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Post by adam on Dec 21, 2021 17:35:50 GMT -7
I have a question that is not generating anything which I think is relevant in a google search and wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this.
What is the effect does having a high output power tube have on the tone of an amp? Does it all kind of "work out" and make no difference once the amp is biased for lower output tube compared to a higher output tube? There has to be some difference in tone or dynamics or distortion or volume or something?
Thanks in advance, and much appreciated.
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Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Dec 21, 2021 18:12:59 GMT -7
Do you mean in an amp that can use a variety of power tubes? If so, I was wondering that same thing regarding the Lux as it can use both 6v6 and 5881s. Do the latter increase the output power beyond what the Z12 s rated for?
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Post by adam on Dec 21, 2021 18:15:04 GMT -7
No, I mean the same tube type in the same amp. The other is for another thread I think.
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Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Dec 21, 2021 18:28:02 GMT -7
So same tubes with different idle current ratings? Like Mesa’s coloring system or Grove Tubes numbering?
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Post by adam on Dec 21, 2021 19:47:47 GMT -7
Yes.
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Post by Paul (TRANE) on Dec 22, 2021 7:25:09 GMT -7
I have found the response/feel to be more impacted than straight tone wise. What I have noticed is lower rated tubes push into overdrive faster where higher rated tubes stay cleaner at the same volume level.
Hope that helps. I love the 500 shades of gray between clean and fully driven so I shoot for tubes that are middle rating wise.
Interesting side note, for my DC30 mid range tubes red plate. So I get tubes from Perry that are closer to the lower ratings.... But on the border. So for that amp the lower rating keeps the tubes from red plating and I still get the full range of tones/feel I desire.
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Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Dec 22, 2021 8:33:56 GMT -7
I think that this is one of those things that varies amp to amp. Different output transformers especially. I would really like to hear Doc speak on this topic. While I've definitely found different feel and tone with hotter or colder bias settings, I can't really point to a difference between hot/cold tubes of the same make and type, at least in a fixed bias amp.
With cathode biased amps I do find a difference but that's because the bias level is preset via the output tube cathode resistor(s) and hotter tubes run hotter, colder tubes colder. But it's not really different than the change you'd see when you adjust the bias on a fixed bias amp hotter or colder with the same output tube(s).
It would be real interesting to have two identical amps, fixed bias design, one set up with 'cold' tubes and the other 'hot' tubes, and bias them both to the same percentage, maybe 60% or whatever your preference for that amp. Then you could do an A/B comparison. The thing is that in the time it takes to change tubes and re-bias the amp your ears have forgotten what the previous setup sounded like, so it's tough. I guess you could make a recording and do it that way. I'm following this to see where it goes, it's a great question.
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on Dec 22, 2021 16:34:35 GMT -7
Are talking about something like whether it’s “better” to run big engine at lower rpm’s than a smaller engine at higher rpm’s? That is, is there a sweet spot for output tubes, given the same bias setting, based on the spec voltage of the tubes? I’m interested in the thoughts, and obviously would love Doc’s view (and Myles if he’s still lurking here).
And great question Adam.
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Post by adam on Dec 22, 2021 17:58:40 GMT -7
All good comments here. My first inclination is to just ask doc because I don't really trust anything I read on the internet about this kind of thing, but that's not fair and he has a million other things going on. Electonically and theoretically, I'm sure he can just spit that out, but I wonder if anyone as he even checked that kind of thing out. Honestly, the google searches yield nothing on the subject which seems a little odd. The real reason I ask is I have some new tubes which idle at 30ma below some of my nos tubes, so #1 it just makes me wonder.
And yes Dave, I don't know how you could really answer the question without having 2 amps setup side by with that kind of variance in available tube power.
Thanks all!
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Post by ME on Dec 22, 2021 18:16:11 GMT -7
Definitely a good question. No simple answers. I wrote a couple different responses, neither adequately answered the question. Too many variables. If you had two sets of tubes from same manufacturer, from the same run (all same metal and specs) that somehow had different ratings that were significantly different you could try to sus things out. Different runs with potentially (probably) different metallurgy in the internals make such comparisons pretty much impossible. ME
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Post by DRZ on Dec 22, 2021 19:39:24 GMT -7
I have a question that is not generating anything which I think is relevant in a google search and wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this. What is the effect does having a high output power tube have on the tone of an amp? Does it all kind of "work out" and make no difference once the amp is biased for lower output tube compared to a higher output tube? There has to be some difference in tone or dynamics or distortion or volume or something? Thanks in advance, and much appreciated. OK since I have been repeatedly asked for my thoughts on this subject, being in a Holiday mood I give it a shot. Now this isn't easy to explain as it is quite complicated technically, but remember Adam asked about the differences in TONE. So first if output tubes were rated on a scale of 1 to 10 , like Groove Tubes did, I throw out the ratings 1&2 , and 9&10, why because the extremes sound like $hit take my word for it. So we are dealing with say a scale of 3 to 8 and I prefer 5 & 6 as what I call MEDIUM range tubes that I set my self biasing circuits to. But if you go out to #8 and down to #3 you will hear a slight tonal change . Now tube ratings consist of Transconductance Variations . What is Transconductance you ask. Well it is the devices ability to take a signal on its input and turn it into output signal. The more output it can generate for a small input signal is how it's Transconductance is rated higher rating more output from smaller input. Now all of this can be measured on a bench with test equipment , but you would be hard pressed to be able to hear the difference between 25 watts output and 30 watts output. But you could measure that 20% increase. So to try and answer Adams question in "Guitar Players Terms ": Higher Transconductance tubes with give a bit more " Crunch " to your tone, they will output a bit more and clip sooner. they will also have more touch dynamics and have a bit more " Hair " on the notes. Lower Transconductance tubes will be a bit " Smoother " more balanced, like a slight amount of compression is added to signal. When pushed hard with say an overdrive pedal they will respond with a very nice smooth output. As noted by many in this thread , the circuit , the bias setting, the output transformer bandwidth, and the attached speaker will play a significant role in the Tone perception. I must say I never like to read ones evaluation of any tube on the internet. Why because each of the items I listed above will factor in its tone, and will change from amp to amp with little or no solid definition unless you are comparing the identical source , let alone how one hears and translates that into words. Merry Christmas everyone ! DR.Z
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Post by "Z" Steve on Dec 22, 2021 21:30:07 GMT -7
The Doc left us a gift with a bow around it!! Merry Christmas to the Zaite family, including the Z employeez!!
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Post by adam on Dec 23, 2021 4:00:49 GMT -7
Merry Christmas everyone ! I'm taking that advice as "Don't worry about it. Don't spend the time or money going down that rabbit hole and just play guitar, and that will help you sound better". Probably not what you intended, but I think that's my takeaway. Thanks, and Merry Christmas back at you!
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