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Post by daynwarren on Mar 17, 2006 11:42:42 GMT -7
I have my first Z....a Mini, and love it!
What bigger Z amp is going to give me a similar tone that I am getting with the Mini at 1:30-3:00 o'clock?
I am drawn to the 6545 because of its tonal versatility but haven't played one and wonder if the tone will be for me.
I play Classic Rock and Texas Blues. I need SRV type jazzy clean (Lenny, Riviera Paradise) to ZZ Top over-the-top Power tube distortion. Will the 6545 with a small cab (maybe Z 2x10) and an Airbrake do the trick? Any other suggestions?
Thanks!
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Post by myles on Mar 17, 2006 11:46:55 GMT -7
I have my first Z....a Mini, and love it! What bigger Z amp is going to give me a similar tone that I am getting with the Mini at 1:30-3:00 o'clock? I am drawn to the 6545 because of its tonal versatility but haven't played one and wonder if the tone will be for me. I play Classic Rock and Texas Blues. I need SRV type jazzy clean (Lenny, Riviera Paradise) to ZZ Top over-the-top Power tube distortion. Will the 6545 with a small cab (maybe Z 2x10) and an Airbrake do the trick? Any other suggestions? Thanks! The Mini-Z is an amp in it's own camp. It is more gainy than any other Z amp (short of maybe diming the gain on an SRZ-65 or 6545), but the output distortion character will be much different.
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Post by daynwarren on Mar 17, 2006 12:09:09 GMT -7
Since I love the tone of the Mini is my solution for more volume to buy a second Mini? Also, will this literally double my volume (sounds like a stupid question but I am serious...I don't know) or in other words...Is ten watts twice as loud as five watts?
Another obvious solution would be for the Dr. to create a similar amp to the Mini in sound/tone/distortion but with more power.
Maybe I need a stack of 4 Minis like on the Z website!
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Post by Tom the Guitar Guy on Mar 17, 2006 15:41:34 GMT -7
Isn't part of the sound that the Mini is "famous" for due to the lack of tone control? So the signal is going straight through w/o any coloration?
If so, that would make for some really unique tone in a larger amp!
Thanks! tomtheguitarguy
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Post by foxx on Mar 17, 2006 16:51:05 GMT -7
I am lusting for a Mini Z, that SRV to ZZ range is missing in my Mazerati. I have heard, and can understand this to some extent, that if you doube the wattage of an amp, home stereo as well, that you only get about 3 decibles of an increase. These numbers maynot be exact, but I do not believe that you double the volume even though it would seem so. Maybe there is a noticable increase in volume but I don't think doubles. I could be wrong, maybe some more expertise is needed to answer your question. I would love a stack of Mini heads and 4X8 cabinets, it's just a dream and maybe unrealistic as far as tone and volume but we can dream, can't we?
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Post by daynwarren on Mar 17, 2006 18:36:53 GMT -7
I am also curious:
Would there be a volume difference between the following:
1) 2 Mini Z's cranked (2x5 watts = 10 watts but on two different amps)
2) A single 10 watt amp of the same design cranked
Is it true that adding a second Mini will only increase volume by 3db. How much is that?
I would think that if a Mini puts out 10db cranked that another Mini right next to it would put out another 10db giving you twice the db (20). That would be different than a 10 watt mini which may only increase the sound by 3db over a 5 watt Mini. Does that logic make sense?
Thanks!
I too am craving the the Mini Head with 4x8 cab. I am trying to find a Vox Pathfinder 4x8 (with Celestion Blue Backs) cab to buy!
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Post by zane on Mar 17, 2006 21:41:21 GMT -7
Yeah you could call it the Mini Senior ;^)
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Post by real oldster on Mar 18, 2006 0:29:43 GMT -7
Is it true that adding a second Mini will only increase volume by 3db. How much is that?3db is theoretically the smallest increase the average ear can detect. I would think that if a Mini puts out 10db cranked that another Mini right next to it would put out another 10db giving you twice the db (20).10db beside 10db does not equal 20db, because the power to volume ratio is not linear. In audio 10 + 10 = 13. Sorry. In my opinion the only way to get exactly the Mini sound but louder (apart from getting many, many Mini's, which is way inefficient) is to put the Mini sound into a PA. If you want to get close to the Mini sound but louder you can choose a bigger amp/pedal combination. The possibilities are endless.
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Post by daynwarren on Mar 18, 2006 9:06:12 GMT -7
Strange...I thought there was a difference between adding watts in an amp (wattage difference between a Mini to Ghia) than adding watts side by side. From what you said, because volume ratio is not linear, the Ghia at 18 watts would only be about 1.5 times the volume of the Mini at five watts when both are at full output (although obviously different tone.)
If the only way to get the same (similar) tone is with a bigger amp and a pedal, what amp, what pedal, and how many watts will get me double the volume and that Mini Z Tone? Any else?
Also, does speaker size, or cab size matter? Would the Mini Z be louder or appear to be louder through a 2x10?
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Post by daynwarren on Mar 18, 2006 9:36:04 GMT -7
I just found this info which helped me understand a little more:
A quick lesson on physics; one I learned the hard way. The relationship between the strength of the signal (the power or watts of the amp/speaker) and the volume (as perceived by our ears) is NOT LINEAR. Half power does NOT equal half volume. The relationship is in fact logarithmic. If you want to compare the relative volumes of two different wattages do this: a) divide the larger value by the smaller value, b) take the base-10 log of this ratio, and c) add 1. This will tell you how loud the one is in relationship to the other. You can also take that number, invert it (1/x on your calculator) and that will tell you how loud the one with the lower power is in relationship to the higher.
In short, 22 watts is 73% as loud as 50 watts. To get to 1/2 the volume of 50 watts you need to get to 1/10 of 50 watts -- 5 watts! [Note: there's a lot more to determining how loud an amp will be than how many watts it's rated for.]
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Post by daynwarren on Mar 18, 2006 9:49:29 GMT -7
This is great info for deciding which Z to buy...
How much louder is a 100-watt guitar amp than a 50-watt guitar amp?
Hey… after all this mathematical gymnastics, this one is a piece of cake! We know that watts are a measurement of electrical power. You’ll recall the dB formula for power measurements is Power dB = 10 log (P1 / P2)
where P1 and P2 are the two readings being compared. You can already probably figure out in your head that the answer to the problem is 3 dB. 10 log (100 / 50) = 3 dB.
There are two sound sources playing in a room: say, a drummer playing at 72 dB, and a guitar player playing at 66 dB. What is the loudness of the two playing together? Remember, decibels are logarithmic units, and can’t be simply added together to produce a meaningful result. If we added 72 dB and 66 dB in the example above, we’d come up with a figure of 138 dB—which is approximately the volume of a jet engine at one meter! Remember that the upper threshold of human hearing is about 120 dB. Common sense tells us that either our answer is wrong, or we’re listening to one hell of a loud band.
There is a formula that allows us to combine decibels levels of different sounds from different sources in this manner. If the level of the first sound is represented as dB1, and the second sound, dB2: dB of combined sound level = 10 log (10 dB1/10 + 10 dB2/10)
If we plug in the figures in the example, we’d have the following: 10 log (1066/10 + 1072/10) = about 73 dB.
But wait – haven’t we already said that “twice as loud” means an increase of 6 dB? There appears to be a contradiction here, but really there isn’t. When we talked before about a 6 dB boost in a sound being twice as loud, we were in fact talking about a single sound being boosted from it’s previous level. The above formula holds true only when the two sounds being compared are different. It’s a subtle but crucial distinction. The formula is useful, because when we talk about sound levels combining in this manner, we’re almost always talking about different sounds. The fact is that if the two sounds are similar enough (i.e., phase correlated) the actual increase will be higher than predicted by the formula—and if the two sounds are the same, the increase in level can in fact be up to 6 dB.
From reading all of this I have concluded that 2 Mini Z's together, becasue they are the same sound, will be up to 6 db louder than a single Mini Z. From reading that the human ear will percieve 6-10db increase as twice the volume, 2 Mini's are louder than one, or close to it.
I must stop now...I just need to go plug in and play!
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Post by Lefty on Mar 18, 2006 9:55:12 GMT -7
I've had two Mini's at the same time...you don't get anymore volume just more sound. Sort of like the difference between running multiple cabs. You're not increasing the power just the dispersion. I would mic the mini, and rock on!
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Post by taswegian on Mar 18, 2006 10:12:48 GMT -7
Wow, that's an interesting read Daynwarren +1 for the Math!
I guess it comes down to where the sweet spot is on any given amp too...and headroom. The mini is much louder cranked than at 12 O'Clock. Small increments of level can have a huge impact live.
I think if you didn't need a clean sound you could gig two mini's miked. Hearing the guitar through front of house adds another dimension as well. I gigged the mini in a small venue with a band once and it was pretty cool although when the band got louder it got a little thin. But with two I think sound wise you would hang in there. Like lefty said, it would be a little thicker which could be perceived as louder as you are hearing more frequencies that aren't getting buried by bass and cymbals... It's late here (4:11am) and I think I'm talking crap!
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Post by foxx on Mar 18, 2006 13:28:02 GMT -7
Here's a related question, Steve and I were discussing the Hotplate and how it can absorb the entire load from an amp and then put that into another amp. So, could the Mini's tone be transfered into the Hotplate then into a louder clean amp, let's say a Mazerati. How much tone is lost in this configuration? I would guess that the end result would be something different than that of the Mini thru the 8" Weber. Would the Dr. put the variable DI on a Mini? This could bypass the need for the Hotplate, as well as the need to mic the Mini. That DI could go into the louder "cleaner" amp. I don't have experience with any of these devices, except the Mazerati alone, so I am just asking about the possible solutions to a "louder" Mini tone.
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Post by real oldster on Mar 20, 2006 1:54:18 GMT -7
could the Mini's tone be transfered into the Hotplate then into a louder clean amp
This is similar to the Mini into a PA that I suggested earlier, except that a PA would presumably reproduce the tone more faithfully than another guitar amp, which by design alters what it is fed. However, the Mini into a bigger amp might yield something unique and useful. ;D
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Post by foxx on Mar 20, 2006 8:48:06 GMT -7
So, maybe someone here on the forum, who owns a Mini, an 8 ohm Hotplate, and another Z amp could do the experiment? That's alot to ask I guess, but it is a curious possibility of a new Z tone.
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Post by pedalcr8z on Mar 20, 2006 14:39:37 GMT -7
Dayn, it's Victor....I sold you the Mini. See my post concerning a Maz/Mini comparison in the Mini boardroom.........trust me what you want is the Ghia AND the Mini.
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Post by guitarboy02451 on Mar 23, 2006 19:21:03 GMT -7
A ghia is a sweet amp... Still waiting for mine to come in... :-( but, I certainly love the MAZ SR. with a Z-Brake. With the Z-Brake you can manually control the DB rating...
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