to give those a try, just for fun, since I’ve got a few of each. I finally got around to trying the RFT and the Bugle Boy. I have both short plate and long plate Bugle Boy’s, but the one I tried was a short plate. First, let me address the “tad muddy” comment above. Sometimes I forget to mention that I play at home, usually under 95-100 db. The PPIMV on my Monza is usually set very low to achieve that volume. The sound I was referring to is with the pre-volume at about 3:00, and the drive at about 1:30. This is already more gain than I’d use, and if I didn’t have a PPIMV, or if I turned it all the way up so it was essentially out of the circuit, it would be way, way, WAY too loud. “Muddy” wasn’t the way to describe this. “Muddy” probably means loose in the lower mids, which is not what this is at all. I think what I was hearing was the distortion starting to cross over into fuzz, because if I pushed it further to say 3:30 or 4:00, I was getting a bit of that cool fuzz tone that other PPIMV Monza owners have mentioned. In retrospect, I think I just wasn’t hearing it at 3:00 with the UK Mullard, the Toshiba, and the 5751 since they all seem to be lower gain (obviously the 5751 is much lower) than the JJ. What really made me realize this was the RFT. When I ran it with the same settings as the JJ, I got the fuzz to start a bit earlier. Overall, it was a bit more gainy, maybe a little fatter sounding, but not really too much different than the JJ. I did like the Bugle Boy in the Monza. It was pretty similar to the JJ, but maybe with a bit more clarity and character when running heavier gain. I guess you might say the overdrive was a bit tighter. But guess what? I’m back to the JJ. The only tube I might choose to use there instead would be the Bugle Boy, but the minuscule difference isn’t worth using that tube for my situation. If I were going to record, I might consider it. I have other amps that are FAR more sensitive to preamp tube changes, which can be frustrating. The main thing I’ve learned is that the Monza sounds great no matter what kind of tube you use in V1. If I’m honest, I’m pretty sure I couldn’t tell the difference in a blind test, and I really love the way this amp sounds as is. It was a fun exercise, I love tinkering with amps. But now it’s time to get back to enjoying the amp!
|
|
|
Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Oct 4, 2023 2:54:26 GMT -7
This is a great thread. Glad it was brought back as I must have missed it. I need to see what’s in my Monza, love that amp.
|
|
dr355
New Member
Posts: 48
|
Post by dr355 on Oct 4, 2023 6:34:59 GMT -7
I've had a NOS Monza head for a couple of years, and just got a 1x10 combo. In a live setting some players feel there isn't enough chime, or high end. From an audience perspective, I think that can be an advantage. I will get feedback on my tone on certain amps that have a brighter sound projection. The audience gets a harder hit on the highs than we think they do. I love the way the Monza sits nicely in a band mix.
|
|