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Post by dave19er on Oct 15, 2006 9:35:08 GMT -7
I'm looking at ordering a Grosh Retro Classic, and am trying to decide which bridge to get on it. I know the standard is his modified 1088 bridge, but I've heard that those don't sound too "strat-y." Would it be better to go with the "vintage flatmount" bridge? Decisions, decisions! (I've always wanted to order a guitar to my own specs, but had no idea it would be this tough! I think I'm driving my wife nuts with trying to decide on what I want - Fralin Blues Specials or Vintage Hots? 1 5/8 nut or 1 11/16? It was hard enough deciding to go the Grosh route, rather than getting a Custom Shop Time Machine '60 Strat.).
Anyway, any and all opinions on this matter are much appreciated! Thanks!
dave19er
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Post by tele1962 on Oct 15, 2006 14:02:06 GMT -7
Dave, for an old guitar tech and player this one's not so tough. The Grosh with added air, cruise and tilt is ok...
The 1960 Custom Shop Time Machine is stellar! Have you put money down yet? If not think again. My dollars would go to the 60 CS! And I'd play it with the PU's they have in them. You want "Strat-y"?? You're home on this one, son!
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Post by dave19er on Oct 15, 2006 14:54:09 GMT -7
Nope - no money down yet. I loved the Custom Shop Strat when I played it. A little history: the reason I'm looking is because my wife got me a Custom Shop '63 Tele, and it just blew me away with how good it played and sounded. I've never liked how my American Standard Strat sounded - just sterile, and I've swapped pickups out and done other stuff. Well, I loved that Tele so much, I figured I was just a Tele guy, and didn't like how strats sounded. Then I played one of the custom shop strats, and it was like night and day compared to my american standard. So I figured I'd better get a Strat that actually sounded good. I played some others (to include Tylers, Andersons), but none really grabbed me until I played the Grosh. I really loved how it played and sounded. I spend an hour or two swapping back and forth between the two guitars, and really liked both. The Grosh had a certain something though, that I really liked. Can't describe it. I contacted Grosh with some questions, and they were EXTREMELY cool - just super nice people, invited me to bring my family to tour their shop (the shop isn't too far from us, here in Colorado). This was in major contrast to dealing with Fender - I love their guitars, but have had nothing but heartaches in dealing with their customer service. I had to get a replacement neck for my Am Std Strat, and it was a multi-month ordeal (loooong story). Anyway, I guess it boils down to - I'd take either a Grosh or a Strat, since I was so impressed with both, but some of the intangibles made me lean towards the Grosh. Plus, there's a part of me that says that 1) it's cool buying from a local builder and 2) Fender certainly doesn't need my business as much as a small company would. As I've said, this whole process has involved a lot of difficult choices (and I know my wife is sick of it all - she'll probably be annoyed, since now I'm second guessing the Grosh thing, and I'll have to ask her what she thinks ). Thanks! dave19er
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Post by tele1962 on Oct 16, 2006 8:39:48 GMT -7
You're an honorable man. Supporting local and deferring to your wife's wisdom are both signs of that. The advanages to Custom Shop are that the customer service issues are more easily dealt with when you do buy CS. Try getting good service on clothing by buying a suit "off the rack"...it doesn't go well! Speak of suits, I'm sure there are many tailors out there who make wonderful Armani knock offs. My problem is that once I'm into Armani type $$, I want an Armani! If I buy a boutique guitar , I want it to be unique, and the best guitar that the maker knows how to make...not HIS version of someone' elses work. I would never have bought a Dr Z amp if Mike had made them to be a knock off of AC-30's or Fender amps or whatever. I have old Fender amps, and they're wonderful! What I wanted was the truly unique sound and look that Dr Z gave me. If you want a Fender looking, sounding, and warranted guitar, go to Fender. They own the rights. Don Grosh owns the rights to Grosh guitars, not the Stratocaster nameplate. What does Grosh mean by "Retro Classic" ? Classic what?
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Post by dave19er on Oct 16, 2006 18:30:51 GMT -7
Dang it! You make some extremely good points - you've really got me thinking. Since it'll probably be another month or so until I can order the guitar (whichever I decide to go with), I still have a bit of time to decide. I've really be looking at Fat Sound's One Off Custom Shop Strats - I'm trying to find out how much extra it'd be to get a '60 in Lake Placid Blue.
Since I've never had to deal with the Custom Shop for my Tele, I really had no benchmark for how they are to deal with, compared to how Fender is for their standard guitars. Is the customer service really that much better?
Thanks!
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Post by tele1962 on Oct 16, 2006 19:26:54 GMT -7
Dave, I applaud your patience in choosing a guitar. Please understand I have nothing but the highest regards for Don Grosh, Bill Crook, Tom Anderson and all the wonderful and gifted people making guitars today. I own one of Tom's myself! Here's my take on Fender. There was a time in history when they didn't care to make very good guitars anymore. It became the era of darkness, and it took boutique makers like Don, Bill and Tom to wake the company up! The production guitars that Fender makes still upset me. They're utility grade, highly marketed , third world built cheapos. Except for the fact that with some of them, they ask real money for them ( still!!!) So it goes hand in hand that customer service slides right in the toilet along with the whole thing. The men and ladies of Fender Custom Shop are not this bunch. This is where the people who care to make the world's finest Fender instruments work! And just like Don Grosh, they have NAMES!! They don't just hand make you a Stratocaster. It 's a REAL Stratocaster. A Fender stratocaster with real Fender pickups, a Fender neck, a Fender Custom Shop warranty, and signed with pride by a real person. John English, Yuri Shiskyn, Greg Fessler and others I won't name are real people just like Tom Anderson. Here's their disadvantage : Fender has screwed up the market so badly with a flood of second and third rate instruments in the past, that these folks are not only fighting a bad rep now, but also good boutiquers who have jumped in to fill voids. Here's their advantage: They've been given the freedom to hand build guitars like Leo Fender started out doing! Isn't that cool? Real Strats and Teles...real Precisions and Jazz basses, handmade and signed by master builders! And get this: They have the exact blueprints to play with that Leo, George, and all the old Fender gang created so many years ago. I can't afford to buy another 1958 Strat. Mine was expensive to buy years ago, but today I'd have to pay 40G to get one even close to as nice. I'm not joking. Maybe I'm even low in that number. The guys here are better at that stuff than I am, but here';s the point. It's the real deal. Tom Anderson guitars never appreciate. A Don Grosh that sells for 2G today sells for 1800 tomorrow. And so on.... But my 1958 Sunburst Stratocaster keeps going up. WAY the hell up. And so does the 1962 Strat, and the 1955 telecaster and the 1962 telecaster. Because it's a Fender, it's hard to find, and it sounds like everything Fender your mind can dream up! I WOULD buy a Custom Shop guitar from John or Yuri or Greg or anyone who's a master builder there! And I'd talk to them by phone before they shipped it, and i'd get personal about it, and I'd come to understand their passion is just as great as Leo Fender's ever was! And I'd have a Fender guitar, built by Fender builders with Fender blueprints with a Fender sound, a Fender warranty, and last but NEVER least...a licensed issue of a Stratocaster. It comes with the Fender Stratocaster name, yes...but also the rights to that name. And that's what Custom Shop has brought back to us with pride
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Post by bks on Oct 17, 2006 13:29:09 GMT -7
I know you guys are having a nice conversation here, so I hope you don't mind if I chime in...
Just to throw another wrinkle in here...although the points in favor of the Custom Shop route are all well taken, I'm of a slightly different mind: for $2K, you gotta get the guitar that's exactly what you want. When I look at the Custom Shop Strats, sure, they're beautiful and well made, but they don't make "my" Strat. I want the neck of a '69, but a little thicker, and the bridge and pickups of a '63, and the finish of a '60, but I don't want a rosewood fingerboard, and...so on. If Grosh can make "your" Strat, that's the way to go. You're going to play this thing, right? Get the one that's going to feel good in your hands and sound good through your amp.
Sure, if you're going to get Grosh to build you a duplicate of the '60 Custom Shop, well, the Custom Shop is probably the better way to go, but if the '60 isn't exactly the guitar you want, why spend all that money on it?
Meanwhile, I don't know if you were asking, but I'd go with a Blues Special in the bridge and Vintage Hot neck and middle, if they'll let you. I might even consider the Real '54s in the neck and middle, if that's an option...
My .02...
Brian
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Post by dave19er on Oct 17, 2006 19:51:34 GMT -7
no problem chiming in, BKS! I really appreciate any and all input as this is a tough decision for me. See, my problem is that I really like the '60 Custom Shop Strats, but since I can only really afford the teambuilt ones, as nice as they are (and I do know that they're nice, since I have a teambuilt '63 Tele), it really is "off the rack." As soon as I start making any changes to the baseline, the price starts going up. And while I've liked most that I've played, I have played a couple that weren't all that hot (heavy, didn't sound all that good). I've heard nothing but good things about Grosh instruments, and have really liked all the ones I've played. I really want something that gives me that "Strat" sound, and both the Grosh and the CS Strat do that. But there are a few things that I'd change on strats, if I could, and ordering the Grosh would let me do that, while keeping the sound. At least, that was kind of my thinking on it. But it's been a tough call for me - I've always been a big Fender fan (three Jazz Basses, a Strat, a Tele, and a Coronado), so going outside the fold is kind of like being a Ford guy who's thinking about buying a BMW.
BTW, BKS, thanks for the input on the pickups, too. I haven't asked, but that's just 'cause I haven't gotten around to it yet. Does mixing the PUs cause any imbalance in the sound (like, would the bridge PU be much louder than the other, because it's hotter?)? Do the Real '54s sound "better" (I know it's totally subjective) than the Vintage Hots? I haven't been super impressed with some of the overwound pickups I've tried (loved the Fralins, but really have not liked the Texas Specials).
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Post by bks on Oct 18, 2006 11:51:05 GMT -7
Dave, Sounds like, especially since you're taking your time here, you should try to play as many of the team-built Strats as you can. You might find one that's right for you. I played a '69 team-built Strat that I almost pulled the trigger on, and would have, but I'm in the anti-relic camp, and since it was selling for about what I could get one for new, I decided to go the "build your own" route (still waiting on the body and the neck). In terms of pickups, I have a Vintage Hot neck/Blues Special bridge setup in my Tele and the disparity in output isn't noticeable to my ears, and, well, isn't that why there's a volume knob? The difference between the '54 and the BS might be too much, though, you're right. And I only know the '54s by reputation; I went with the Callaham assembly with their "custom wound" Fralins, which seem to be closer to the Vintage Hot setup. Second guessing abounds, though. Brian
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Post by tele1962 on Oct 18, 2006 19:33:44 GMT -7
"If Grosh can make "your" Strat, that's the way to go." If only he could. Guys, he makes GREAT guitars. But two points go missing here with regularity. The Stratocaster nameplate is a registered trademark. You cannot build a Chevrolet no matter how well you can put car parts together, better or worse. OK, yes, you can build a "better" Chevrolet. But you can't even legally call it a Chevrolet. Not without a licensing agreement from GM. So Mr Grosh cannot build you "your" Strat or anybody elses. Your lawyer can explain it better than I can. Secondly, none of us here are all that pleased with Fender as a whole. BUT....that 1960 Time Machine is made like the old ones to a very, very great degree. And therein lies the magic. We want to hold and hear the sound that launched a thousand careers. Leo never custom built my 1958 Stratocaster. But I don't want Grosh to build me a '58. I have one. And it's a wonderful old girl that just delivers in spades what guys are scuttling around here looking for! Same with the old Teles and the 1962 Strat. Tom Anderson can built me "MY" '62, and I could throw this old bird away. Why not? I'm convinced he could build a better one, right? Wrong. He can build me a nicer looking and playing version of a 1962 Fender Stratocaster, but he will never build a Fender Stratocaster. Not practically, not legally. So I'm stuck with these old pieces. And I don't care. They're "my" guitars!
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Post by quinto on Oct 20, 2006 22:29:32 GMT -7
Dave, for an old guitar tech and player this one's not so tough. The Grosh with added air, cruise and tilt is ok... The 1960 Custom Shop Time Machine is stellar! Have you put money down yet? If not think again. My dollars would go to the 60 CS! And I'd play it with the PU's they have in them. You want "Strat-y"?? You're home on this one, son! I spent some time with a '60 Custom shop relic at a guitar center after reading this. I have kind of checked them out before, but I think I wasin't really paying attention. Well, It was inspiring. The pickups in it were "the" strat sound for sure. It was a relic so it looked well loved. It sounded so good it was inspiring to play. I think I'm going to start saving for one. It really was that good.
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Post by tele1962 on Oct 20, 2006 22:45:29 GMT -7
That's EXACTLY what I hear and feel with this guitar, and like I say, I hold the bar pretty high because of the old girls I have. Also, I'm impressed that your ears found that sound to be so deadly accurate to Fender voicing. Too many guys are so busy changing PU's that they blow right past this small nuance.
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Post by quinto on Oct 21, 2006 0:41:58 GMT -7
The second I started playing it you just new that's what it should sound like. Now don't get me wrong, I love my Fralins too. Those fender pickups are scary good. I played it through a blues deville and it made that amp sound better than I have ever heard one sound. The dirty channel even sounded good. The guitar itself just so playable. I wish Fender sold those pickups separately.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2006 0:51:05 GMT -7
I love my Fender '69 custom shop strat, though I am obviously not paying attention to the nuances because there is also a Suhr in my future. Also I have Lollar Blackface Strat pickups in my guitar. I like the '69 CS pickups, but the Lollars get me closer to the sound of this killer '62 strat I played at a local store than the fender pickups ever did. Even closer than the ones in Custom Shop 1960 NOS strat I owned for a while. Just my experience, YMMV.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2006 0:57:29 GMT -7
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Post by tele1962 on Oct 21, 2006 10:20:03 GMT -7
The one thing I respect about Rudy Pensa and John Suhr is that they dont 'even pretend to emulate Fender most of the time. Mark Knopfler for so many years was highly reliant on a Pensa with EMG's. I'm not a fan of EMG's, but for Mark's style, where he wants that hyper gain tone he's so good at...wow!! I can't argue with those results.
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Post by quinto on Oct 21, 2006 15:09:44 GMT -7
I love my Fender '69 custom shop strat, though I am obviously not paying attention to the nuances because there is also a Suhr in my future. Also I have Lollar Blackface Strat pickups in my guitar. I like the '69 CS pickups, but the Lollars get me closer to the sound of this killer '62 strat I played at a local store than the fender pickups ever did. Even closer than the ones in Custom Shop 1960 NOS strat I owned for a while. Just my experience, YMMV. I really want to try the Lollars, I would hate to buy them and not like them. I really need to get those SCN's out of my blue Strat.
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Post by tele1962 on Oct 21, 2006 23:16:28 GMT -7
Guys, I want to apologize for any recommendations I've made, especially on PU's. I should just do what I used to do, and install whatever I'm brought. I'm doing less installing these days, and so I'm listening more. This is not helping me here. It makes me sound condescending sometimes, and that's not who I am. Please accept my apologies.
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Post by dave19er on Oct 22, 2006 20:19:19 GMT -7
Guys, I want to apologize for any recommendations I've made, especially on PU's. I should just do what I used to do, and install whatever I'm brought. I'm doing less installing these days, and so I'm listening more. This is not helping me here. It makes me sound condescending sometimes, and that's not who I am. Please accept my apologies. Hey - no need to apologize! This has been an extremely useful thread for me, and I've gotten much more out of it than my original question that started this thread. Your input and thoughts, and the ensuing discussion, really helped me re-examine what it was I was looking for in a new guitar (and it pleases me, too, that others have been as impressed with the '60 as I have been). Not that I would have regretted getting a Grosh, but I'm really psyched about getting a '60 Strat now.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2006 20:28:01 GMT -7
Yeah Tele1962, its all good.
Dave19er, I think you can't go wrong with either make, though personally I like the more traditional strat body shape. You might have to hunt a little more through all the Team built stuff but you will find a great one. All the custom shop strats play great but they do vary in terms of sound from one another. I love my '69 CS Strat. I knew the moment I picked it up that it was the one.
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Post by taswegian on Oct 23, 2006 0:06:50 GMT -7
I'll throw some fuel on the fire here and say ALWAYS go for the instrument that is doing it for you no matter what it is. If it's a cheap piece of crap but you love it, get it. If the Grosh has that " certain something" then you might find yourself wanting that if you go with something else. If you love a 60 Strat then grab that but don't be lured by names and reputations, just look at each individual instrument for what it is. Personally, I like to support the little guys now as the bigger companies have had their go and their legend is intact, but I wouldn't pick a grosh or anderson over a Fender unless I actually liked the intrument better and vice-versa. I also like the fact that my Grosh Set Neck is Dons' own design and about as stellar as any guitar you will ever play and it stays in tune! I'll cop it here but I think CS Fenders are just as much knock offs as anyone else trying to replicate great vintage strats. They simply weren't built 40-50 years ago, so I don't really buy the whole "only a fender is a fender" thing...Only a vintage Fender is a vintage Fender. CS Fender is still a pretend vintage Fender, as much as anyone else trying to replicate something half a century before. Look out I'm in trouble now!!!! My point is, buy whatever guitar you buy on it's merits not it's reputation and that goes for all the new boutique brands as well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2006 0:31:28 GMT -7
Hi Tas, I hope I did not come off as hating the Grosh. I really like his guitars especially his set-neck models. Again if I played one and it killed I would definitely buy it. Aesthetically I think I like the look of the more traditional fender shape than the shape Grosh uses for the strat style guitars but that wouldn't deter me from owning a Grosh. If only I had more chances to try some of these fine instruments. That's what I get for living in the Great White North.
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Post by taswegian on Oct 23, 2006 2:13:24 GMT -7
No no, I wasn't responding to anyone in particular, I just think sometimes we all get carried away with a brand name be it effects, guitars, amps whatever and it clouds our judgement. How many rock players play a Marshall because "you have to play a Marshall to play rock" etc etc. Reminds me of when I was playing basketball. All the kids had the latest hype shoe and it was SOOOO Important to have. We lived in a small town in So Dak, and I couldn't get to the city to buy a decent pair of shoes so I bought some cheap Pro Keds to get me through till I could get some "real" shoes. After I had played about a month I realized the shoes were great and decided just to keep playing in them. I used to get talked down by all my opponents and was the butt of all the other teams jokes. But I could dunk and most in their Air Jordon's couldn't. I told them it was all in my shoes!!! ;D As a state champion 100M runner I was also the fastest on the court, again, I told them they needed some decent shoes to keep up. The Pro Keds lasted four seasons, longer than any shoe I ever owned or played in, and cost about a fifth of the "real" shoes.
What were we talking about? ;D
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Post by tele1962 on Oct 23, 2006 14:21:26 GMT -7
Dave...don't go by me. There's a lot of informed and experienced folks here who can help you. I'm likely a poor source! I was just givng my opinion, and maybe it sounded like a strong opinion. I was reprimanded soundly for it, and with good reason. I accept it with dignity! Thanks for listening
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Post by mudskipper on Oct 24, 2006 6:24:45 GMT -7
.... but none really grabbed me until I played the Grosh. I really loved how it played and sounded. I spend an hour or two swapping back and forth between the two guitars, and really liked both. The Grosh had a certain something though, that I really liked. Can't describe it. ..... so why didn't you buy the one you loved? or did i miss something in the thread?
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Post by dave19er on Oct 24, 2006 18:19:00 GMT -7
.... but none really grabbed me until I played the Grosh. I really loved how it played and sounded. I spend an hour or two swapping back and forth between the two guitars, and really liked both. The Grosh had a certain something though, that I really liked. Can't describe it. ..... so why didn't you buy the one you loved? or did i miss something in the thread? Well, I loved how both played, but didn't fall in love either of the guitars - Three reasons: 1) Because the '60 Strat was heavier than I like (and not in a color that I care for), 2) the neck on the Grosh was WAAAY too big for me and was satin finish (I hate satin finish necks), and 3) (and most importantly) I didn't have the money at the time.
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Post by mudskipper on Oct 24, 2006 19:12:48 GMT -7
Well, I loved how both played, but didn't fall in love either of the guitars - Three reasons: 1) Because the '60 Strat was heavier than I like (and not in a color that I care for), 2) the neck on the Grosh was WAAAY too big for me and was satin finish (I hate satin finish necks), and 3) (and most importantly) I didn't have the money at the time. oh, i guess i mis-read your post. it sounded like you fell in love with the Grosh. swapping out the neck of the Grosh (factory job) or shaving it out of the question? i'm always squirmish about ordering guitars sight-unseen. i know the market and buying-trend are changing but i like to play the gear and fall in love with what i take home at any price.
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