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Post by The Fifth Column on Dec 19, 2006 21:11:19 GMT -7
Hey everyone, this is my third thread on these forums but the more I read the more interesting topics I see a couple of people saying they have some Warmoth guitars so I thought I'd get some opinions on them. Hopefully there isn't already a thread about this, if so, sorry for the duplicate.
I have two very untraditional Warmoth guitars and only three guitars total.
My first is a PRS style body with 3 humbuckers each with a coil tap. Mahogany with a maple neck and a full scalloped ebony fretboard.
The second and my favorite is a LP style with standard LP setup and neck etc but with a graphite nut, locking tuners and a wilkinson tremolo. Oh ans some of the neatest pickups I've ever heard, SDdesigns Dirty Harry's. They're single coils that look like humbuckers without poles and they sound a lot like the old Kay DeArmond Pickups and also kind of like a P-90. Great for slide, jazz or very raunchy rock and roll.
At the time I got both of them I guess I was trying to put a little two much into a single guitar as since I've had the newest one, although I love how it plays I'm looking at simpler guitars like LP Standards and ES-335s more and more, (of course I can't afford them right now).
I've had no problems with my LP style yet but on the other either I have a warped neck on or loose frets because if the action isn't pretty high with a fair amount of relief in the neck it buzzes at the 3-4 frets. I'm holding off on taking this one in for tech work because unfortunately it has stainless frets, something I am now not very fond of but I really don't have the money right now to have it completely refretted.
So you who have played Warmoth parts guitars or necks what have you thought of them? Any neck troubles? How about some comparisons to some of the major brands in quality, playability or sound?
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Post by mward on Dec 20, 2006 5:21:30 GMT -7
I haven't heard of any neck troubles particular to warmoth, but they send out their necks unfinished and if you don't finish them properly, it can cause problems later on.
I'd say take the strings off, get the neck as flat as possible with the truss rod, and then lay a straightedge on the frets to see why you're getting the buzzing on 3-4. It might be that #2 is low. I'd also hazard a guess that it's pretty rare for a neck to warp that high up. Loose frets might be the culprit and slipping a little superglue under the offender and holding it down while it cures could be a much simpler fix than a refret. There are directions in Erlewine's book. Warmoth also offers a warranty so if the neck was finished properly and now it's acting odd, you might want to send it back in.
All that said, I don't have a warmoth -yet-, but I like the idea. They have some options on their necks that I like a lot such as compound radius and any fretwire you like. I'm sure if I don't have a complete warmoth guitar soon, I will have a neck on something here.
Just my 2 cents.
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Post by mudskipper on Dec 20, 2006 7:42:44 GMT -7
i've used Warmoth necks since the early/mid 80's and the quality of their products have changed quite a bit over the years. i've said this in different forums, too, but their necks aren't as good as they used to be. i think it's directly related to the increased output/demands for the necks. i've had Warmoth necks with humps, loose frets and inproper seating of frets as well as the neck being unstable. if you like to set your action on the high side, you may not notice all of these things. unfortunately i like my action pretty low, so they are big issues. i've played a few recent USACG necks and they've all been great. they were impressive enough for me to go buy one last year and mine was great out of the box. it hasn't moved much at all since the installation, either.
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Post by The Fifth Column on Dec 20, 2006 12:19:14 GMT -7
Yeah, I can believe that not finishing it right can effect it but both of these were finished by them.
When I first got the PRS style guitar I did like the action a bit higher but seeing as how its scalloped you really don't need it high at all as I learned and I've grown to like a pretty low action. I've had techs tell me everything from the truss rod doesn't work, to its warped in the lower registers with this guitar. When I adjust the truss it definitely seems to straighten out but its hard to tell because of the scalloping and the frets probably being off.
I don't know if its the frets or the neck or what because it buzzes at everything lower than 3-4 (lower in the register in case that isn't clear). And I didn't think that necks tended to warp that low either, especially with a double truss rod. I kind of think to fix it, it needs to be refretted. I thought I'd heard somewhere someone say something about stainless frets at times being too stiff that they effect the neck when its adjusted but I could have imagined that.
Maybe I just got a bad one? Is a maple neck more likely to warp? I've actually had this neck sent back to Warmoth after the tech I was going to at the time thought he saw a hump forming in those lower frets. This tech seemed to know what he was talking about at the time, but I didn't really like how he set up my slide guitar so I don't go there anymore. I sent it back and Warmoth said it should adjust straight with no hump and that it just needs a fret level...
Seems to me that'd be a pretty serious fret level from the way it buzzes though
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Post by mudskipper on Dec 20, 2006 14:03:19 GMT -7
if you have their angled headstock, you'd have a scarf joint at around 1st~3rd fret. since that area would be much stiffer than the rest, the 'rod may not have as much effect in that area (even with a double action 'rod). so if you were to tighten the 'rod to straighten your neck, you might have a slight back bow starting at around the 3rd fret when the upper register is straight. you'd end up with the open A chord buzzing. if you try to get rid of that by loosening the 'rod, you'd end up with much higher action as you go up the neck (as in move towards the body).
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Post by The Fifth Column on Dec 20, 2006 15:28:14 GMT -7
Thats interesting I wasn't thinking about that at all. Weird because both are angled stocks but the LP one is Mahogany and it doesn't seem to do that, or at least not to my eye and fingers. Are there ways to compensate for that without putting too much relief in the neck? I remember reading in one of Dan Erlewine's books about helping a neck into position if it won't straighten... maybe something like that? Does that happen on production instruments too with angled stocks or is it specific to Warmoth or Bolt on necks with angled stocks?
Oh, and when you say to loosen the 'rod, How much relief are we talking about adding? My LP style seems to have around .015 relief maybe a little more now that it has settled but the PRS style had a whopping .2 or something close to that to get it to play at one point, I believe I got it lower now but its still not in the reasonable range of relief from what I've read. I guess relief is a lot about feel, but that number seems way higher than it should be.
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Post by mudskipper on Dec 20, 2006 16:35:08 GMT -7
well, it's just a trait of scarf joint construction and with all things being equal, it's never a problem. but when you end up with a neck that keeps moving or just screwy to start with, you may have problems. i've got 2 necks with scarf joints (mahogany, maple) and i haven't had a problem with them. they are even made by Warmoth necks. one is from the mid 80's and another about 4~5 years old. i've had my share of Ibanez and i think they are much worse. but that's just me. i don't know what to tell you about the relief. i usually set my guitars up with almost no relief and get the height from the bridge. i haven't read the book you talk about but i see 3 approaches to fix that heat, plane fretboard, level frets or a combination of the 3. a quick and dirty approach would be to level those frets but that's just a bandaid solution, you know.
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Post by The Fifth Column on Dec 20, 2006 17:39:07 GMT -7
yeah, eventually I'll have to take this in for work. I was actually thinking a complete refret might help, but like I said I can't really afford that right now. I figure some of the options you've mentioned aren't going to small jobs either and you can't really plane the fretboard because its scalloped, so if they plan it down they'll have to redo all the scalloping by hand. When I originally had it looked at I was told that it might even be cheaper to just replace the neck than to have all the problems worked out.
I guess I'll just have to leave that guitar in its case for the time being until I can get it fixed properly. Maybe when the time comes I'll look into USACG or some of the other builders.
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Post by skydog958 on Dec 20, 2006 17:51:54 GMT -7
Ugh I've got 2 guitars that need refrets and the guy who does it charges an arm and a leg...but he's supposed to do amazing work.
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Post by The Fifth Column on Dec 21, 2006 11:45:21 GMT -7
I'm pretty sure all of mine need fretwork but hopefully not refrets. One I only play as a slide guitar so those frets should be fine. If I ever decide to play that guitar normally they'll need replacing though. They must be the lowest and narrowest frets I've ever seen, and they tarnish like crazy. Must be some lower grade of fret wire or something.
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Post by jwr on Dec 21, 2006 14:44:30 GMT -7
I love my Warmoth guitars. I'm gonna hopefully build 2 more this summer. For bolt on neck style guitars they are great. Necks are all doing fine and both of mine are unfinished, although my next 2 are going to get a satin finish just to be on the safe side.
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Post by The Fifth Column on Dec 21, 2006 22:58:38 GMT -7
I like my LP style a lot. Looks awesome and sounds great with massive sustain (partially due to the pickups and partially because its chambered). It definite works for me and will work for me probably until I can afford a real Les Paul.
Glad you haven't had any neck problems jwr, especially with them unfinished. I'd build more if I have the funds probably for some of my weirder interests like a baritone or some combination of hardware that they don't make.
I probably would be more confident in Warmoth if I didn't have some much trouble with my PRS style one.
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Post by skydog958 on Dec 22, 2006 19:19:39 GMT -7
I was looking into USACG for a while but never committed because the guy who does the finishing for them only does poly, no nitro. Bummer. But the virtual guitar maker is really fun to play around with! If I get a color scheme for a guitar in my head I go right to the VG and try it out.
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Post by The Fifth Column on Dec 22, 2006 21:57:03 GMT -7
I've messed with that thing too on their site...It is kind of fun, Gibson has something similar too that I've seen and is fun to mess with if you like Les Pauls like I do.
That actually made me think of a slightly different question but I'll ask it anyway. I hear a lot about the preference for nitro finishes and I do kind of like the fact that they will wear because I like my things to look like they're been used. What is the difference in sound though and how noticeable is it on first listen?
I've heard things about the nitro letting the wood breathe and resonate better? My warmoth LP has poly I believe and is hollow and resonates almost like a hollowbody so I'm curious as to how big a difference we're talking about. I don't own any nitro finished guitars as of now.
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Post by skydog958 on Dec 23, 2006 10:27:43 GMT -7
There's much debate. The only thing that is truly certain is that a thick poly finish will dampen the tonal qualities of the body. The neck is also another point and some say it makes a difference; others just say it's the body that is the big deal.
The nitro vs. poly issue boils down to this: nitro is a natural carbon compound that binds with the wood and therefore resonates on similar frequencies. As nitro cures it sinks into the wood. Poly is a plastic so it just covers the wood, but it's more durable and much easier and cheaper to use than nitro.
I know Warmoth doesn't do nitro anymore. They don't think it's worth it, which may be opinion or just cost cutting.
Either way, you don't want a thick finish. I'm not sure if you'll be able to tell unless you take the same guitar, cables, amp, etc. and record it with a poly and a nitro finish. It's really personal preference. I personally prefer nitro.
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Post by mudskipper on Dec 23, 2006 11:28:57 GMT -7
from a practical point of view, if applied thinly, poly type paint works pretty well. PRS has been very successful with that kind of finish. it's kinda funny when you think about those "lawsuit era" Japanese guitars since the majority of them have that super thick poly(ester) finish. the build quality may be decent but the finish certainly isn't nothing to write home about.
the modern day nitro has a lot more plasticizer (i think that's what's called) in it to prevent it from checking and cracking, so you can never get that hard finish manufacturers got in the 50's and 60's. if you notice, Gibsons from the early 80's with nitro finish had/has that gummy feel to the finish and the finish stays pretty soft. you most definitely don't want that.
i really don't think the type of finish matters all that much as long as there isn't a lot of on the guitar.
i also would like to clarify a bit about Warmoth. i think it's still possible to get decent neck from them. i've only used/bought about 5~6 Warmoth necks and have seen only maybe 20 more since the 80's. and by grand scheme of things, it's not that many. i'm sure some of you see that many of them in during the course of one week. but i feel that i've run into crappy necks from them more often in recent years.
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Post by The Fifth Column on Dec 23, 2006 11:59:34 GMT -7
Thanks for the info everyone
I think I'd like nitro finished guitars more if I owned one but not so much for sounds (at least not now because I can't tell the difference having not played one) but I kind of like that worn in look. Sound wise it probably has a lot to do with the guitar too, I mean some guitars just sound like magic and others just sound horrible no matter what their finish is. There's so much that makes a guitar its probably a little bit of everything and some luck to find that perfect fit.
As for Warmoth, it might just be that we've seen some bad ones or there has been a recent slip in quality. I had a hard time deciding on where I wanted to go when I wanted to build/assemble a guitar, but Warmoth seemed to have the most options so I went with them.
I spoke briefly with one of the guys at Schroeder Guitar Repair here in Chicago about warmoth and he said he's seen both good and bad ones from them, but it tends to be birdeye maple ones he's seen that have warped or twisted. Kind of odd because my PRS style with the neck problems is a maple neck (not birdseye though).
If I was going to build another one I'd probably go with warmoth or at least consider them but my next guitar will probably be a production brand, not for quality, but just because my tastes in guitars has settled down since I've had these two. Plus why wait 12 weeks when I can go pick one out directly.
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Post by jwr on Dec 23, 2006 12:23:24 GMT -7
The 2 I'm doing this summer are going to be nitro. The guy that works on all my guitars said if I wanted a "vintage" Strat it had to be nitro, so's he's doing the paint job and the finish work on the bodies. I've played a couple strats that were nitro and they just *ring*, ya know. They immediately have a certain magic about them that you can't quite put your finger on, and that was before I even plugged them in. I had that kind of experience with a Bill Nash strat and it changed the way I'm gonna build my next 2 strats. I'm sure some people will argue that there's no difference, but ya gotta go with what you think is going to work for you. Jason
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Post by Hohn on Dec 25, 2006 23:51:16 GMT -7
.... i really don't think the type of finish matters all that much as long as there isn't a lot of on the guitar. That's my opinion. The thinness and evenness of finish (and quality of prep and labor) matter a LOT more imo than the actual chemical that's applied. Personally, I'm going to try a Tru Oil finish on my first project. Easy to use, and perfect as long as you like the color of gunstocks. I do. jh
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Post by mward on Dec 26, 2006 7:48:00 GMT -7
I find it interesting that people obsess over what their guitar is covered in but care little about what their cabinets are covered with. If having a nitro finish on a solidbody guitar makes such a huge difference, why do we cover our cabinets in tolex? That's like wrapping your sound in rubber or something. Play through a plain pine cabinet and then through something that's got tolex on it and you'll be amazed at the difference. I think your cabinet has a far greater effect on sound than the finish on your guitar. But I'm crazy like that. We're playing through cabinets made from plywood yet we wouldn't use a plywood acoustic to hit someone with they supposedly are so poor. I've got a nitro finished guitar and a poly finished guitar and I can't tell a difference. I think it's placebo effect or something.
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Post by billyguitar on Dec 26, 2006 8:38:36 GMT -7
Ideally cabinets should be acoustically dead just like stereo cabs but for guitar we want our cabs to be an instrument too. I would imagine lacquered tweed would allow the wood to resonate a bit more than heavy tolex applied with thick adhesive. Nitro finishes are fine but your guitars won't be minty long. It is much softer. I already have some dings and light scratches in my new Lentz that I wouldn't have if it had one of those hard poly finishes. I don't mind though, it's just getting more personalized! My guitars do acquire more little marks maybe than some other guys. It seems all I've got to do is use one around the house for two weeks and there they are, dings etc.. I used my Tom Anderson for 2 years solid with hardly a mark on it. It has a thin but very hard finish.
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Post by The Fifth Column on Dec 26, 2006 17:34:44 GMT -7
Those are really interesting points. I'd be interested in playing an uncovered cab. to hear the difference.
I kind of agree with mward on nitro finishes. I've never played a nitro guitar (as I said previously) but I bet its more about the guitar than the finish. Some guitars are just great sounding. Whether a nitro finish might make the difference between a great guitar and a fantastic guitar... I don't know.
Then again there are probably some great players with great tone who play "cheap" guitars. Probably has to do more with technique and style that finishes.
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Post by mudskipper on Dec 26, 2006 19:22:40 GMT -7
I find it interesting that people obsess over what their guitar is covered in but care little about what their cabinets are covered with.... well, since you mentioned, i've always found those pine cabs without tolex (just some finish on them) sound brighter and livelier than tolexed cabs. i can't really tell the difference between the material once they are covered, though, you know like pine vs baltic birch ply.... i usually don't obsess so much about material and finish, though. i think it's more important to judge gear by their overall functionality and sound.
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Post by The Fifth Column on Dec 26, 2006 22:31:26 GMT -7
Agreed.
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