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Post by John H on Dec 31, 2022 12:25:08 GMT -7
I believe this is my first post, probably because I have nine Dr.Z amps and I've never once felt that I was unable to achieve the sound I was looking for with any of them. The EMS, however, has (so far) not allowed me to achieve the Marshall tone that I've heard in my head as a 26 years professional sound engineer, and aftering owning numerous Plexis, JMPs, and JCMs, and also a JTM45. The JTM45 was the only true Marshall that ever felt like it was THE amp for me, but I unfortunately sold it long ago. This all being the case, my questions is...
Would I be better having my EMS modded to be the ultimate JTM45, or selling the EMS and purchasing an Antidote or Remedy?
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Post by pcns on Dec 31, 2022 12:46:39 GMT -7
What is the Marshall tone you have in your head? Cab and speakers matter ( you already know this though being a sound engineer for 26 years) so maybe a different combination? What cab/Speaker are you using now? Todd
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Post by John H on Dec 31, 2022 14:48:27 GMT -7
What is the Marshall tone you have in your head? Cab and speakers matter ( you already know this though being a sound engineer for 26 years) so maybe a different combination? What cab/Speaker are you using now? Not entirely sure how to descibe it, but it's definitely not a flubby bottom end or humbuckers kinda sound, nor is the brighter fizzy sounding stuff from the 70's. Currently, my Maz38 set on the edge of breakup with a low gain flat mids TS type pedal and slightly higher output single coils is getting me there. I'd say it's Hendrix meets Van Halen II. I have a bunch of cabs and a ton of speakers, so I've tried a dozen combinations. However, to keep from putting too much into the equation I've pretty much stayed using my '73 angled Marshall cab that's currently loaded with 2x G12M and 2x G12H Heritage Greenbacks. At this point I'm not feeling that it's a speaker issue, as I've done enough experimentation to know that's generally just a EQ change when switching cabs/speakers. What I'm feeling is a feel and response issue. Tube rectifier or not, my EMS just feels incredibly stiff, sterile, and unresponsive to what I'm used to. My Mazs, Route 66, Z28s, Carmen Ghias, EZG, Z-Lux, and Jetta are all considerably more enjoyable to play.
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Post by nmz on Dec 31, 2022 17:39:48 GMT -7
If volume is not an issue I’d lean towards the Antidote. I’ve had all three (all great on their own) still own the EMS. But I’d still have the Antidote if volume was not an issue. Remedy I feel would give you the fizz you didn’t want.
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Post by Paul (TRANE) on Dec 31, 2022 20:44:45 GMT -7
I would say Antidote based on your tone descriptions. Another option would be the CAZ45. It is 6L6 based and can cover so much territory tone wise.
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Post by purpletele on Dec 31, 2022 22:17:59 GMT -7
What is the Marshall tone you have in your head? Cab and speakers matter ( you already know this though being a sound engineer for 26 years) so maybe a different combination? What cab/Speaker are you using now? Not entirely sure how to descibe it, but it's definitely not a flubby bottom end or humbuckers kinda sound, nor is the brighter fizzy sounding stuff from the 70's. Currently, my Maz38 set on the edge of breakup with a low gain flat mids TS type pedal and slightly higher output single coils is getting me there. I'd say it's Hendrix meets Van Halen II. I have a bunch of cabs and a ton of speakers, so I've tried a dozen combinations. However, to keep from putting too much into the equation I've pretty much stayed using my '73 angled Marshall cab that's currently loaded with 2x G12M and 2x G12H Heritage Greenbacks. At this point I'm not feeling that it's a speaker issue, as I've done enough experimentation to know that's generally just a EQ change when switching cabs/speakers. What I'm feeling is a feel and response issue. Tube rectifier or not, my EMS just feels incredibly stiff, sterile, and unresponsive to what I'm used to. My Mazs, Route 66, Z28s, Carmen Ghias, EZG, Z-Lux, and Jetta are all considerably more enjoyable to play. My Maz 38 is quite incredible with the volume cranked and the Master at 9 or 10, But I feel like I want to try a bigger bottle tube. I have been watching Adam's Videos of the Caz 45, my gosh that's a big tone. You may want to look closely at some of those videos. The Caz 45 seems to have all of the classic Rock Tones.
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Post by adam on Jan 1, 2023 12:04:39 GMT -7
Lucky me has all 3 of those plus the CAZ plus about 6 other Marshall modded type things so you'd think I could help... I'll try anyway.
The obvious question is "which Marshall tone" which you answered Hendix and VH. Those are sort of worlds apart to me. Even if I listen to any given AC/DC record, the tones are pretty drastically different from song to song. The all sound "Marshall" somehow though. Or maybe consider that a lot of the recorded tones are a Marshall boosted in some way, like VH with the MXR eq at some point.
Thoughts
EMS - if you play on the 800 side with the gain about 9:00-10 with a strat, it sounds a lot like Jimi's cranked Marshall stuff and also cleans up really well from the guitar volume. If you take that same sound with a Les Paul, it sounds a heck of a lot like some of the good early Aerosmith stuff. It's not a ton of gain, and you really have to play well to pull it off, but I think that's a pretty magic sport on that amp. Also, don't be afraid with any of this stuff to put the bass on say 0, just forget about where the knobs are. DiMeola said he used to put the presence and treble on 0 on his Marshall and he got great sounds.
Remedy (plexish) - to me, there's a world of great old Marshall sounds sitting in this box with messing with the volumes. From super clean (and pretty loud) Allman Brothers to all kinds of other classic rock when cranked, and that might be volume 1 one on 3pm, volume 2 off, bass basically off.
Antidote (jtm45ish)- tons of beautiful clean tones. If you really crank that thing (and look out), there's some absolutely brilliant AC/DC type tones in there. I kind of feel like if you had Malcom's guitar, you could be right there with the best of his tones.
CAZ - more into that modded Marshall territory just based on available gain, but it really sounds like it's own amp. You can get a really wide range of rock gain tones out of this amp, and the bonus of this one is you don't have to blow your head off to get there.
Others - an Egnator SW45 can sound a hell of a lot like Rush's first record (the CAZ can too though). The Splawn quick rod and nitro are really cool at that modded Marshall sound, quick rod being very unforgiving, nitro being a little less articulate. The randall/synergy stuff - I've tried owned a bunch of those modules, but the Jaded Faith plexi module is probably the coolest, and that wasn't exactly cheap either because I had about $800 In mods to the the amp, plus say $250 to get an existing module modified, plus of course, the cost of the amp in the first place. Friedman pink taco 2 - that has a really cool ac/dc type sound in it. BUT, with all this stuff, it always seems like there's something missing from the Z stuff, like the Z's just have a lot of life and nuance and extended harmonics. They just have something magic in them. I've talked to Mike about this stuff, and in general he kind of says the more components or circuitry, the more you lose something in the integrity of the signal. Like a resistor or capacitor might give you something, but it's also taking something away wether it be dynamics/amplitude, frequency, phase, who knows. Like the pink taco has been polished into this place to get that tone, but there's just something missing when you play it, and you can't really put your finger on it other than it's not doing that magic thing where things like overtones or harmonics jump out from nowhere sometimes (for lack of a better description). Or maybe they just feel more articulate, like playing softer or louder or angling in the pick or not makes a bigger difference in the Z's and when that starts to go away, you just feel like you are missing something that makes playing electric guitar so fun in the first place.
In summary - no single amp does everything I guess.
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Post by pcns on Jan 1, 2023 12:47:24 GMT -7
Lucky me has all 3 of those plus the CAZ plus about 6 other Marshall modded type things so you'd think I could help... I'll try anyway. . . . . . . . In summary - no single amp does everything I guess. Hey Adam, Nice summary, having been to your place and heard first hand most of what you have described as spot on. The comments on the tone controls, especially the bass control is important. I really struggle with knobs, my son Joshua has no problem turning knobs all over the place but I have a hard time doing this myself . . . I'm getting better though
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Post by pcns on Jan 1, 2023 12:50:54 GMT -7
just for the record . . . one of my favorite Z tones of all time was one of the prototype Antidotes with EL34s cranked with my old Ampeg 4x12 with G1265s and my Parker with a humbucker. It was plugged straight in the amp and sounded glorious (good thing it sounded glorious because I was actually at church when I tried this). I have no idea how Marshally or what gen Marshally this sounded . . . it . . . just . . . sounded . . . . GREAT ha ha
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Post by j4gitr (John) on Jan 2, 2023 6:41:58 GMT -7
I used a Barber Direct Drive v1 with my Maz18 to mimick, to me, the sound of my old plexi.( I sold the plexi around 1980 after 10 years owning it. So the memory was 30 years old.) The Antidote gave me some terrific push and the sparkle was reminiscent of that old Marshall. Like Adam said when you cranked it “watch out” you had authority, I too found some of what I remembered, but I had to surrender it as the volume was too much. I’ve often thought I’d like to own an EMS, but I realize that for me, I wouldn’t use that tone of my past. We all have a tone in our head. Finding it is an individually unique journey to which your years of Z’s and experience can attest. I hope my reflection on the Antidote helps. Perhaps try an Antidote before surrendering the EMS, if possible, and see which one is closest to your tone. But only after, as others mentioned, closing your eyes and exhausting the twisting of the dials on the EMS.
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Post by John H on Jan 16, 2023 23:16:28 GMT -7
Thanks for the ideas to everyone that's replied. No definitive decisions made as of yet, but I did spend the afternoon going through the EMS with one of the best amp techs in Chicagoland. Amp was biased cold, with quite a bit of crossover distortion. We bumped up the bias a bit and it definitely warmed things up, and significantly improved the feel. Next we noticed some mechanical noise coming from the rectifier tube, so we swapped that out. Was hoping it would make an audible difference but it did not. Next we did some swapping of V1 and V2, settling on a 7025 in V1 and a 12aV7 in V2, which made a significant improvement in the bringing down the gain and increasing clean headroom, however, at the cost of overall volume. Next we added an additional bypass cap on the bass leg of the tone stack to allow in some more warmth. Lastly we opened up the phase inverter coupling caps which allowed more warmth into the power tubes, and brought back the volume lost by using such low gain preamp tubes. Am I done? Absolutely not, but it's definitely more in the ballpark of what I'd like to have.
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Post by adam on Jan 17, 2023 17:22:13 GMT -7
Trying to think of what might to say that might be helpful, but maybe this amp just isn't for you is my overall thought.
You got me thinking so I just fired my EMS up with a 4x12 greenback cab with a strat and tele. Pretty loud, JMP side, gain around 9-10pm, master up to about 1pm where I feel it starts really hitting the power tubes. A little cleaner and less volume with the master at say 11-12pm, but it's still louder than I think I could really get away with for the most part. Then tried the same thing with the remedy (non master) and I'd say they are pretty similar in how loud they go and remain clean. I didn't try my maz38, but I'd say it's somewhere in the same range of volume and clean. Feel wise, I'd say all 3 are around the same area.
The antidote, kind of going from memory here, but I'd say in general you really have to push the volume more to get to where it starts to breakup, so say louder, but it's also probably the most unforgiving one of the bunch too. It's maybe a little warmer that the Ems or remedy in general, particularly with the kt88's. Volume and clean, that's sort of in the EZG territory too.
Maybe you really are looking for something with more pure output power, so maybe a 100 wattish amp is really what you are yearning for. I kind of think if that jtm45 was what your gold standard was, maybe just get one of those. Or talk Z into making you a Z80... that won't be cheap, but that thing has headroom and balls and character for days. That amp should really be released, but the target audience and manufacturing cost really limit the viability of releasing that to normal production. But what an amp!
Best of luck.
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Post by wraparound (Steve) on Jan 17, 2023 21:50:15 GMT -7
I’m wondering. We all do the best we can with what we have, but the tubes that came with even used amps I bought “long ago” were RCA, Sylvania, Mo-Valve, Mullard, GE, and the like. The feel thing is what brings this to mind. It may not be as much a thing with the other Z amps do to perhaps their original design that you have no memory to compare them to. But if the Marshall was home ground and had some of the afore mentioned tubes, and you are trying to get that comfort thing happening (we probably all are), it could well be part of the equation that is missing. The beauty of tubes is that you can alter the tone and feel of your amp. The bad part is that you have to sometimes. I had an old Hiwatt custom 50 that came with Mullard preamp tubes and Gold Lion KT77’s, and yes, I did my crummy best replicating that combination. Don’t be surprised if even the guitar cable, and speaker cable you used with the JTM45 were a part of what you felt. It really can be that simple sometimes.
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