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Post by TBox on Dec 24, 2011 6:10:56 GMT -7
I watched the video with Brad Paisley & Joe Walsh. Can anyone see in the video see what type microphones that are used on their amps. I use Sennheiser 609s on both my blue and gold celestions in my Z wreck cab going in two channels on the mixing board, and like everybody else I have used the SM57s in the past. I know I can get a better tone in the sound system if I used a better mike, but I just don't know which one to use.
Any suggestions on the best amp mike for live performances would be appreciated. Condenser/Non-Condenser etc. Thanks!
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Post by jhumber on Dec 24, 2011 6:26:02 GMT -7
I'd avoid condensers for live work, they'll pick up pretty much everything else coming off the stage too. Some people like using ribbons live, and I know Royer make a stage-ready version of the R121, which basically is designed to withstand much higher SPLs. Given their price and delicacy, I'd struggle to recommend a ribbon.
So, I'd stick with a dynamic (or two). If you want to get a broader sound, I'd recommend mixing 2 mics instead of using two of the same. I've always liked the Shure Beta 57a (also works great as a vocal mic). Pairing that with an e609 should sound great. Alot of people rave about the Audix i5, and recently the Heil mics seem to be getting a lot of big-name attention, particularly the PR-20 and PR-30.
Finally, it's worth noting that as always, your signal will only be as good as the weakest link. When the sound hits the microphone on stage it then runs through a (typically) long XLR to the desk, which in turn feeds even longer cables into the FOH speakers. Those things are typically out of my control so for that reason I don't spend too much time worrying about the mic / mic position at live gigs. I've always found it more beneficial to ensure that what's going INTO the mic is as good as possible, and from there it's in someone else's hands.
Cheers Jordan
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Post by TBox on Dec 24, 2011 7:59:44 GMT -7
Thanks Jordan, I have thought about maybe trying a Royer, if I can find a used one pretty cheap. If I tried two different mikes like you said, the say the Beta 57a with my e609, do you mean using it on the same speaker or would it sound the same miking each speaker in my 212 cab. I haven't heard of the Heil mikes. I'll look into them.
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Post by Maddog on Dec 24, 2011 8:00:47 GMT -7
After a short search, trying different mics...guess what? I'm back to the '57's.....just couldn't hear enough difference to tote a $$$ mic to the unpredictable places we play.....If I was in the studio only, I'd go with a Royer....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2011 8:20:00 GMT -7
I think those guys were using the Shure ribbons. Shure bought Crowley & Tripp a couple years ago. They are super durable ribbons. Hard to bet the 609 for sound and ease of placement. Ribbons don't really do their thing until they are at least 6" from the source.
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Post by TBox on Dec 24, 2011 8:48:26 GMT -7
You're right, the 609 is a great mike for placement and its the best one that I've used so far and the SM57 is not bad either. I just want a mike that is going to completely "duplicate" the sound of my Z Wreck and not add any unwanted hi end or low end.
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Post by jhumber on Dec 24, 2011 9:08:24 GMT -7
Thanks Jordan, I have thought about maybe trying a Royer, if I can find a used one pretty cheap. If I tried two different mikes like you said, the say the Beta 57a with my e609, do you mean using it on the same speaker or would it sound the same miking each speaker in my 212 cab. I haven't heard of the Heil mikes. I'll look into them. If it were me I'd mic 2 speakers, more chance of getting differing tones.
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Post by randalp3000 on Dec 24, 2011 10:47:24 GMT -7
You're right, the 609 is a great mike for placement and its the best one that I've used so far and the SM57 is not bad either. I just want a mike that is going to completely "duplicate" the sound of my Z Wreck and not add any unwanted hi end or low end. Not to mention compression. But for me it's been a Hughes&Ketner Red box for 20+ years.
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Post by TBox on Dec 24, 2011 13:53:33 GMT -7
I owned the red boxes, all versions and they were good too. I found the MK II to be my favorite. To me they are the best cab simulators out there, but I started getting some unwanted noises from it, so I went back to live mikes.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2011 9:40:42 GMT -7
I've been heavily using my Shure SM7b. Easy to place and it sounds great. I use the smaller wind screen that came with it. I've used it on my Z Best, 412's and combos with killer results. I'll run stereo with a 58 in certain applications.
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bigbean
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Post by bigbean on Dec 25, 2011 21:59:41 GMT -7
My $.02
- This is based on "Best Mics for recording a live amplified guitar performance" which is a somewhat different than the topic-
To me 609s compress things, so I hate 'em, unless the guy you are recording thinks his guitar sound should be a live version of a "recording of a guitar" sound, in which case he has no dynamics so a mic that compresses his dynamics doesn't matter. Since if you use one of those you have a stand or clip to deal with, so I'll use one on that player.
I view the Audix I5 as a, just as cheap but much improved, SM57 with way better registration of the overtones in the amplified sound (if the player has any - not a given) less mid range honk and wider dynamic tracking. I prefer a 25 deg or so angle to the grille pointed just off the dust cap away from the floor and away from the drum kit
Sennheiser MD421s and MD441s are also very good
The best sounds I've gotten out of a condenser is with an AT AE3000s it has a similar enough form to a Sen E609/906 that you can hang it in front of the grill the same way but stands are still the best. Since you don't need the gain that condensers give you dynamics are usually the way to go.
Ribbons pick up too much stage wash in most live situations (that I deal with) to be used. Plus they are (relative to dynamics and condensers) delicate and susceptible to being toasted by faulty cables with phantom power on them.... but having said that, they are the truest sound you can get for amplified guitar and lots of other things ( I love 'em and wish I owned more of 'em)
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Post by Eddie on Dec 25, 2011 22:24:27 GMT -7
I would lean heavily on what roscoe says as he's been around that type of gear a lot as an engineer/player. I know you already have a 57 and you're looking for something more pure, but the 57 is legendary because of the ruggedness and "quite good enough" live sound. Maybe keep it for live gigs where you don't want to fuss around much, but just plug and play. The higher-end mics might lose their extra magic on a noisy stage in a noisy bar. I admit I speak from ignorance here because I've never had anything better than a 57, but you see an awful lot of them on cabs where the artist or sound guy could have afforded and used something much pricier.
Let us know what you end up with and how you like it. Mics might be just as confusing to me as choosing the right pickup!
Best of luck, Eddie
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Post by TBox on Dec 26, 2011 7:09:21 GMT -7
Thanks for that advice Eddie. I'm still using my Sennheiser 906s for right now. If I get something different, I'll let you know.
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Post by TBox on Dec 26, 2011 7:23:27 GMT -7
Thanks also Bigbean, I have been looking at the Sennheiser 421 also. I'll read up on the other mikes that you mentioned.
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Post by zigzagman on Jan 4, 2012 15:48:16 GMT -7
it's worth noting that as always, your signal will only be as good as the weakest link. When the sound hits the microphone on stage it then runs through a (typically) long XLR to the desk, which in turn feeds even longer cables into the FOH speakers. Those things are typically out of my control so for that reason I don't spend too much time worrying about the mic / mic position at live gigs. I've always found it more beneficial to ensure that what's going INTO the mic is as good as possible, and from there it's in someone else's hands. Cheers Jordan I agree with everything Jordan says in his post...especially this part. From years of gigging I've also found that it's hard to beat a 57 or 609 for cab micing. You can certainly spend more money but you probably won't hear the difference out front.
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bigbean
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Post by bigbean on Jan 5, 2012 14:28:21 GMT -7
I love a "spirited" discussion. This board is very tame - which is good - but a little boring.
My observations about micing guitars in a live performance situation for recording - as opposed to just live through the PA- are based on (I'm embarrassed to say) 40 years experience.
New Years Eve I recorded four hours of groups or solo people using various guitar rigs. This recording will be part of the a sound track of a documentary. Parts may be released on a CD later this year.
I used AE3000s, Senn MD518 and Senn e609 (which as I mentioned I'm not fond of- the "built in- can't get rid of it- compression" part that makes me not like them for recording could be an asset for performing through [let us say] a "mid" level or worse club PA). The amps used were Roland JC120s, a Twin, a Vox modeling amp and a Fender HR deluxe.
Saying that you can't beat an SM57 for the money, in a live situation because you can't tell the difference with an average club PA run by an average live sound engineer is a true statement. However, saying you cant tell the difference between a Z-wreck and a Behringer fake pod through a Crate fw120 with an average club PA run by an average live sound engineer, as long as the drummer is playing, is also a true statement.
It doesn't mean that's what I want to perform through.
If you care enough about your sound to own a Z-wreck why would the difference between a $99.00 SM57 and an $700.00 Senn, Heil, AT or whatever, be a big deal?
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Post by zigzagman on Jan 6, 2012 9:45:37 GMT -7
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Post by zigzagman on Jan 20, 2012 12:20:58 GMT -7
BigBean, I'm sure you've also found, in your 40 years of gigging, that the average sound support company doesn't carry high end mics on their trucks. They set up and tear down too often to have to baby sit expensive mics, which can easily be damaged or lost in the process. The FOH mixer working for the most recent sound support company we worked with, whom we've worked with dozens of times, told me after the gig (when I asked him if they'd been busy) that he'd worked 85 different outdoor shows in the past 90 days. At the end of our gig he was tearing down, loading out, and driving to the next gig location, then working all night to be ready for a 9am start. They carry the standard collection of mics for cabs and vocals, all of which have seen a ton of stage use, and I think the Beta 87A's might be the most expensive mics on their truck. And after working quite a few shows with them I've yet to see one of their workhorse mics go bad at an event. So, sure...one can mic the cab with better, more expensive mics, but why? No one is going to hear the difference until that expensive high end mic craps out from taking a fall or get's knocked over by some stage hand who trips over the cable while setting up. A 57 will take the licking and keep on ticking...even if it gets rained on. And in the event it DOES crap out it's an inexpensive, easy and quick replacement.
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Post by drzplayer on Jan 20, 2012 19:36:06 GMT -7
easy...SM57 ....its all you'll ever need..
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Post by bigbean on Jan 21, 2012 11:22:18 GMT -7
Now we're getting more precise. Which I like. As I mentioned, My comments are a little off topic because I'm talking about mics for recording a live performance which is different somewhat than doing live sound. I would agree with the statements that on the kind of performance that is big enough to have "your average sound company" involved with but not big enough to have as tour specific sound company, an SM57 is as good as anything for live performance. Because there are so many variables out of the players control (condition of the gear is a very important one) that are more important to what the person in the seats is hearing music than the mic choice. It is silly to even talk about it. But there are are many other kinds of performance situations where the variables are fewer so the mic choice is more important. for example: - a house band where the stage placement, monitors, engineer don't change (church bands would be a subgroup of that)
- tour with gear, crew and sound equipment attached
- theatrical type pit band on a several week stand
- weekend warrior where the band and system are the same guys(that video that was posted was a great example)
or any situation where there is going to be a recording of the performance that is going to be edited and mixed to be released as a some kind of product for sale or for promotional use. I think there is a basis for a discussion if those in those contexts. With all of that in mind, here' is my list of mics I'd pick out of a mic case in order from lowest to highest for a Z-wreck and cab 2" speaker hotglued in a Krylon spray can lid with a Montgomery Ward coil guitar cord (not soldered but connected by tying knots in the wire covered with scotch tape) attached Radio Shack "high ball" high impedance mic with a huge dent in the windscreen E609 Radio Shack "high ball" high impedance mic with no dent in the windscreen E906 akg d1000 EV 664 (ditch 9db of the 3k) shure UnidyneIII Unisphere A sm53 sm58 EV n/d 408-468 AT ATM25 sm57 sm59 Audix 15 sm7 Heil pr40 AT ae3000 EV re2000 Senn 421 or 441 Cascade Victor Ribbon (only on large very quiet stage) (The preceding rant was made possible by the fact that I don't feel like mixing a one hour chunk of 22 tracks for a video sound track or cleaning the desk in the office or starting my taxes)
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Post by prowler on Jan 21, 2012 12:30:46 GMT -7
Royer R-121 "Live", simply amazing.
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Post by bigbean on Jan 21, 2012 13:28:09 GMT -7
I love ribbons. I just bought another Cascade Victor. With the pair I can do Blumlein recording. I've done a lot of M/S stuff, which ribbons excel at, but this is first time I'll have 2 matching ribbons. Royers are much better but outside my budget for mics this year (as well as last year and the ten years before that)
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Post by TBox on Mar 23, 2012 18:28:10 GMT -7
Bought me a Sennheiser 421 2 for my Z Wreck. Just got it and haven't tried it yet. It seems a lot of people like this mike. It has a Bass roll off switch. One end of the switch has an "M" and the other an "S" with three clicks in between. Does anyone know what the M & S stand for and where would you recommend setting this switch if I'm miking the Celestion Gold of the Wreck. It doesn't say anything in the manual about the switch. Or where do you recommend placing the mike for the Wreck cab?
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Post by decayocaster on Mar 23, 2012 22:16:06 GMT -7
i'm becoming a big fan of the telefunken M80. like a 57/58 with the blanket removed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2012 8:24:32 GMT -7
Bought me a Sennheiser 421 2 for my Z Wreck. Just got it and haven't tried it yet. It seems a lot of people like this mike. It has a Bass roll off switch. One end of the switch has an "M" and the other an "S" with three clicks in between. Does anyone know what the M & S stand for and where would you recommend setting this switch if I'm miking the Celestion Gold of the Wreck. It doesn't say anything in the manual about the switch. Or where do you recommend placing the mike for the Wreck cab? 5 position bass roll off. www.sennheiserusa.com/professional-studio-microphone-broadcasting-microphone_000984Try it and see how you like it.
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bigbean
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Post by bigbean on Mar 24, 2012 15:48:32 GMT -7
Congrats on your mic acquisition. You got a great mic for the job that you've bought it for. It is also a totally awesome mic for: oboe, bassoon, clarinet, sax, and rack toms. It's a classic. Generally in German micland M= music, S= speech
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Post by TBox on Mar 24, 2012 17:59:08 GMT -7
Thanks Bigbean. I just set the roll off switch somewhere in between M & S. Haven't had a chance to really hear the best place for the switch. Thanks for your help.
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Post by drzplayer on Mar 28, 2012 1:02:12 GMT -7
my guitar sound out front is always mixed by me...usually if i had a sound guy mixing my sound and i liked it I would just go with the flow and nod and say, "that sounds nice"....but if he gave me a crappy tone out front I would ask him if I could personally change my settings to what sounded good to my ear(this rarely happened)... I've questioned my tone out front many times with the sound guys and they would be like, "thats a $800 dollar mic on that speaker"...lol well i don't have to tell you that even a $2000 mic sometimes can sound horrible when not eq'd properly on the board....so can A shure sm57... My magic settings on a basic board were as follows: treble---rolled entirely off on most boards mids---flat bass- flat frequencies were adjusted as needed but by just rolling off that "horrible" treble on most boards got me very close to the sound I heard out of my amp on stage...it became my golden rule....and i always got compliments on my tone from guitarists who were listening... A good ol' SM57 will always do the trick in a bar situation....if you are resulting to a $1000 mic to help you get better tone....I think the problem is not the mic but some other factor. IMHO
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Post by byrdland on Mar 28, 2012 5:35:14 GMT -7
Everything downstream from your mike obviously effects the sound. If you have bad cables, bad FOH board and drunken sound man you have problems. I know of one sound guy that prefers the Sennheiser 906 to the 609. (It's more expensive). I've had a good engineer put an 906 and a SM57 on my cabinet, running two channels for my guitar. I currently use a Sennheiser MD421 (older version). I think it sounds great. I position the 5-way switch in the middle setting. I place it somewhat off-axis to the center of the speaker, slanted in. I've always had best results with sound men that come up and listen to my cabinet at sound check and try to reproduce that sound out front. Many don't. I had one guy ask me what I wanted my guitar to sound like. He said "I can make it sound like anything you want". I said "How about like a guitar?" He thought I was a smart ****.
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Post by TBox on Mar 28, 2012 19:57:38 GMT -7
I agree totally with you Jason. We have a new church and new yamaha digital board and its been hard to figure out. Setting everything flat seems to be the best way. I miked the Z wreck celestion gold with the Senn 421 and then tried something that I've seen on youtube. I used the SM57 on the same speaker. So I'm using both mikes on the Gold with two channels. Its the best out front sound I've had so far. I thought it sounded good, but when people come up and compliment your sound that I've never heard from before, I know it has to be better.
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