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Post by John on Apr 19, 2006 13:29:15 GMT -7
I'll be playing my first gig with my Route 66 tomorrow (Thurs: 4/20/06)
Guitars will be a Les Paul and a 335 tuned to open D for some slide tunes.
I'll be using a Fulldrive 2....which I think is awsome with this amp, most likely my Bad Horsie II Wha, and probably my Boss CE-2 for a song or two.
Speakers will either be:
Mesa Boogie 2x12 half back small 1x12 cabinet w/ Celestion 1x12 Wolverine (celestion) from my Marshall TSL601 (then I'll have the amp section of the Marshall right there as a backup, as if I'll need it!)
We play blues-rock music, and the 66 fits pretty well with that. (I didn't want to go with the Strat-neck pickup w/ fender amp sound...way overdone for my tastes) I wanted to keep something closer to a traditional older Marshall sound.
I'm excited, and I'll give a report on Friday.
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Post by Beckanon on Apr 19, 2006 17:07:30 GMT -7
Alright! Wait until you hear the Rt.66 played at a decent gig volume. If you like it at home, you will no doubt be surprised how well it sits in a band mix. The amp is kinda thick? Yes. Dark? Not so much...cuts through nicely if you let it. Don't be afraid to alter your settings from how you use it around the house. Let the amp breathe!!
Enuff advice. Get back to us with your speaker cabinet findings. I'd like to hear what you went with and why.
The Rt.66 sounds great over any roots-based music...even does well with fusion jazz stuff. I think your blues-rock gig is perfect for the 66. Good luck!
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Post by prowler on Apr 19, 2006 17:11:38 GMT -7
Good luck with the gig & let us know what you think of the 66.
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Post by taswegian on Apr 19, 2006 17:29:44 GMT -7
My first gig with the 66 I put all knobs on 3 oclock and blew everyone out of the room I couldn't help myself... I'm sure you're smarter than that but get as much out of the amp as you can get away with. It loves to breathe ;D
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Post by John on Apr 19, 2006 17:52:27 GMT -7
I use my 66 with all the knobs at 3:00, if it's too loud, I'll attenuate just one click.
The determining factor for speaker cab is the size of the room, and the number of people who will (or will not) show up. It's our first time playing at this club, and it's long and somewhat narrow. I don't know if they're expecting us to blast into the back of the room...or just smack the people up front.
If I use only a 1x12, I can possibly run the amp without attenuating...which is cool. (especially the closed back) And besides, I prefer to push one speaker harder than two at less power.
Yes the amp is pretty thick, but I don't think it's dark at all. My Marshall TSL...now that's DARK. (at least the crunch channel) NO, it's not bright like my MAZ Jr., but I don't think it's dark.
I did use the 66 for a couple of songs at a gig last month. My Marshall is (was?) my main amp for this type of gig...and I knew the place would clear out for the last set. (always does) So I could try the 66 for the last few songs of the night. If it's bad, well, no one's there to hear it anyway. Well, I had the knobs set wrong...with the treble on 10:00....and the amp sounded horrible. No punch, no drive. I was SO dissapointed. Wanted to list it on Ebay that night. Then I discovered you have to have the treble at 1:00 or greater. BIG difference. So tomorrow will be with the new settings, and for the whole night.
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Post by taswegian on Apr 19, 2006 18:06:22 GMT -7
Knobs at 3 oclock is mighty loud with the ZBest. Probably louder than my old Plexi. I run the amp at 10 oclock across the board with pedals for cover gigs and I'm still too loud! Or so I'm told! I have a couple old 1-12 cabs....I should look into trying them out with some decent speakers.
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Post by James on Apr 19, 2006 19:11:22 GMT -7
Tas, I was very pleasantly surprised with the RT 66 and the 1 x 12 I bought stock from Doc.........being such a fan of the z best.....I thought I would never use another speaker configuration again.......the 1 x 12 sounds great and in no way is it a compromise........ I think there are a lot of guys who have only used their RT 66's with 1 x 12's..........and they are totally satified with that setup. Very portable, sounds amazing........just the ticket for a small club. Just food for thought!
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Post by John on Apr 20, 2006 6:13:17 GMT -7
Z-best is a 2x12 cabinet. Add speakers= increase volume. (There's a math formula for it) That doesn't fit in with the concept of trying to run the 66 hard. Run the 66 hard and keep the volume down...now that's the trick! And a 1x12 will be best for that.
Yeah, portable, and small too. I don't know how many stages I've played on where it's the size of a postage stamp, amp at my ankles, blasting all the sound out into the dance floor, and I can't hear ANY of it.
I was even trying to search out a speaker that wasn't efficient but would still sound like a traditional Celestion. But what the heck, I'll just go with the standard Vintage 30.
But for tonight, I'll probably just tap into the speaker of the Marshall combo.
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Post by John on Apr 21, 2006 6:47:20 GMT -7
Here's the report from the gig last night. This will probably be a long post as you'll get to hear all the other crap from last night.
The speaker cab I went with is a very small 1x12, just big enought fit the speaker. Closed back cab and I loaded a Mesa Boogie 'Black Shadow' speaker. It's a Celestion speaker made for Boogie. Here's the interesting part. The speaker comes from an old Mesa 2x12 'Half Back' cabinet I purchased in the early 90's. I purchased two of these cabinets. (you know, stereo, rack mounted stuff back then.) So here I have the new 1x12, loaded with a speaker from an old 'half back'...but I still have one original half back cabinet I never sold.
So right off the bat, I'm able to A/B between the new 1x12 and the half back, knowing the speakers are the same. That way, I get to hear the difference in the cabinets alone. Result: The 1x12 is a closed back cab and therefore rolls off the highs considerably. Also, because it's closed back, there isn't the ability to get the cone moving as much, so the half back was considerably louder. Yes, I tried to factor in that the half back is a 2x12. But just from a non tech point, I didn't think it would make this much difference. I attribute more to having the highs roll off and not being able to move the cone as much. Also the 1x12 is very small, just enough to fit the speaker and it's only 11 inches deep, so I know it wasn't going to be the best in bass response. So having a lower bass response, combined with the high end rolloff of a closed back....it was very midrange sounding. Throw on top of that, the 66 has lots of midrange....so I was in for a night of midrange. This was all done at home.
So setting up at the club, I put the cabinet on a milk crate. Unfortunately, it's not high enough, and everythings blasting past my shins. The guitar is not running throught the PA. And not that many people were there. (seems to be my curse in life) So I'm having a problem hearing myself. And, the club manager is also the sound man. (actually, a pretty cool guy) Here it comes:.....he said I have to turn down!!! OUCH!! Even though I attenuate, with only a 32 watt rating, each 'click' makes a huge difference. If I clicked one more down, that would be TOO low, so I had to make the micro adjustments with the volume on the 66. Something I really wanted to avoid. So yes, it took away from my sound, but there was still some hair on it. Thank god for the Fulldrive 2.
And though I'm not running through the PA, the keyboard player is. The mains (FOH) are hung from the ceiling, and bleed over onto the stage. So I've got keyboards bleeding from the mains, then the sound man has keyboard blasting through the monitors, then I've got the keyboard players personal amp turned somewhat towards me. So basically I heard keyboards all night. But "I" had to turn down. NOT FAIR!!
If it had been an open back cabinet, the sound would have bounced off the wall (windows actually) behind me and filled the stage. After last night, I'm considering selling the closed back cab and purchasing an open back. To heck with searching for the 4x12 Marshall sound. I'VE GOT TO HEAR MYSELF!!
And here's another aspect of last night. Our drummer sucks. There's just no two ways about it. I am SO unhappy with him. This is a blues-rock band....80% of the time he should be hitting kick and snare on the downbeat. But no, he's got this accented thing going on. He skips the down beat and adds an accented beat. It completely drops the bottom out. There's never any chance of us finding a groove. He just doesn't get it. And even if he learns a song the correct way, within a few weeks, he's back to his crappy 'signature' sycopated pattern. And he gets defensive if you call him on it. He should never have picked up the sticks. And he's a gear hound. He things because he's spent a LOT of money over the years on drums, that he's good. (and that he shouldn't have to pitch in for a sound man!!) He has 80 cymbols!! If you figure about $150 per cymbol, that's $12,000!! This just gives you an idea about the kind of musician he is. He's got the "I'm good because I have expensive gear" syndrome.
For the first set, we were HORRIBLE. Really embarrasing. I know first sets can be rough, but this was pathetic. For only the second time in over two decades of gigging, we had to stop a song after the first 15 seconds because it was SO bad. Who's fault? The drummer!! Started the beat almost TWICE as fast as it should have been. Then the bass player breaks a string. Not bad by itself, but it's a 5 string and he doesn't have any spares. But by chance, he brought along a $200 crappy 'made in China' no name bass. So he's covered!! But it's a 4 string, and he's been playing the 5 string so long, that his brain isn't converting back to the 4 string. So he's hitting LOTS of wrong notes. So here I am, playing the sucky first set, thinking to myself that we only have one future gig on the books, so perhaps I can tell them tonight that I quit. It was that bad. (I didn't, but I am working on either fixing, or replacing the drummer)
But get this, the manager came up to us during the first break and said he thought we were good. You've GOT to be kidding me! This was an unsolicited compliment. We didn't ask him what he thought, instead, he came up to US and offered it up.
Sorry, you folks wanted to know how the 66 worked out. Summary: Very midrange, had trouble hearing, may have to go with an open back. But other than that, I liked it. However if we play this place again, I'll use the speaker from a combo...which has an open back, and I'll let you know. However for a 1x12 that's only about 25 lbs., you can't beat it when it's 1:30am and you just want to get home. Just throw it in the trunk and you're out of there.
Sorry for the ranting. It's the curse of being able to type 60 words a minute.
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Post by James on Apr 21, 2006 8:37:49 GMT -7
HMMMM.......Playing live should certainly be more fun than that! I think the z best 2 x 12 closed back is actually better for those situations....meaning not being able to mike things. The setting I got from TAS's posts.......all knobs at 10:00.......with the z best is pretty versatile..especially with the guitar rolled off a little. (or on as you need it) This volume level is high enough to keep things in balance when you click on the dirt box...........and it also has some nice clean headroom. Maybe, think backwards.........bigger cab and speakers for louder clean headroom.....is better for a small club. Plus, the mixtyure of the 2 celestions is very complimentary. Having said that, Doc's open back 1x12 is a wonderful, wide open.........airy sounding cab. I just love it. I would love to get another one and load it with a weber or emi for the ultimate portable dual amp setup( Maz 38 and rt 66).
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Post by billyguitar on Apr 21, 2006 15:21:23 GMT -7
How about cutting a football hole on the back of the cab? Dump the drummer. I know it seems hard to find players sometimes but with only one gig ahead you can get a sub and it'll sound better and eliminate the irritation. When you aren't worried about finding a new drummer on the sneak you can really look and put out the word. When you get a new guy you have the opportunity to lay down the rules before he starts in with bad habits. We replaced our drummer recently and everyone is much happier now.
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Post by John on Apr 22, 2006 5:34:11 GMT -7
Sorry 19jmm68...
I don't agree on the 'more speakers for a smaller gig'. If you do that, you're not pushing your speakers, and pushing them gives a cool compression aspect to the sound.
And get this: The day after the gig, the bass player/singer calls me. He tells me he's ready to hang it up!! He TOO was thinking during the first set that he is unhappy and wants to quit. What a coincidence!! The very same thing I was thinking!! He's also unhappy with the keyboard player....who isn't all that great.
This should put some perspective on it. We had a gig last month where the singer/bass player's brother showed up. He's a Nashville session drummer. (won a grammy 'certificate' for playing on a tune that won a grammy. If your the session player, you don't get an actual statue) So obviously the guy's REALLY good. He came up and sat in for about 5 tunes....and we were awesome!! Night and day difference from the real drummer. The next day, grammy winning drummer says to our bass/singer: "You and that guitar player (me) need to dump that drummer and keyboard player...the two of you are obviously so far above them." I'm not saying that to toot my ego horn, but to let everyone know there is SUCH a disparity in the band.
Anyway, I told the bass/singer that we should take a few days and cool off and see how we feel in a week or so. But my main pursuit still holds: Fix or fire the drummer.
We guitar players can sometimes let our ego get out of hand (but NOTHING like singers...right?), but we need to realize the most important person in the band is the drummer.
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Post by taswegian on Apr 22, 2006 18:11:49 GMT -7
Hey gtrman3, that gig reminds me of a band I joined in the mid 90's. The guys were all really young and green. The rehearsals were pretty terrible...but the drummer had something So I hung in there. Our first gig was TOTALLY embarrasing. I just wanted to morph into the back wall. All my "well known" muso friends were there and it was a nightmare! But I absolutely loved where this young drummer put it. He was really back. We went on to record an album, were chased by major labels and turned em all down Our Bass player quit when we sacked our Heroin addict 2nd guitarist...Yeah! rock and roll! The drummer however became a fantastic drummer and played a few tracks on my first album. He is one of my all time favorite drummers now. The point being...you gotta have a drummer that you enjoy playing with and who can hold down the back beat, otherwise you just feel like you are fighting all night and finish the gig feeling frustrated when it's supposed to be fun and satisfying! Good Luck with whichever way you decide to go.
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Post by John on Apr 24, 2006 11:53:29 GMT -7
Yeah Taz, I wish I could use the drummer I want. I played in a band with him for 7 years, that ended in about 2001 or 02', we were doing about 100 shows a year. He's a great drummer and he 'gets it' when it comes to working hard, playing with others, showing up on time....etc. We became good friends. However he's moving to Florida...permanently. I wish I could work with him again. But get this, it's his wife who wants to move....and she's cornered me once or twice over the years about how she HATES hot weather....and she especially hates hot weather at the beach. But they're moving to a condo ON THE BEACH in Florida! That makes no sense to me. But what the heck, I wish them well.
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