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Post by GuitarZ on Apr 22, 2006 8:00:26 GMT -7
I'm a longtime Les Paul P90 player that started playing an American Deluxe Strat with noiseless PUs a few years ago.
Here is question #1. With my Les Paul, the tone of the guitar is consistent no matter where the guitar's volume controls are set. With the Strat, as soon as I dial back from 10, I go from bright to muddy. I think this is somewhat typical for Strats and I've read about the compensating caps and how folks work the volume control for extra brightness on solos. Is this really normal for Strats and/or are the Fender Noiseless pickups a bit more pronounced with this characteristic?
Question #2 is also about the Noiseless Pickups. How do longtime Strat players view them? I've read that they're supposed to be similar to the 50's pickups with a bell-like tone and a little less signal. True? You can tell that Fender had to work a little harder for these since they dropped in a 1 Meg volume control pot.
I need the noiseless PUs due to a 60 Hz airborne gremlin in my house. I use a FET preamp, like the Alembic Stratoblaster, to get around the volume bright/muddy tone problems. I appreciate any light that can be shed to this old Lester now Strat/Lester player.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Apr 22, 2006 8:34:18 GMT -7
I'm a longtime Les Paul P90 player that started playing an American Deluxe Strat with noiseless PUs a few years ago. Here is question #1. With my Les Paul, the tone of the guitar is consistent no matter where the guitar's volume controls are set. With the Strat, as soon as I dial back from 10, I go from bright to muddy. I think this is somewhat typical for Strats and I've read about the compensating caps and how folks work the volume control for extra brightness on solos. Is this really normal for Strats and/or are the Fender Noiseless pickups a bit more pronounced with this characteristic? Question #2 is also about the Noiseless Pickups. How do longtime Strat players view them? I've read that they're supposed to be similar to the 50's pickups with a bell-like tone and a little less signal. True? You can tell that Fender had to work a little harder for these since they dropped in a 1 Meg volume control pot. I need the noiseless PUs due to a 60 Hz airborne gremlin in my house. I use a FET preamp, like the Alembic Stratoblaster, to get around the volume bright/muddy tone problems. I appreciate any light that can be shed to this old Lester now Strat/Lester player. I think the answers you get are going to demonstrate one fundamental concept that is inescapable, and that is this: "Opinions vary." I use standard single coils in my strat and wouldn't go near the noiseless pups because I don't believe I can get the tone I'm after by going there. But you're right, a standard Fender wiring scheme with standard Fender pups will give you a pretty significant rolloff of highs as you work the volume control. On my guitar then, I have the "volume kit" as defined by the schematic and wiring diagram on Lindy Fraliin's excellent web site. His volume kit consists of a resistor (220K) from hot to wiper - this changes the pot's taper so that you have better resolution, i.e., turning down to 5 yields about half volume instead of half appearing at around 7 or 8 on the knob. Across that resistor, he puts a capacitor (values are debated, but a good starting value is the one on his web site). The capacitor lets the top end bleed through as you roll the volume down, thus your highs are not attenuated as you work the volume control. I believe Noiseless pups have slightly less highs to start out, and they would be at a slightly different frequency, so you may need to experiment with the cap value to get exactly what you're after. By the way, I put a volume kit on my HB equipped guitars too - you may not notice the top end dropoff on your Les Paul, but it's there. It may be that you actually prefer it that way, and don't even realize it. You can spend a ton of time fiddling with this one thing - fortunately I found the values I like a long time ago and don't need any more fiddle time here...
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Post by GuitarZ on Apr 22, 2006 8:54:46 GMT -7
Thanks. This is good info. I'm not crazy. At least not too much.
I'm actually afraid to try any other Strats or pickups. I don't want to fall in love with anything else because of my hum problem. I tried Dimarzio humbucking Virtual P90s on my Les Paul and while they pretty much captured the P90 sound and were quiet, they just didn't have the same life that my stock '68 P90s provided. They just didn't feel right even after a year. So, I pretty much imagine long time Strat players would probably feel the same way about the noiseless pickups. They kind of get it, but not 100%.
By the way, you've got a great tone and feel. I was bouncing around your web site this morning by coincidence.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Apr 22, 2006 9:13:01 GMT -7
Thanks. This is good info. I'm not crazy. At least not too much. I'm actually afraid to try any other Strats or pickups. I don't want to fall in love with anything else because of my hum problem. I tried Dimarzio humbucking Virtual P90s on my Les Paul and while they pretty much captured the P90 sound and were quiet, they just didn't have the same life that my stock '68 P90s provided. They just didn't feel right even after a year. So, I pretty much imagine long time Strat players would probably feel the same way about the noiseless pickups. They kind of get it, but not 100%. By the way, you've got a great tone and feel. I was bouncing around your web site this morning by coincidence. Thanks! All of that was pre-Z days with the THD Flexi-50 and my Grosh Bent Top Custom Strat with Fralin Blues Specials in the neck and middle, and a DiMarzio custom wound in the bridge. For the blues band, that setup works fantastic. For my covers band, it's going to be the Grosh Retro Classic VT (Tele) and my new Stingray. Yeah baby!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2006 11:07:44 GMT -7
Hi GuitarZ, you might want to look at Suhr's new Silent Single coil system if you want the authentic sound of a single coil with out the noise. I love my Lollars to death but this system definitely is calling to me. You would have to buy three of his V60lp single coils and not have the Middle Reverse Wound. If you have hum canceling in the 2nd and 4th positions it won't work. Check it :)out. www.suhrguitars.com/BPSSC_Flyer.pdfThe first clip with Scott Henderson has him showing off the system. Here is the link. www.prosoundcommunications.com/english/video/scott_henderson2/index.html
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Post by GuitarZ on Apr 22, 2006 15:09:48 GMT -7
I'm an electrical engineer so I sometimes fall into that "I know how things work" syndrome. So, I see a backplate and I figure that it must just be some shielding in there and that it really couldn't do much for hum. I did the full shielding job on my Les Paul, re-wired it with a good grade of shielded mic cable, did the star ground, crossed my fingers, and ... ended up with the same amount of hum. At least I fixed a little short in the old wiring that was a sporadic problem.
The Scott Hendeson video is pretty convincing. Wow! That is pretty cool.
If he made the system for a Les Paul, I would give it a shot. If you try it on your Strat, get a post going. It sounds intriguing.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Apr 22, 2006 15:55:42 GMT -7
I'm an electrical engineer so I sometimes fall into that "I know how things work" syndrome. So, I see a backplate and I figure that it must just be some shielding in there and that it really couldn't do much for hum. I did the full shielding job on my Les Paul, re-wired it with a good grade of shielded mic cable, did the star ground, crossed my fingers, and ... ended up with the same amount of hum. At least I fixed a little short in the old wiring that was a sporadic problem. The Scott Hendeson video is pretty convincing. Wow! That is pretty cool. If he made the system for a Les Paul, I would give it a shot. If you try it on your Strat, get a post going. It sounds intriguing. Ah, well then you know what an antenna is and how it works. And you also know that you have two or three of them on your guitar. How do you prevent an antenna from receiving a signal? Yeah, it's a challenge! If you know the frequency, you can tune it. But what if that frequency is right in the audio band (60Hz)? Another challenge! I wouldn't mind just putting a very narrow band notch at 60Hz if it wasn't for all those nasty harmonics all the way up the spectrum. Killing 60Hz doesn't do anything about those, does it? I'm sure you see that this is a problem that has been a challenge since the beginning with guitars. If you're in a room with a lot of EMI, the best bet is hum-bucking wiring. That's what instigated that after all. But fortunately MOST places I play do not have EMI to contend with - only the occasional ancient old joint with original wiring and lighting. Then I am forced to use the 2 and 4 positions on my Strat all night to cancel the hum. The rest of the time I'm ok with standard measures....
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Post by garyh on Apr 22, 2006 20:37:34 GMT -7
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Post by tele1962 on Apr 26, 2006 22:15:18 GMT -7
For question #1 - A true Stratocaster ( Fender, Fender PU's) has inherent characteristics that are part of the guitar. What makes it weak makes it strong. What makes it quirky , makes it right. What makes it less than perfect is perfect. A Les Paul has the same dependable idiosyncratic tendancies in other directions. We learn to make deals with the devils in these guitars and work them for what they are! There are hundreds of romantic notions about " swapping this, and trading that, putting a larger 4 stroke outboard Johnson on a Les paul Junior, or modding a Strat so that it sounds like a Gretch Country Gentleman, or making a Rickenbacker sound like freight train on steroids. If it sounds like I'm a bit off topic, don't get too lost! For the most part, a Fender is a very simple piece of wood. Trying to get it to overacheive is frustrating a lot of times, and may actually take away from the rewards a Fender gives you. Trying to change your wife into the girl next door is sometimes not the better part of wisdom! Let a Gibson be a Gibson, a Gretch a Gretch, and a Strat a Strat. Love them for who they are and you'll live happier! With regard to noiseless PU's, you give up some tonal qualities with them as well. Talked to maybe 30 guys who've tried them. 1/30 was perhaps somewhat satistied, and he said "the jury is still out as far as he's concerned" I've read the same things here as well, so many must share this viewpoint. And hey! Good luck with the Gremlins...I'd look into the house wiring as well...maybe it's a safety issue in the end, and worth checking out if it's that pronounced.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Apr 27, 2006 7:51:22 GMT -7
Well said Curt! Let a Strat be a Strat, and a Paul be a Paul. There it is!
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Post by RC on Apr 27, 2006 9:43:58 GMT -7
For question #1 - A true Stratocaster ( Fender, Fender PU's) has inherent characteristics that are part of the guitar. What makes it weak makes it strong. What makes it quirky , makes it right. What makes it less than perfect is perfect. A Les Paul has the same dependable idiosyncratic tendancies in other directions. We learn to make deals with the devils in these guitars and work them for what they are! There are hundreds of romantic notions about " swapping this, and trading that, putting a larger 4 stroke outboard Johnson on a Les paul Junior, or modding a Strat so that it sounds like a Gretch Country Gentleman, or making a Rickenbacker sound like freight train on steroids. If it sounds like I'm a bit off topic, don't get too lost! For the most part, a Fender is a very simple piece of wood. Trying to get it to overacheive is frustrating a lot of times, and may actually take away from the rewards a Fender gives you. Trying to change your wife into the girl next door is sometimes not the better part of wisdom! Let a Gibson be a Gibson, a Gretch a Gretch, and a Strat a Strat. Love them for who they are and you'll live happier! With regard to noiseless PU's, you give up some tonal qualities with them as well. Talked to maybe 30 guys who've tried them. 1/30 was perhaps somewhat satistied, and he said "the jury is still out as far as he's concerned" I've read the same things here as well, so many must share this viewpoint. And hey! Good luck with the Gremlins...I'd look into the house wiring as well...maybe it's a safety issue in the end, and worth checking out if it's that pronounced. I feel the general philosophy of what your saying is good and I agree don't try to make something into something it's not. However in the case of a Fender Strat I don't think I've ever seen two that looked, felt or sounded alike from the factory. To me a Strat is nothing more than a body shape that in the right hands can be personalized in to a truly great instrument. Look at all the different signature series guitars Fender is now making those all started out as someones idea on how to make a better instrument from a Strat. So unless you have an original sunburst 59 tweak away and have fun. IMHO
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Apr 27, 2006 10:30:44 GMT -7
I feel the general philosophy of what your saying is good and I agree don't try to make something into something it's not. However in the case of a Fender Strat I don't think I've ever seen two that looked, felt or sounded alike from the factory. To me a Strat is nothing more than a body shape that in the right hands can be personalized in to a truly great instrument. Look at all the different signature series guitars Fender is now making those all started out as someones idea on how to make a better instrument from a Strat. So unless you have an original sunburst 59 tweak away and have fun. IMHO There is no question that there are a ton of different tones across the spectrum of Strats out there. But none of them sound like a Les Paul, and trying to get to there is probably a great waste of time. I love both sounds, but you just can't get both out of one instrument, no matter how clever you think you are, unless we're talking modelling, and that's another whole discussion.
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Post by RC on Apr 27, 2006 12:15:25 GMT -7
I feel the general philosophy of what your saying is good and I agree don't try to make something into something it's not. However in the case of a Fender Strat I don't think I've ever seen two that looked, felt or sounded alike from the factory. To me a Strat is nothing more than a body shape that in the right hands can be personalized in to a truly great instrument. Look at all the different signature series guitars Fender is now making those all started out as someones idea on how to make a better instrument from a Strat. So unless you have an original sunburst 59 tweak away and have fun. IMHO There is no question that there are a ton of different tones across the spectrum of Strats out there. But none of them sound like a Les Paul, and trying to get to there is probably a great waste of time. I love both sounds, but you just can't get both out of one instrument, no matter how clever you think you are, unless we're talking modelling, and that's another whole discussion. Steve-- Great point, I absolutely agree with you. I never really understood the reason Fender offered a SSH model with the humbucker in the bridge. To me it doesn't sound like a Strat or a LP it kind of just has it's own unique sound.
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Post by GuitarZ on Apr 27, 2006 19:48:47 GMT -7
So, I've had my Gold Top Soap Bar Les Paul for almost 30 years. I basically didn't play any other electric guitars over that stretch. So, when approaching 40, I fell in love with a Cherry top American Deluxe Tele with ivory binding. While waiting for the guitar to get pulled out of the warehouse, I picked up a Strat for the heck of it, plugged it in, and was amazed to hear "That Strat Sound". I played the Tele and quickly realized that it wasn't for me. But that Strat Sound stayed with me.
So, to me, a Strat is a Strat and a Les Paul is a Les Paul. But, I don't doubt that there are magicians and wizards out there that can pull amazing and different sounds out of different instruments. Me, I'm lucky enough to have both guitars.
On the Fender Vintage Noiseless PUs. Put me down as one who really likes them with one caveat. When the Strat's volume is on 10, they sound fantastic to me. They are pure mud anywhere else until I attach my preamp to the guitar. Then the sound is consistent with any volume setting. I record a lot, so I just leave the guitar on 10 and adjust the amp for the drive required. Of course, I really like them because of the hum protection. I wonder if the Eric Clapton American Deluxe gets better reviews because of the on-board preamp. The PUs have to sound better.
I appreciate everyone's views and discussion points. I also appreciate my Strat, because without it, I never would have started thinking about a Dr. Z. And, I just realized this past weekend, that my Les Paul sounds pretty darn good through it too. I'm still scared to try anyone else's Strat. I don't want to end up with Pickup-envy.
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Post by garyh on Apr 28, 2006 9:34:28 GMT -7
Even with humbuckers a strat still sounds like a strat. A lot of the strat's sound comes from the bolt-on neck and the 25.5" scale (as well as woods used and hardware to a lesser degree though I think IMHO). The hums are a useful option though if you want more drive out of your bridge pickup or a fatter sound for your overdrive pedal. Also, if you want to get more of a traditional jazz sound out of your neck pickup. Of course, it's always better to change guitars but for convenience at a gig it's a nice option to have.
With humbuckers used in this way on a strat though, I have found it's the coil-tapped single coil mode that suffers. That's why I like the S1 switching on my strat where I have the true single coils which I use straight 90% of the time but can also be put into series mode to get the Hum-type sounds I mentioned above. It's working best for me right now; gives me the options I want with the smallest compromise.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Apr 28, 2006 10:15:49 GMT -7
My Grosh Strat has a humbucker in the bridge position, but I think there's another reason than trying to make it sound like a Les Paul - have you heard a stock Strat bridge pickup? It's just a bit too bright for me. Not so the Tele! I love the sound of the Tele bridge pickup. But the Strat bridge has never been a tone I've been particularly fond of. But with a humbucker, lowered to match the output of the others, or wound to match the others, that position is a lot more useful. Still sounds stratish, but fatter and ballsier than the single coil. As always, YMMV!
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Post by tele1962 on Apr 29, 2006 8:04:15 GMT -7
This is sort of humorous, but we recorded a guy last night who had some sort of concoction of a Strat style body and controls and PU's of every sort, including a huge boat anchor DiMarzio on the neck position. Finally the engineer, who's a pretty good picker with an even better ear looked at him and said..."everything's goingto be fine, but use ( my) guitar OK? Your's isn't doing anything bad, it's just terribly 'non descript'". He swapped out guitars, put on a stock 1962 RI Stratocaster, and WOW! Suddenly this young man sounded amazing, and he just loved the tone! At the end of the session he asked, " is this why guys seek out old guitars so ardently...this sound?"
Yes, Tyler, it is.
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Post by Hohn on May 9, 2006 4:23:41 GMT -7
I'm a longtime Les Paul P90 player that started playing an American Deluxe Strat with noiseless PUs a few years ago. Question #2 is also about the Noiseless Pickups. How do longtime Strat players view them? I've read that they're supposed to be similar to the 50's pickups with a bell-like tone and a little less signal. True? You can tell that Fender had to work a little harder for these since they dropped in a 1 Meg volume control pot. I had this exact guitar a couple years back-- an oxblood red color w/ rosewood board. I twas a great Strat-- UNTIL YOU PLUGGED IT IN. I played it a bunch in the store before I plugged it in, and my first reaction was "these pickups have to go". Like you, I couldn't stand any hum. But I couldn't stand how these pickups were limiting the guitar. You are right to mention the 1M pot-- that's a real clue right there. Anyway, I ended up discovering Kinman pickups at this time, and installing a set of the standard AVns. Bingo! The tone I was "feeling" was actually making it out to the amp. Putting the Kinmans into this guitar required a new 250K pot as well-- an easy swap (but harder to find a quality CTS unit). I found myself in a tight financial bind and parted with this strat and the new pickups for $750-- (insert donkey sound here). I've regretted it ever since. I truly had a wondrous neck pickup howl that would make SRV smile:) I won't say Kinmans are the be all end all for every Strat or Tele player, but EVERY strat or tele player owes it to himself to at least play a set to see if they aren't the tonal palette they are looking for. I've been toying with installing some Kinmans in my Zion Tele to replace the Joe Bardens, but I'm quite happy with the Bardens. Besides, I should have sold the Bardens a couple months ago when I could get WAY more than they are worth:)
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Post by dei305 on May 11, 2006 10:49:31 GMT -7
GuitarZ, Try soldering a 100pf silver mica cap on the input/output legs of the volume control. You will have smoother roll off and not lose your highs. Also, you may want to change the tone cap(s) to a sozo .047. In addition, you may want to check out Bill Lawrence's strat pups, www.billlawrence.com/. Excellent tone, no 60 cycle hum, and very reasonably priced. Bill designed the SCN's for Fender. It's not what Bill wanted but the Fender ears had him voice the SCN's to their ears. I put a set of SCN's on a friends 89 strat with 250K volume/tone pots; used the 100 pf Silver mica cap, and rewired the 5 way switch so the lower tone control operates just the bridge pickup and the middle tone control is shared with the neck and middle pickup. The 250K pot is actually a push-pull so he can add the bridge pickup to the neck for a tele kind of tone as well as having all three pups on at the same time (very sweet tone). Overall I wasn't excited about the SCN's (Bill's pups simply have more harmonic content available), however, I like the SCN's better than the current Fender noiseless Vintage/Vintage hots. I hope this helps you. Rick
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