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Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Jan 20, 2022 17:31:14 GMT -7
I need help understanding high output pickups (humbuckers). I play some heavy stuff like stoner metal, nothing really percussive or anything. High gain, down tuned, and slow. It seems to me that with more winds, you lower the resonant peak and eliminate some high and low end for the sake of more millivolts AC. Clean, this has a noticeable, and totally unwanted effect on tone. I use low wind pickups because I want as much dynamic response as possible without limiting frequency response under high gain. When I think I need more output, I use a boost which increases the signal without lopping off the highs. I need help understanding why someone would sacrifice frequency response for output when you can boost with a pedal. Same goes for compression, you “pedal that in” too. Active pickups are a different story as they are generally low wind and boosted internally. Cool, but who wants to put batteries in their guitar?
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Post by Norrin Radd on Jan 20, 2022 20:41:56 GMT -7
Because higher output pickups were designed way back when good pedals weren’t readily available yet?
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Post by nicholas on Jan 21, 2022 4:51:30 GMT -7
I think it's more about the amps being used with them. Most of the guys using high output pickups also are using modern super high gain amps with tons of low end and preamp fizz. The HO pickups lop off some of the low end and tighten up the amp. The loss of some of the treble frequencies cancel out some of the fizz. That's my theory anyway.
I've always preferred low or medium output humbuckers for the most part. Like Duncan Antiquities, Alnico 2 pros, the Slash set is really good too. I like Gibson 57 classics, CustomBuckers, stuff like that. However I've had a Suhr Aldrich bridge pickup in my Les Paul Custom for a few years. It's awesome and not what I'd noramlly call the high output sound. It measures 17.5k. So I guess these more to generalizing pickups by that measurement alone.
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Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Jan 21, 2022 6:38:19 GMT -7
I'm with you on your go-to pickups above, love the Slash set, regular A2s, and the 57s. I can see where the focused mid response would tighten up a gained up amp, but can't that be done with a boost pedal and then eq'd to suit? Because once you eliminate highs and lows at the pickup, you can't dial them back in. I just wouldn't use a pickup that sounds like a wet blanket when playing clean.
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Post by Seńor Verde on Jan 21, 2022 9:29:51 GMT -7
What is your definition of high/low output? I like PAF type wind in the 8.5-9K range, depending on the guitar but some people consider that high output. Any lower for humbuckers sounds too thin and weak to me. My single Strat and Tele pups are probably considered Hot, for single coils, but again, I like a little fuller sound in general. I don't use a compressor, but used to use a dedicated boost for single coils. It just made them louder, not fuller.
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Post by beyer160 on Jan 21, 2022 10:07:17 GMT -7
Noise.
The more electronic gain you have in your chain, the more any noise gets amplified. If you start with a hot signal from the pickups, you need less gain later on in the chain.
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Post by GuitarZ on Jan 21, 2022 10:20:35 GMT -7
I'm going to say it depends on the tone and sound that you want. For example, if your first guitar was a high gain monster and you loved it, you've adapted. And, visa versa. I played my P90 Les Paul from age 15 through now only adding a second guitar, my Strat, at age 40. The P90's are not high gain monsters, but they have fairly more output vs the Strat. There are days that I'd like to have that output in the Strat, but I do want my Strat to sound like my Strat. So, I'll go with whatever works for you is good.
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Post by nick0 on Jan 21, 2022 11:14:27 GMT -7
I'm going to say it depends on the tone and sound that you want. For example, if your first guitar was a high gain monster and you loved it, you've adapted. And, visa versa. This! There are different ways to get there. A traditional method of higher output pickups into a high gain amp with a mid humpy style of drive into the front was common back when I was doing it. The higher output pickups had a hotter and more consistent signal, more compressed. They shelved off some top and and added low and lower mids for those chunky palm muted riffs. The lack of frequency response and dynamics is desirable to keep everything tight. Can you get there with an eq pedal, compressor, and drives? Absolutely and I'm sure it sounds killer. As long as the pups are potted enough so you don't get squealing at stage volumes. However, getting a more "shredder" style guitar into a high gain amp is simple. My board back then was an amp channel switcher and two pedals. There is less gear, less cost involved, and an easier rig to understand. If you don't need the flexibility, it's a simple way to go.
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Post by pcns on Jan 21, 2022 13:40:57 GMT -7
Good topic Since I started winding pickups and doing all kind of experimenting I agree with the less DC resistance can give you a much more open sound. Highs and lows you can't get back. These lower output pickups sound amazing cranked up with a high gain pedal or hot amp too. I have a shelf full of protype pickups, some wound as high as 19k and all type of different magnet types. It's fun to play with and see what you can come up with. Noise is a good someone made but higher DC resistance doesn't always translate into more noise, even in a single coil pickup. At the end of day inductance is what really drives your pickup output and there are many variables that drive that. Wire gauge, coating, coil size blah blah blah, it all matters and can affect the tone of your pickup. I also liked the comment about liking what you grew up with too. Here is something I see at guitar shows a lot. I guitars for demo with different pickups available. Left on their own, people tend to migrate toward my hotter pickups. It's kind of natural, at first blush they drive more and are louder. When I coach people into adjusting the amp and pedals for each guitar to adjust for relative volume and gain they tend to buy my lower output pickups because there is so much more dynamics available. Pickups are the foundation of your signal chain. If you change them you should expect to have to adjust/dial in everything in your signal chain. my 2 cents, Todd Greenvillepickups.com
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on Jan 21, 2022 15:23:01 GMT -7
based on this thread (which piqued my curiosity), I just did a bit of reading on how a pickup's resistance relates to its output, and whether you can meaningfully compare resistance figures of different pickups to determine with is "louder." Based on the articles I saw from Lindy Fralin, Seymour Duncan, and others, the answer appears to be a resounding "no." Which is what I would have guessed -- resistance doesn't directly relate to "output." It just indicates, more or less, how many winds the pickup has (but is affected by wire gauge and other things). I don't know that there is a truly good way to determine a pickup's output without installing it, strumming, and measuring peak output voltage. I think resistance is just a very rough short hand way to try to do that, but when comparing two pickups it really cannot tell you which is "louder." or I could be wrong. edited to add: as one response put it "Output voltage is determined by many things, of which DC resistance is only 1 part. It's like asking how to predict the outcome of a car race by comparing the brands of tires."
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Post by nicholas on Jan 21, 2022 15:48:37 GMT -7
I'm with you on your go-to pickups above, love the Slash set, regular A2s, and the 57s. I can see where the focused mid response would tighten up a gained up amp, but can't that be done with a boost pedal and then eq'd to suit? Because once you eliminate highs and lows at the pickup, you can't dial them back in. I just wouldn't use a pickup that sounds like a wet blanket when playing clean. I'm not really sure why someone would prefer going that route. I know what I like and what works for me. So I don't think about the reasons of other people much. Luckily we have plenty of choices. The Slash pickups are great! And I'm not even a big fan of his. I just really like the pickups. I actually just got a pickup from Seymour Duncans custom shop a few days ago. I told them I really like the feel of the Antiquities and also the output of the Slash pickup. I asked for a pickup like blend of the two as best they could. Can't wait to try it!
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Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Jan 21, 2022 16:59:32 GMT -7
MJ wound as well! Let us know what you think. Not a Slash fan either, just love the pickup.
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Post by nicholas on Jan 23, 2022 5:46:36 GMT -7
MJ wound as well! Let us know what you think. Not a Slash fan either, just love the pickup. It's excellent. I put it in Fiday night and played on and off all day yesterday through a variety of amps. It's big and open sounding. Sounds great with gain, but it's not so hot that it squashes a lower output cleanish amp. Very dynamic even with a little 18 w el84 amp. I'm not sure exactly what they did. It sounds to me like an slightly underwound Slash with degaused A2 mags. Or like a wax potted overwound Antiquity It's really cool they will make you a one off pickup like that! They have a custom form right on thier website. You just fill it out and wait. So glad I did this.
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Post by helmi on Jan 23, 2022 6:57:55 GMT -7
I must be the odd one out, because I tried a signature Slash set in a PRS singlecut, and didn’t care for them at all. I’ve had alnico II’s before, in a 490r/490t set in a 95 Les Paul studio, and really liked them.
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Post by nicholas on Jan 23, 2022 8:14:55 GMT -7
I must be the odd one out, because I tried a signature Slash set in a PRS singlecut, and didn’t care for them at all. I’ve had alnico II’s before, in a 490r/490t set in a 95 Les Paul studio, and really liked them. Yeah, different strokes for different folks and all that. That's why there are so many to choose from I guess. I'm pretty sure the Slash is pretty much an overwound Alnico II. It is pretty amazing how much of a difference the little changes in them can make. Seems like a pickup can work for one person but not the next, even if they were chasing the same sound. Probably depends alot on the amp and other gear too.
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Post by helmi on Jan 23, 2022 10:08:50 GMT -7
I must be the odd one out, because I tried a signature Slash set in a PRS singlecut, and didn’t care for them at all. I’ve had alnico II’s before, in a 490r/490t set in a 95 Les Paul studio, and really liked them. Yeah, different strokes for different folks and all that. That's why there are so many to choose from I guess. I'm pretty sure the Slash is pretty much an overwound Alnico II. Don’t get me wrong, I really wanted to like the Slash pickups, that’s why I bought them. they just didn’t excite me at all, and I’m NOT a “hot” pickup kind of guy. years ago, I had a 2 sets of Kent Armstrong humbucker sized P-90’s that I loved. One was in a Dearmond M-77, the other set in a Epi dot 335. they sounded great in both. Tried another set in my strat as a H//H set-up. I couldn’t get them out of there fast enough. they were HORRIBLE sounding. the guitar was so bright I think I peeled paint off my walls. the maple neck and alder body with them did NOT jive together at all. you just never know.
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Post by headshrinker (Marc) on Jan 23, 2022 10:27:00 GMT -7
Seems like a pickup can work for one person but not the next, even if they were chasing the same sound. Probably depends alot on the amp and other gear too. And don't forget the hands that are playing the guitar. That may be one of the biggest influences.
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Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Jan 23, 2022 12:51:08 GMT -7
I must be the odd one out, because I tried a signature Slash set in a PRS singlecut, and didn’t care for them at all. I’ve had alnico II’s before, in a 490r/490t set in a 95 Les Paul studio, and really liked them. Yeah, different strokes for different folks and all that. That's why there are so many to choose from I guess. I'm pretty sure the Slash is pretty much an overwound Alnico II. It is pretty amazing how much of a difference the little changes in them can make. Seems like a pickup can work for one person but not the next, even if they were chasing the same sound. Probably depends alot on the amp and other gear too. I seem to be an alnico II fan. Just like the response and going when dirty and chime when clean.
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Post by pcns on Jan 24, 2022 10:20:55 GMT -7
I don't want to start a tone wood discussion so I won't . . . . I've built pickups and installed the exact same pickup in several body type guitars, different wood, bridge, fret board, pots, cap and so on and have that great sounding pickup sound terrible in another guitar. I built some pickups for Will Shea that I did not like when I made them but sounded fantastic in the guitar he built. Looking at Alnico II vs Alnico V magnets. Alnico II reminds me of a Tweed amp tone profile. A little heavy in the mids and a little hairy when driven to over drive. Alnico V reminds me more of a Blackface amp tone profile. A little scooped, a touch brighter and tighter bottom. I am generalizing here and trying to translate pickup tone into amp tone so take this thought with that in mind. I like Alnico II in low wind pickups, its warm and smooth and the low DC wind gives it a nice top end. Alnico V in a low wind can be very bright and give you some really cool single coil characteristics. More bite and snap (AV is a stronger magnetic). The cool think with the Alnico V is you can overwind it to take down the top end a little bit and get some really cool upper mid tones things going with more a focused tone. My favorite thing from guitars shows has been having metal players step up. I'll give them a lower wind pickup to play with and high gain dirt pedal (Metal Zone or a Rat usually) and see their faces light up and smile, especially when they drop the tune and get these great clear distorted tones (neck and bridge). When they find out the pickups are not HOT pickups their jaws drop. I love this topic, its so fun to talk what works for each other Todd
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Post by nick0 on Jan 24, 2022 14:00:04 GMT -7
Looking at Alnico II vs Alnico V magnets. Alnico II reminds me of a Tweed amp tone profile. A little heavy in the mids and a little hairy when driven to over drive. Alnico V reminds me more of a Blackface amp tone profile. A little scooped, a touch brighter and tighter bottom. I am generalizing here and trying to translate pickup tone into amp tone so take this thought with that in mind. That's some great insight on magnet types Todd. Thanks for sharing!
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Post by John on Jan 24, 2022 14:41:54 GMT -7
I prefer light to moderate output pickups. Let the amp do the work.
For 'buckers, something in the PAF family is my cup o' tea.
As I understand it, 'hot' pickups came about in the late 60's early 70's as a way to slam the front end of an amp to try to get more overdrive.
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Post by Faze on Feb 15, 2022 8:46:40 GMT -7
I don't want to start a tone wood discussion so I won't . . . . I've built pickups and installed the exact same pickup in several body type guitars, different wood, bridge, fret board, pots, cap and so on and have that great sounding pickup sound terrible in another guitar. I built some pickups for Will Shea that I did not like when I made them but sounded fantastic in the guitar he built. Looking at Alnico II vs Alnico V magnets. Alnico II reminds me of a Tweed amp tone profile. A little heavy in the mids and a little hairy when driven to over drive. Alnico V reminds me more of a Blackface amp tone profile. A little scooped, a touch brighter and tighter bottom. I am generalizing here and trying to translate pickup tone into amp tone so take this thought with that in mind. I like Alnico II in low wind pickups, its warm and smooth and the low DC wind gives it a nice top end. Alnico V in a low wind can be very bright and give you some really cool single coil characteristics. More bite and snap (AV is a stronger magnetic). The cool think with the Alnico V is you can overwind it to take down the top end a little bit and get some really cool upper mid tones things going with more a focused tone. My favorite thing from guitars shows has been having metal players step up. I'll give them a lower wind pickup to play with and high gain dirt pedal (Metal Zone or a Rat usually) and see their faces light up and smile, especially when they drop the tune and get these great clear distorted tones (neck and bridge). When they find out the pickups are not HOT pickups their jaws drop. I love this topic, its so fun to talk what works for each other Todd This is very useful information. I have experienced this as well concerning the same pick ups sounding different in different guitars the wood and also neck and also the weight of the guitar play a huge part in your overall tone. I posted in another thread about it. I love the sound of my fender custom shop 69 pick ups In my white stratocaster. I tried them in my purple strat and they had a completely different tone. My purple strat is on the heavy side not too heavy but it is heavier then my white one. The purple one has always been a bit bright. I tried several pick ups over the years since 1997. I finally put the suhr V60 low output pick ups in it and now it sounds amazing. I really believe it all depends on the wood and weight. I even changed the neck from a maple neck to a rosewood neck prior to all this years ago to try and warm up that guitar. It did a little bit but at the end of the day it was the low peak pick ups that did the trick.
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Post by JonesKY on Apr 5, 2022 9:42:49 GMT -7
for me it's become a matter of practicality... I like the ease and versatility of being able to swap guitars (Tele, Strat, Les Paul, ES-) for their relative differences without having a big jump in gain between them; therefore, the Fenders are slightly boosted (6-7k w A2, A3, A5) and the Gibsons are low-wind (7-8k A2). but having said that, a fatter pickup like an SD, a JB, or even a mid-wind Air Norton (etc) into a mid-high gain amp is also a wonderful sound, and "feels" different than a low-wind bucker with a boost or EQ. even an EMG S, SA, T (etc) w the SPC is cool, as Gilmore or '90s Carlton proved. for me, there isn't a "best" - it's more a function of the situation. my $.02, YMMV.
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