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Post by tele1962 on May 28, 2006 21:42:06 GMT -7
I agree, you can spot the goofy ones easily sometimes. I'm still not getting the "buy a used looking pair of shoes" thing. A Custom Shop NOS plays just as nice as a Relic, and speak of looking good, it looks fabulous! The relic looks worn and played perhaps, but that's fake too!
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Post by tjstrat on May 29, 2006 13:50:09 GMT -7
Used to be a guy at a store specializing in vintage here in DeKalb who would buy certain components of old guitars, build one from parts and then sell it as original vintage stuff. Not entirely a ripoff, but once he bought an old Fender neckplat from a friend of mine and told him that it might not look like much to him but it was probably worth an extra $3000.00 on the right guitar...
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Post by oldgoat on May 30, 2006 20:57:58 GMT -7
Sorry tjstrat, but that is a ripoff. Was he was listing the parts and the vintages, being clear on how the guitar happened? If not then he's a crook. The guitar market is so, pardon my anger, so freaking stupid, the last thing needed is some arse taking people for Frankenstein guitars. If you're being straight-up about it, then I've got no problem. Sorry to be ranting, but this whole "vintage guitar" madness is a sore point for me. When I see people willing to shell out $2k for a student guitar just because it's from the 60's or like the dealer swapping out a pre-CBS plate on someone who doesn't know better, then I know we've lost our minds.
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Post by tjstrat on May 31, 2006 2:19:59 GMT -7
Well, let me restate: he DID have some legit vintage parts in the mix, although he wasn't always clear about it until caught red handed. So, yeah, often these were ripoff instruments, but he was clearly a caveat emptor kind of guy. He didn't own the shop, either, and whether these acts were under the owner's radar or not I can't say.
Personally (and I may rub some folks the wrong way for saying it) I like to keep to working man's guitars. Play 'em, try not to stray too far past $1000.00 if I can help it, and buy only what I have a legitimate use for. The vintage market makes my head hurt. An $8500.00 Veleno? I understand. A $5000.00 Mustang? Uh, no...
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Post by BW on May 31, 2006 5:11:04 GMT -7
How many vintage guitar dealers does it take to change a lightbulb? NONE. Replacing any OEM equipment would only serve to devalue the entire ceiling.
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Post by tjstrat on May 31, 2006 5:38:24 GMT -7
I read VG and as much guitar porn as anyone, but looking at ads and seeing line after line of $2999.00, $10,000, $50,000 just is almost too much. It's like watching a major league vs a minor league sport... Obviously SOMEONE's buying that $15,000.00 strat, but there are plenty of us putting MIMs through Zs or Peaveys or Fenders and probably sounding as good as the big guys. The guy making $1500.00 a month in A ball is as entertaining as the guy who could pay off your mortgage with an average at bat in the majors...
I know, weird comparison. It's getting harder to enjoy reading some mags now, or going to a guitar show, or even visiting eBay sometimes. Sheesh.
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Post by billyguitar on May 31, 2006 5:48:22 GMT -7
Here's why I don't believe in building a relic/repro from vintage parts. The first guy sells it and he tells the first buyer that it's a fake and explains it all. Suppose the next guy that owns it takes it to a big show or ebays it and no explanations just a "looks real to me" kind of dialogue. So it sells for real money. That is fraud. If a guitar is a fake it should have a pressed in stamp on the fake parts. Of course that could be filled and painted over but that would raise the hairs on an experienced person who might know they never painted those places on the guitar. I know a guy who built a perfect repro Les Paul but left the original modern serial number in place. To me that's okay because you can see right on the headstock that it's actually a new guitar. You can't really do that with a Fender.
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Post by tjstrat on May 31, 2006 11:10:55 GMT -7
Again, I just keep away. If it plays, the neck looks good, and I can slap decent pickups in it, I can use it. I had irreplaceable gear buglarized away 8 years ago and just don't want to be 6 months or $6000.00 away from something I can stand to play. I agree completely about fraudy gear, but I'll keep out of the pond on it as well...
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Post by anacephalic on May 31, 2006 13:27:17 GMT -7
I'm not a fan of the relic stuff at all. unless i've gigged the hell out of a piece most of my stuff is pretty close to spotless even when its 20-25 yrs old or better. getting it pre-beat takes all the challange out of keeping it nice. on the other hand it also takes the pain out of things when your bass player does a rock star move and buries his tuner in the side of your guitar (same dude also smashed me in the face during a new wave shoe. pretty punk to be finishing the tune with blood pouring down your face)
i read an interesting article by Grun a while back, not sure where i found it. He was commenting on how crazy the vintage guitar collectors were abount not changing a single screw because of the impact ot prices. He was comparing vintage guitars to vintage stradavarious (how ever you spell that) violins and talking about pieces where the necks were shimmed to change the scale and other modifications that were done to keep them PLAYABLE. Didn't seem to affect the prices of them violins much, it's a shame we are expected to keep slipping junk tuners just so we can keep things original. Ya know, the way i see it a 59 strat with a perfect finish and no fret wear was either stuffed in an attic and forgotten about or was such a POS no one wanted to play it.
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Post by tjstrat on May 31, 2006 14:19:30 GMT -7
>>Ya know, the way i see it a 59 strat with a perfect finish and no fret wear was either stuffed in an attic and forgotten about or was such a POS no one wanted to play it.<<
Absolutely!
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Post by billyguitar on May 31, 2006 15:06:25 GMT -7
There are other reasons why an old guitar can be in great shape. I've heard of guys going to Vietnam and not coming back and the Mother still has the Les Paul in the closet. I know about one like that with a ONE piece sunburst body. I'm pretty sure the lady still has it. Sometimes a guy bought a guitar and just never really learned and put it under the bed and there it still sits. A couple of years ago I saw a '54 Tele that the lady only used in church in the '50s, under the bed since. The dealer that bought it didn't clean it or disassemble it, you could tell it was real and in great shape. They're out there but unless someone I trusted would vett it for me I wouldn't touch it. I wouldn't spend that kind of money anyway. Another thing I like about relics is that worn guitars are cool but I know myself well enough that I'd never play any one guitar enough to accumulate that much wear.
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Post by tele1962 on Jun 2, 2006 12:11:34 GMT -7
Worn guitars are pretty "cool" I guess....I 've seen lots and played lots of worn ones. Some great, some good, some terrible. I believe that they all were great, good or terrible from the start, and the cool looks aren't quite cool enough for me to spend dollars to buy a " pre-beat up" guitar. And for the record, I won't pay equal or more $$ to have someone kick in the fenders of a new Lexus either.
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Post by Curt on Jun 2, 2006 12:40:09 GMT -7
Personally I like worn in old s h i t ...always have, not just music gear either, I don't buy new cars either, the few times I did someone would slam into it, or a dunp druck cracks the w/s...something already screwed up is less stressful for me. I like old cars, old saddles, old people and old gear, old boot's, old gloves and old friends. Some aestetic reasons, some less stress reasons, some reasons I don't fully understand.
To me I like to look at worn items and ponder what, when and were that "thing" has been.
BUT..I prefer real wear to intentional/fake wear.
Stepping off of my stressed out soap box and headed for a much needed Friday evening cold one.
A good w/e to all, Curt
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Post by skydog958 on Jun 2, 2006 16:01:55 GMT -7
Personally I like worn in old s h i t ...always have, not just music gear either, I don't buy new cars either, the few times I did someone would slam into it, or a dunp druck cracks the w/s...something already screwed up is less stressful for me. I like old cars, old saddles, old people and old gear, old boot's, old gloves and old friends. Some aestetic reasons, some less stress reasons, some reasons I don't fully understand. To me I like to look at worn items and ponder what, when and were that "thing" has been. BUT..I prefer real wear to intentional/fake wear. Stepping off of my stressed out soap box and headed for a much needed Friday evening cold one. A good w/e to all, Curt I like old clothes! hehe. I found a pair of really cool bellbottom jeans with swede on the sides with crisscrossing layers of denim on top of it. I have a bunch of retro-flavoured clothes (paisly shirts, etc.) that I wear around but mostly on stage. My friends think I'm nuts... On the relic topic....sure, it looks cool, but for me if it's not from natural playing whats the difference? It's not worth the money or the extra wait to have it done, because essentially the guitar plays the same (depending on the finish thickness). If you want to have yours relic naturally, get a guitar with a very thin nitro finish. It will wear (and it resonates quite nicely too). On the vintage market comment....I agree, people are nuts to pay that much $$. For any really old guitar, I would need to fix it up to get it to feel and play the way I want it to. The only vintage gear I will ever buy is gear that is a little messed with so I could have my way with it, and so the price goes down alot. I also really like funky old stuff that is good quality but under the radar, like my '81 Gibson "The V," which I picked up last week. It's essentially a sunburst Les Paul with a maple neck and an ebony fretboard (the '84 CMT V is the same thing I believe), but in a V shape, and w/o that hefty price tag that comes with any LP. To me, instruments were made to be played, not bought and sold like stocks on Wallstreet.
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Post by billyguitar on Jun 2, 2006 16:33:42 GMT -7
Some of us were buying the vintage clothes you're talking about when it came out new! My idea of vintage clothes is a nice suit with pleated pants, old silk ties (except they're usually so short they're hard to tie), and anything made from Gabardine. Getting hard to find that stuff now. The old suits were made of better materials than you get now. What's funny is I can buy some old dead guy's suit and it'll fit right now but anything new and it has to be altered.
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