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Post by teleluvver on Nov 5, 2010 13:57:26 GMT -7
Hi Guys, Has anyone here had an opportunity to compare a 'Wreck to a vintage Top Boost AC30? If so, share your experience and opinions. Also, has anyone here considered buying a vintage AC30 over the 'Wreck? I want a top notch el84 amp, and when costs start approaching the $4,000 mark, my wheels start turning. I own several vintage Fenders, so I know what's involved with upkeep, etc. But I also know that I won't have the depreciation factor. I've spent a ton of money on vintage amps, and still have yet to lose money on any that I've sold. The Brad Paisley 'Wreck demo is impressive, for sure, but I've heard some amateur demos on an old JMI Vox that were just as impressive. I'm looking forward to all of your opinions. Thanks.
Phil
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Post by mikeslub on Nov 5, 2010 17:48:42 GMT -7
Haven't had an opportunity to compare. But you are right that a vintage AC-30 is a beautiful sound to behold.
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Post by T-R☼CK ♫ on Nov 5, 2010 18:45:15 GMT -7
I borrowed a friend's early 60's AC-30, in the late 60's, for a cpl months. Played the sh!t out of it. In fact, he was a close neighbor, and had to come repossess it.
I played the Harvey cabbed, Z-Wreck WFO on stage, for about 15 minutes last June.
Granted....I was not the same player/person/gear aficionado then, that I am now. But........I have a memory like an elephant...esPECIALLY, concerning guitars/amps.
Bottom line, IMO........
there IS, no comparison. fwiw
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Post by teleluvver on Nov 5, 2010 21:01:56 GMT -7
I borrowed a friend's early 60's AC-30, in the late 60's, for a cpl months. Played the sh!t out of it. In fact, he was a close neighbor, and had to come repossess it. I played the Harvey cabbed, Z-Wreck WFO on stage, for about 15 minutes last June. Granted....I was not the same player/person/gear aficionado then, that I am now. But........I have a memory like an elephant...esPECIALLY, concerning guitars/amps. Bottom line, IMO........ there IS, no comparison. fwiw Which do you prefer/favor?
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Post by T-R☼CK ♫ on Nov 5, 2010 22:26:59 GMT -7
The kid I was then....dimed, vintage AC-30.
The old rocker I (reluctantly) now am........
Z-Wreck, bruthr.
Strate in, WFO, w/a '57(ri) goldtop??...........sheeeeeeeeeeiiiiiitttttttttt.......... ;D
Not nearly as much power tube gain/saturation as a vintage AC, but......MUCH more 3D, and pleasing to my old classic rock tuned ear.
As for the controls/switches on the 'wreck...... I don't have a clue. All I can tell you for sure, is that when I played it.....the vol was dimed.
All my changes were via the guitar vol/tone knobs, & it was glorious. I cud prolly live w/that amp till I croak.
Wherever Roscoe(Eric) had it set, was where it was when I played it.
Crimeny....I don't even know what the freekin' controls on the thing are, but.....they work.
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Post by gotmojo on Nov 6, 2010 4:09:29 GMT -7
Hey Teleluvver,
I'm a Tele lover, too. It's my main squeeze for guitars, used 90% of my playing time. I also have the Wreck and an original AC30, which I have only had the opportunity to A-B against each other once - the very day I got the Wreck. Well, I didn't give the Vox much play time as I was so excited to play through the Wreck, so i only have the briefest of opinions as yet. And I'm working this weekend, so chances are I'll not get around to it for some few more days. But I will and I'll get back on this thread and re-review.
But I will go on record here and say that both are world class amps (tip-o-the-hat to Benttop Steve C for such a great coinage of phrase), and like everything in life, there are advantages and disadvantages to each, all but one of which you have already sussed out. Both great sounding amps and both can go from clean to dirty. I use an Air Brake on the Wreck so I can get as much dirt as I want at any volume. The Vox AC30 only gets dirty when you crank it, and it is sweet dirt, but loud. Well ....... Without actually altering the original wiring it is possible to add a Brake Lite to the AC30 and tame the amp down so you can get as much dirt as you want at any volume, which I have just done to mine. But I haven't had a chance to play it but a few minutes, so I need a bit of time to assess things. So, with a Brake Lite, volume limitations are no longer a downside to the AC30.
These two amps are very similarly priced, so you are very hip to consider between the two. Buy a Wreck, and lose some value, I'd imagine, just by taking it home, like a new car. Buy a mid '60's AC30 and you'll see a slow growth in your investment. My experience is you gotta own a vintage piece for at least 5 years to actually be able to sell at a gain unless you get a killer deal, but maybe if the economy returns that'll improve somewhat. But you likely won't lose money unless the economy tanks even more. The buyer market for expensive vintage gear is relatively small, so finding the buyer at any given time who is willing to dish out $4k for an amp can take some time. Not very liquid as they say.
Vintage amps, as you implied, can be finicky and require service from time to time, and therefore could give out in the middle of a gig, so unreliability is a small concern. Mine have been pretty reliable.
Lastly, is convenience. The one thing you didn't mention. An AC30 weighs in at about 85 lbs. It's a mother to haul around for gigs, and because it is so old you feel like you gotta handle it with kid gloves. I like 'em best when they sit in the same place at my house and I don't have to move 'em! Also, does lifting a heavy amp and plopping it down a few times a week increase the likelihood of need for more repairs? Possibly. A Wreck head is about 35 lbs and the cabinet is about 50, and neither are very fragile for carrying around. So a Wreck will be logarithmically easier to gig with just from a weight/convenience standpoint. For an old guy like me, practicality wins out in the long run. After the excitement and newness of an old AC30 wears off, you are carrying around a heavy, potentially fussy amp. Sompin to consider.
Awright, enough rambling. I'll get back when I can A-B these two bad boys a little more.
jj
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Post by gotmojo on Nov 6, 2010 6:40:56 GMT -7
Alright! Thought I had to go to work this morning, but things are delayed a bit, so just spent 45 minutes comparing these two amps!
You know how amps are. Two of the same model and same year can have slight differences that make them sound significantly unique, and that is in full effect here. Both these amps sound stellar, and both have quite a bit of tonal variation when twisting the tone knobs. But I'd have to say the AC30 is one great sound with minor variations, whereas the Wreck can actually get a few different tones - a little broader palette. I can get the Wreck to sound pretty close to the AC30 (bass 9:00 treble dimed) and pretty close to the Stangray (bass & treble 3:00)and then another sound altogether (bass and treble from 11:00 to 3:00 continuously variable) which is more midrangy and quite pleasant. Never does it sound exactly like the Ray or the AC30, each having their own unique voice, and the others can't sound exactly like the Wreck. What one would expect of tube amps, each is it's own little personality.
That being said, the Wreck and the AC30 both rock with world class aplomb. The AC30 has some upper midrange tone that the Wreck never quite can muster, yet that is not to take anything at all away from the Wreck. And the Wreck has some sparkly, glassy highs (middle position 2 pickups on Tele) that are above and beyond what the AC30 can do, and that is not to take anything at all away from the AC30. I found that to equal the nazz of the AC30 when cranked, I have to crank the Wreck volume up to about 3:30. VERY PLEASING nazz at this level, and still a lot of clean/dirty control in the guitar's volume knob. Touch sensitivity may be a bit more prominent in the Wreck, but that's pretty subjective.
I don't believe the Wreck was designed to be a "better" AC30, or to be a Stangray with gain, despite all having an EL84 base. It is its own thang and has its own personality, so really, any comparison is apples and oranges. Still, we compare apples and oranges, don't we? Especially here, in Z World.
One important tip: the Wreck has MUCH more headroom than my AC30! About 2 clicks louder with the Z Brakes. If I understand what Benttop Steve has told me that is about 5-6 dB, which is an arseload. In a loud band/club situation the AC30 might be maxing out and not have that last push to get you where you want to go (and I've had that happen to me with the AC30), but I think the Wreck will take you there with a click or so left on your Brake to spare. Significant difference in loudness.
From all I've said on this topic in this thread and with this first hand experience, if I were faced with the choice of only having one, I'd choose the Wreck for it's practicality as an amp I can use for all situations, home/studio/gig. And that in a tough as nails, reliable and portable package.
OK. Have driven another topic into the ground. Hope it helps, yet, it is just one man's opinion.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Nov 6, 2010 7:01:46 GMT -7
Nice analysis JJ - karma for all that effort!
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Post by doctorice on Nov 6, 2010 8:08:08 GMT -7
Nice analysis JJ - karma for all that effort! Seconded, JJ. I've never played a vintage AC30, but from all reports I've read there can be not inconsiderable variation in those amps. As a result, would-be purchasers may need to do a lot of searching. I'd bet the Z Wrecks will show much less variability.
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Post by markT on Nov 6, 2010 8:38:44 GMT -7
Thanks jj...When this thread was started, I was waiting on you to chime in as I knew you had both. Thanks for the review and commentary. More k to you too~
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Post by hollywood88 on Nov 6, 2010 11:38:09 GMT -7
Compared to a vintage AC30 well there isn't one really. The Vox is an amazing amp and the goods ones do what they do VERY well but that's where they stop. Don't get me wrong I'm not bashing the Vox. I bought a Ray for that tone and have had the chance to sit it next to a couple of those good AC30's and it held it's own very nicely. On the otherhand the Zwreck takes off where the Vox stops at and goes a bit further with the ability to cover a broader range and a slighlty smother drive. It's almost hard to describe the difference because it does this thing that's just kind of magical with your signal. It takes your guitar signal and blasts it off into a orbital sphere of tonal blissfullness. The Vox doesn't seem to darken up as well as the Zwreck without getting kind of muddy doing it. Now mind you this is just my opinion and take on my personal experiences and in no way should be thought of as a end all be all. I think everyone should have 2
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Post by teleluvver on Nov 6, 2010 13:52:58 GMT -7
I appreciate everyone responding. As you can probably tell, I'm working out some things in my head and covering bases before I take the plunge on the 'Wreck. I'll be going on a road trip here in the next couple of weeks to try one. But for those of you who gig, let me present one more question. My experience with attenuators is not that broad, but it seems like a compromise. I mean, why should I buy a killer amp and then attenuate it down? Wouldn't I be better off getting something that I don't have to attenuate? Or is the 'Wreck so good that it sounds better attenuated than most in its class do un-attenuated? All of you with picky ears, is this true?
Phil
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Post by chetz on Nov 6, 2010 14:42:43 GMT -7
I have always liked that "Vox" sound of an AC 30. I have to get a vintage unit.......no new amps Dr. Z! I am pretty tapped after the 'Wreck and really want to get an old Vox!
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Post by doctorice on Nov 6, 2010 14:52:25 GMT -7
Phil (teleluvver),
It sounds great/fantastic with a Brake Lite. Unbraked is probably a notch above, allowing for how our aural perception shifts as volume changes.
Mike
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Post by gotmojo on Nov 6, 2010 16:11:44 GMT -7
I mean, why should I buy a killer amp and then attenuate it down? Wouldn't I be better off getting something that I don't have to attenuate? Or is the 'Wreck so good that it sounds better attenuated than most in its class do un-attenuated? All of you with picky ears, is this true? Phil My theory is, get a killer amp, then get a Z attenuator to be able to play it at any volume necessary. I love the sound of these Z amps even attenuated down hard. No brainer, for me. Answer to a lifetime of searching for a tone/volume compromise. Search over. Nuff said. jj
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Post by mitch8686 on Nov 7, 2010 10:39:11 GMT -7
One more thing not mentioned in the other posts is that the Z-Wreck, being a new amp, has a full factory warranty. Not that it's likely you'll need it. However, components DO fail (nothing that Doc can control) and having the piece of mind that it'll get fixed for free would be a big deciding factor for me, especially when I'm forking over almost four grand.
As far as the Vox-not so much. Unless you buy it from a reputable dealer that will give you an in-house warranty (which will be, at best, 90 days). Another thing is, sometimes you have no idea who's changed/modified/touched the amp over the years. I, personally, want to know EXACTLY what I'm getting.
Anyhoo, just my two pennies.
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Post by teleluvver on Nov 7, 2010 12:23:13 GMT -7
One more thing not mentioned in the other posts is that the Z-Wreck, being a new amp, has a full factory warranty. Not that it's likely you'll need it. However, components DO fail (nothing that Doc can control) and having the piece of mind that it'll get fixed for free would be a big deciding factor for me, especially when I'm forking over almost four grand. As far as the Vox-not so much. Unless you buy it from a reputable dealer that will give you an in-house warranty (which will be, at best, 90 days). Another thing is, sometimes you have no idea who's changed/modified/touched the amp over the years. I, personally, want to know EXACTLY what I'm getting. Anyhoo, just my two pennies. Hi Mitch, Yes, the lack of a warranty is a "con" when listing the pros and cons. And, I would agree that unless you do your research, you can get scammed or get something with non-original parts. But, presuming that you do your research and you don't get scammed, the re-sale value IS a factor to consider. The 'Wreck is an amp that only so many can afford, and therefore may hold its value superbly. Or it may be offered later as a head only and/or without the wood upgrade, which would make it more widely available. I do agree that it is nice not to have to worry about upkeep and finding a qualified tech for the vintage stuff. Thanks for your comments. Phil
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Post by paisleytele on Nov 7, 2010 21:31:16 GMT -7
Granted....I was not the same player/person/gear aficionado then, that I am now. But........I have a memory like an elephant...esPECIALLY, concerning guitars/amps.
Not to toot my own horn or anything
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Post by frankiestarr on Dec 15, 2010 11:21:51 GMT -7
I appreciate everyone responding. As you can probably tell, I'm working out some things in my head and covering bases before I take the plunge on the 'Wreck. I'll be going on a road trip here in the next couple of weeks to try one. But for those of you who gig, let me present one more question. My experience with attenuators is not that broad, but it seems like a compromise. I mean, why should I buy a killer amp and then attenuate it down? Wouldn't I be better off getting something that I don't have to attenuate? Or is the 'Wreck so good that it sounds better attenuated than most in its class do un-attenuated? All of you with picky ears, is this true? I'm really digging the Wreck, but it isn't really a loud amp...breaks up pretty quick. i have never needed a attenuator , not even at home. Can't imagine needing one at a gig. Even if you crank it, it just gets more distorted and compressed, but not much louder. I would take your time, and spend as much time with it as you can. It's quite an investment..... Phil
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Post by bobbyray on Dec 15, 2010 13:12:28 GMT -7
The kid I was then....dimed, vintage AC-30. The old rocker I (reluctantly) now am........ Z-Wreck, bruthr. Strate in, WFO, w/a '57(ri) goldtop??...........sheeeeeeeeeeiiiiiitttttttttt.......... ;D Not nearly as much power tube gain/saturation as a vintage AC, but......MUCH more 3D, and pleasing to my old classic rock tuned ear. As for the controls/switches on the 'wreck...... I don't have a clue. All I can tell you for sure, is that when I played it.....the vol was dimed. All my changes were via the guitar vol/tone knobs, & it was glorious. I cud prolly live w/that amp till I croak. Wherever Roscoe(Eric) had it set, was where it was when I played it. Crimeny....I don't even know what the freekin' controls on the thing are, but.....they work. Yo' Brother! They should put this post on the Z-Wreck page on Doc's site! Might be the best amp review I've ever read.
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Post by English John on Dec 16, 2010 4:48:26 GMT -7
Back at Z fest, Z asked me how it compared to a good AC-30, my response was, i've never played a good AC30 for a start as i've never found an old one that was reliable, i also said that i couldn't imagine it sounding as good as the wreck!
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Post by pcns on Dec 16, 2010 6:24:30 GMT -7
great thread guys, appreciate the reviews and tonal opinions very much . . . sigh . . . I want one of these! Todd
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Post by jashobbsie on Dec 16, 2010 18:59:58 GMT -7
i play attenuated at bedroom level on the air brake on my maz 38, even record that way...i think the tone is really great for at that level....at least to my ears...havn'r heard any dr. z sound bad attenuated or not as of yet! I think we are getting too picky these days, we are all turning into eric Johnson's...lol just play the dam amps and be merry...i don't spend too much time screwing with tones these days in a particular way...I just play and i'm lovin what i have thats for sure...lol
cheers!
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