bobro
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Posts: 35
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Post by bobro on Dec 18, 2021 4:04:04 GMT -7
Guys,
I got my Z-Lux and a Z-Best cabinet to go along with it. I'm starting to see a trend with the Z's. It's never enough. And my current dilemma is about the speakers in the Z-Best.
I can see why people say the sound is 3-dimensional. It's the biggest sound I've ever heard from an amp. It's a huge sound and reminds me of an old Fender Bassman cab I had with 4x12's on angled baffle boards to project the sound in all directions. Very woody sound, very open. And all over our room that's tiled - 15' wide x 50' or 60' across (living room, dining room, kitchen in one room).
My goal is to get the correct speakers to match what the Z-Lux sounds like, and be able to play in the apartment if that's possible. Otherwise, I will load one of these into my Fender Blues Jr IV to have something to play through in the apartment.
Here's what I have to work with:
Z-12 (eminence) - 8 ohms - this one is coming in the mail
G12H 70th Anniversary, 8 ohms, 30 watts - in Z cabinet G12M Creamback, 8 ohms, 65 watts - in Z cabinet Celestion A-Type, 8 ohms, 50 watts
What should I put together out of what I have? My inclination would be to pair the Z-12 with the G12M Creamback 2nd option would be the Z-12 with the Celestion A-Type But I am posting this to get some insight from those that already have a lot of experience with the Z-Lux
And what would be the ideal pairing in a Z-Best Cab for the Z-Lux?
I would love to get some low wattage speakers so that I can get the sound at lower volumes. Celestions are more affordable out here (Switzerland) than American made speakers.
Let me know your thoughts! I've been reading tons of advice and threads on the Z forum to get this far.
Thanks,
bobby
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Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Dec 18, 2021 8:44:29 GMT -7
I bet the Z-12 and the Celestion A-Type or the G12H would sound stellar with the Z-Lux. I tried a bevy of speakers (all the ones you mentioned except the A type) in my Z-Lux 1x12 combo and liked the Z-12 best.
Doc uses the Z-12 in the Z-Lux combos and I've learned through experience that when I start swapping speakers I just about always end up putting the stock speakers back. The man's got phenomenal ears and an uncanny knack for tone combinations. The thing is that the Z Best is a long throw cab and it's truly made for the stage. It needs room to breathe. The saving grace is the outstanding master volume control on the Z-Lux, so you'll be able to control it. All that said, nothing will count but your own ears and experience. You've got an outstanding amp and terrific speakers and they all would sound great...it's what you and your audience need to hear and feel that counts.
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bobro
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by bobro on Dec 18, 2021 11:49:20 GMT -7
Yeah, I will probably get a 1x12 Z-cab soon, after my wife gets over the shock of the Z-Lux and the Z-Best.
I agree with you. I think that the Z-12 and the Celestion A-Type would be a perfect American style combination.
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Post by mule43 on Dec 19, 2021 16:23:53 GMT -7
I have both a Z-Best and the 1x12 convertible cab and a Z-Lux. The Z-Best has a Vintage 30 and a 70th anniversary and the 1x12 has a vintage 30. These are the stock speakers, no swaps yet so I can't speak to the speakers. What I can tell you is that I use my Z-Best in my living room and can easily keep it below 85 dB. I do try for 80 dB but since the Z-Lux is so touch sensitive I do hit 85 at times. I like to keep the volume and master around 1:00 and use a Brakelite on 4 and the guitar volume to keep it there. I have also found that I like to be at least 7-8 feet away from it, It seems like at that point is when I start hearing both speakers more evenly. It will also move a lot of air when you push it harder. When I turn up the Z-Lux I always use hearing protection.
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Post by Seńor Verde on Dec 19, 2021 20:07:56 GMT -7
My opinion might not count for much as I've never owned a Z-Best and didn't get along with the Z-Lux when I had it. However... Seems to me the Z-Best is a very neutral cabinet that was designed to go well with every Z amp. So, I would go with whatever the stock speakers the Z-Best comes with. I do know that sometimes swapping speakers in a cab that was originally designed a certain way doesn't end up with the desired effect.
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bobro
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by bobro on Dec 20, 2021 8:38:02 GMT -7
Well, I tried the Celestion A type speaker. There was a guy on YouTube that had put one in his Z-Lux if I remember correctly, and it sounded really ice-picky with that speaker in it. He was playing a Tele and the Doc even jumped in and said that he felt like the voicing on the Celestion A didn't have the smooth highs that go with the Z-Lux. Well, he was right because I had replaced the Celestion G12H Anniversary with the Celestion A type. The A-type definitely has an American flavor, and I thought the Z-Best cab would dampen the spike-y hi frequencies, but it did not. The highs are extreme, even if I turn the high down on the Z-Plus EQ. I didn't get a Celestion V30. I usually have at least one of them. I had a Marshall 2061c cab with a V30 and a Celestion Gold in it, and another Marshall 4x12 with V30's. But a guy in the shop I bought the Z-Lux from (in Germany) recommended the Celestion G12M 65 Creamback. I do like this speaker and heard it in some YouTube videos a few months ago. And the biggest news so far is that I feel I've made a huge change in the sound of the Z-Best in my living room! I dampened the port so that I can enjoy it on this tiled floor. And the volume is a little better. It still sounds like a 4x12, but it's a lot tighter than it was. It's in between a Marshall 4x12 straight cab (more of the vintage, expensive kind) and the Z-Best as far as tightness goes. I think it sounds much better than my Marshall 2061c cabinet. I don't know why. It just seems clearer and more resonant maybe. Like the wood sounds better. I can't put my finger on it because I don't have the two together. I will put a throw down rug soon to dampen some of the liveliness, but it made such an improvement in the sound. I also got away from the speaker like you guys said, about 8 feet away, and it sounds amazing now. I have the Celestion A and the Celestion G12M 65 Creamback in it. I will change out the A type to the Z-12 and then call it a day. Here is a picture of what I did with the port. I took this concept from closing ports on my mixing speakers. I had some really blurry stuff going on with the bass and couldn't mix without closing the ports. I have since moved on to some Focals that do have ports, but they don't smear the bass.
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bobro
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by bobro on Dec 21, 2021 1:05:58 GMT -7
I bet the Z-12 and the Celestion A-Type or the G12H would sound stellar with the Z-Lux. I tried a bevy of speakers (all the ones you mentioned except the A type) in my Z-Lux 1x12 combo and liked the Z-12 best. Doc uses the Z-12 in the Z-Lux combos and I've learned through experience that when I start swapping speakers I just about always end up putting the stock speakers back. The man's got phenomenal ears and an uncanny knack for tone combinations. The thing is that the Z Best is a long throw cab and it's truly made for the stage. It needs room to breathe. The saving grace is the outstanding master volume control on the Z-Lux, so you'll be able to control it. All that said, nothing will count but your own ears and experience. You've got an outstanding amp and terrific speakers and they all would sound great...it's what you and your audience need to hear and feel that counts. Hey. I did a test run with the G12H in my Fender Blues Jr cabinet. The head isn't in it and the back isn't on it. I plugged it into my Z-Lux and then my Marshall Silver Jubilee. This speaker sounds really good. It sounds great clean and distorted. It's full bodied, but clear at the same time. I see why Dr. Z puts it in his amps.
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Post by John on Dec 26, 2021 5:16:56 GMT -7
I would love to get some low wattage speakers so that I can get the sound at lower volumes.
If you are saying what I think you're saying.....the above is a false statement.
Low wattage speakers are not 'quieter' speakers. The wattage rating doesn't have anything to do with how loud/efficient the speakers are. (loud/efficient for a given amount of power....relative to other speakers.) The power rating is telling you how much power the speaker can handle before it breaks. (breaks= voice coil burns up)
An example is the Celestion blue. It's rated at only 15 watts....but it's 'loudness' rating (measured in db) is 100. Which is rather loud/efficient.
In contrast, the Celestion GT10 is rated at twice the power handling...30 watts...but it's loudness rating is only 95 db. (and 5db is a significant reduction in volume!)
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bobro
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by bobro on Dec 28, 2021 11:49:21 GMT -7
I would love to get some low wattage speakers so that I can get the sound at lower volumes.
If you are saying what I think you're saying.....the above is a false statement.
Low wattage speakers are not 'quieter' speakers. The wattage rating doesn't have anything to do with how loud/efficient the speakers are. (loud/efficient for a given amount of power....relative to other speakers.) The power rating is telling you how much power the speaker can handle before it breaks. (breaks= voice coil burns up)
An example is the Celestion blue. It's rated at only 15 watts....but it's 'loudness' rating (measured in db) is 100. Which is rather loud/efficient.
In contrast, the Celestion GT10 is rated at twice the power handling...30 watts...but it's loudness rating is only 95 db. (and 5db is a significant reduction in volume!)
The speaker "break up" or distortion isn't occurring because the speaker is lower wattage?
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Post by jazzmasterjonny on Jan 10, 2022 20:46:39 GMT -7
A speaker I use in a Deluxe Reverb that I'm thinking of buying for my Z-Lux is the Eminence GA-SC64 12". It's meant to be a replacement for a vintage Jensen, and I have to say, I think it sounds excellent all around for American-voiced amps. It handles overdrive VERY well. Sounds great clean, sounds amazing with light to medium overdrive. From my experience, that's one that I'm really pleased with. I'm just about to buy one now for my Z-Lux, because every time I plug in the Lux to that speaker, it makes me want to play with the amp even more.
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Post by j4gitr (John) on Jan 11, 2022 7:45:37 GMT -7
If you are trying to quiet ultimately things down, why not look for an attenuators like the Brake lite or the Z Air Brake. It might save a lot of time and effort trying to reduce the volume of that Z-Best cabinet.
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Post by helmi on Feb 6, 2022 4:54:20 GMT -7
A speaker I use in a Deluxe Reverb that I'm thinking of buying for my Z-Lux is the Eminence GA-SC64 12". I use one in a Valclone and it IS a wonderful speaker!
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bobro
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by bobro on Apr 21, 2022 0:46:36 GMT -7
My opinion might not count for much as I've never owned a Z-Best and didn't get along with the Z-Lux when I had it. However... Seems to me the Z-Best is a very neutral cabinet that was designed to go well with every Z amp. So, I would go with whatever the stock speakers the Z-Best comes with. I do know that sometimes swapping speakers in a cab that was originally designed a certain way doesn't end up with the desired effect. After I've spent 4 months playing through the Z-Best cab, it is not neutral and it won't go well with every Z amp. I have a Z-Lux and I think it sounds way better with an open back 1x12 cab and a Z-12. The Z-Best can be boomy. I have a Marshall Studio silver jubilee that the Z-Best gets along extremely well with, so I would imagine that the Maz 18s would sound great with it.
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bobro
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by bobro on Apr 21, 2022 1:17:02 GMT -7
An update for everyone. I have spent 4 months working through different speakers in the Z-Best. Here are the speakers I've worked with: - Celestion G12H 30 watts, 100DB
Bass and treble strong - Celestion G12M Creamback 65 watts, 97DB
Smooth - Celestion A-Type 50 watts, 98DB (Harsh - the doc was spot on with what he's said about this speaker - the highs are really grating, like barbed wire)
- Dr Z Z-12 50 watts, 99DB - rich, reminds me of an alnico speaker
I bought the Z-Best loaded with the G12H and the G12M Creamback. When I got it, the speakers weren't broken in and I thought it sounded boomy on the bass end and blurry, and overwhelmingly loud. I have learned so much since then (in 4 months). Here are the things that have happened: - The speakers are now broken in and sound so much better, smoother.
- I changed the Z-Lux tubes from 6V6s to 5881s. This notched a lot of the bass response down. The amp sounds closer to a Fender, but still like a Fender on steroids.
- I have had time with all the speakers, isolating all of them in a Blues Jr (I use the Blues Jr right now as a 1x12 cabinet for the Z-Lux) except the G12M creamback.
- I realized that the master volume on the Z-Lux allows the amp to be playable at low volumes! Revelation. I usually keep the Volume/Gain at noon and decrease from there if I need to fine tune the lower volume, or to say it a better way, if my wife is looking at me a certain way, I need to lower it even more, and that's when I reach to the Volume/Gain and decrease it from noon to about 9 o'clock.
- The Z-12 sounded good with the G12M in the Z-Best, but when I took it out and put it in the Blues Jr (I use the Blues Jr right now as a 1x12 cabinet for the Z-Lux), Wow!!! What a match. Just that one speaker (Z-12) and the Z-Lux. I now need a 1x12 cabinet. The Blues Jr is made of particle board (or whatever the correct term is) and has a very open back. They say that this material allows the speaker to be heard clearer and I think it's true. There is no added wood tone, and the open back allows the speaker to push naturally without being affected as much by the depth of a back wall.
- I put some acoustic panels inside of the port in the Z-Best and blanketed the back wall of the cabinet with polyester cotton like filler that you find in couches. This, in my opinion, makes the Z-Best easier to work with at home and less boomy.
I ended up going back to the G12H and the G12M Creamback in the Z-Best. It isn't an ideal setup for the Z-Lux. But it sounds amazing with my Marshall Studio Jubilee. It makes that amp sound huge, more like a 100 watt version (I used to have the 100 watt Silver Jubilee, but I like the 20 watt better), so I would imagine it would sound great with a Maz 18, which I will get my hands on soon enough. This speaker configuration gets a smoother overall sound with plenty of bass projection from the G12H. The potential for too much mid high aggression from the G12H is tamed by the smoothness of the Creamback. I know that the DB ratings are 3DBs apart, but this is the best combination of speakers I've come across with the speakers I have in the list above. I have really grown to appreciate and understand the Z-Best and enjoy using it now.
So, in conclusion, I've learned a lot along the way and I wanted to share that knowledge with you guys. The Z-12 in a 1x12 open back cabinet and the Z-Lux sound amazing. Very rich tone, detailed. The highs are more well defined/detailed than a Jensen in my opinion. The Z-12 sounds like a modern American voiced speaker - same character, but better definition, tighter bass. That's where my head is at with the Z-Lux - a 1x12 cab with the Z-12. As a tone hound, I wanted to share one final thought. When I was in my 20's, I was at a water park (Schlitterbahn in New Braunfels, Texas) looking for a tube to ride down on. There were about 30 of them in front of me, all black. Each one seemed to have some sort of bump that wasn't quite what I was looking for. One of the guys that worked at Schlitterbahn watched me as I couldn't decide which tube to take, then walked up and said, with perfect timing, "There is no golden tube!"I think that applies with this crazy chase of tone. I have had enough time now to truly appreciate what the doc has done and I am playing constantly now.
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Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Apr 21, 2022 3:57:22 GMT -7
Very cool thread and great observations, bobro...Here's a curve ball for you. I've run the Z-12 in my Z-Lux combo for years and it's been a great speaker. But I am the type that can't leave well enough alone, so recently I bought my first Fane speaker, an F-70. 70 watts, 100dB sensitivity. It sounds really good in the Z-Lux, similar to the Z-12 but it has something that I struggle to describe in the midrange; it has this mid push that doesn't sound like a mid push. It's in the upper mids and it just makes everything sweeter. The highs are clear and bright but not strident or annoying at all. It chimes great and loves overdrive pedals. Overall it's a great speaker and I'm going to be trying it out with other amps.
EDIT: My original post said the speaker was the A-70, and I erred...it's the F-70.
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Post by scottunzicker on Apr 21, 2022 7:06:10 GMT -7
Very cool thread and great observations, bobro...Here's a curve ball for you. I've run the Z-12 in my Z-Lux combo for years and it's been a great speaker. But I am the type that can't leave well enough alone, so recently I bought my first Fane speaker, an A-70. 70 watts, 100dB sensitivity. It sounds really good in the Z-Lux, similar to the Z-12 but it has something that I struggle to describe in the midrange; it has this mid push that doesn't sound like a mid push. It's in the upper mids and it just makes everything sweeter. The highs are clear and bright but not strident or annoying at all. It chimes great and loves overdrive pedals. Overall it's a great speaker and I'm going to be trying it out with other amps. Heya! I've always been interested in Fanes. Did you, perchance, mean the F70 (of the Ascension series)? Do you have any sound clips? Thanks!
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Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Apr 21, 2022 15:03:32 GMT -7
Very cool thread and great observations, bobro...Here's a curve ball for you. I've run the Z-12 in my Z-Lux combo for years and it's been a great speaker. But I am the type that can't leave well enough alone, so recently I bought my first Fane speaker, an A-70. 70 watts, 100dB sensitivity. It sounds really good in the Z-Lux, similar to the Z-12 but it has something that I struggle to describe in the midrange; it has this mid push that doesn't sound like a mid push. It's in the upper mids and it just makes everything sweeter. The highs are clear and bright but not strident or annoying at all. It chimes great and loves overdrive pedals. Overall it's a great speaker and I'm going to be trying it out with other amps. Heya! I've always been interested in Fanes. Did you, perchance, mean the F70 (of the Ascension series)? Do you have any sound clips? Thanks! OOPS....yes, iit's the F-70. I'm going to go back and edit my post, good catch! No clips yet...
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bobro
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by bobro on Jul 30, 2022 0:37:42 GMT -7
An update for everyone. I have spent 4 months working through different speakers in the Z-Best. Here are the speakers I've worked with: - Celestion G12H 30 watts, 100DB
Bass and treble strong - Celestion G12M Creamback 65 watts, 97DB
Smooth - Celestion A-Type 50 watts, 98DB (Harsh - the doc was spot on with what he's said about this speaker - the highs are really grating, like barbed wire)
- Dr Z Z-12 50 watts, 99DB - rich, reminds me of an alnico speaker
I bought the Z-Best loaded with the G12H and the G12M Creamback. When I got it, the speakers weren't broken in and I thought it sounded boomy on the bass end and blurry, and overwhelmingly loud. I have learned so much since then (in 4 months). Here are the things that have happened: - The speakers are now broken in and sound so much better, smoother.
- I changed the Z-Lux tubes from 6V6s to 5881s. This notched a lot of the bass response down. The amp sounds closer to a Fender, but still like a Fender on steroids.
- I have had time with all the speakers, isolating all of them in a Blues Jr (I use the Blues Jr right now as a 1x12 cabinet for the Z-Lux) except the G12M creamback.
- I realized that the master volume on the Z-Lux allows the amp to be playable at low volumes! Revelation. I usually keep the Volume/Gain at noon and decrease from there if I need to fine tune the lower volume, or to say it a better way, if my wife is looking at me a certain way, I need to lower it even more, and that's when I reach to the Volume/Gain and decrease it from noon to about 9 o'clock.
- The Z-12 sounded good with the G12M in the Z-Best, but when I took it out and put it in the Blues Jr (I use the Blues Jr right now as a 1x12 cabinet for the Z-Lux), Wow!!! What a match. Just that one speaker (Z-12) and the Z-Lux. I now need a 1x12 cabinet. The Blues Jr is made of particle board (or whatever the correct term is) and has a very open back. They say that this material allows the speaker to be heard clearer and I think it's true. There is no added wood tone, and the open back allows the speaker to push naturally without being affected as much by the depth of a back wall.
- I put some acoustic panels inside of the port in the Z-Best and blanketed the back wall of the cabinet with polyester cotton like filler that you find in couches. This, in my opinion, makes the Z-Best easier to work with at home and less boomy.
I ended up going back to the G12H and the G12M Creamback in the Z-Best. It isn't an ideal setup for the Z-Lux. But it sounds amazing with my Marshall Studio Jubilee. It makes that amp sound huge, more like a 100 watt version (I used to have the 100 watt Silver Jubilee, but I like the 20 watt better), so I would imagine it would sound great with a Maz 18, which I will get my hands on soon enough. This speaker configuration gets a smoother overall sound with plenty of bass projection from the G12H. The potential for too much mid high aggression from the G12H is tamed by the smoothness of the Creamback. I know that the DB ratings are 3DBs apart, but this is the best combination of speakers I've come across with the speakers I have in the list above. I have really grown to appreciate and understand the Z-Best and enjoy using it now.
So, in conclusion, I've learned a lot along the way and I wanted to share that knowledge with you guys. The Z-12 in a 1x12 open back cabinet and the Z-Lux sound amazing. Very rich tone, detailed. The highs are more well defined/detailed than a Jensen in my opinion. The Z-12 sounds like a modern American voiced speaker - same character, but better definition, tighter bass. That's where my head is at with the Z-Lux - a 1x12 cab with the Z-12. As a tone hound, I wanted to share one final thought. When I was in my 20's, I was at a water park (Schlitterbahn in New Braunfels, Texas) looking for a tube to ride down on. There were about 30 of them in front of me, all black. Each one seemed to have some sort of bump that wasn't quite what I was looking for. One of the guys that worked at Schlitterbahn watched me as I couldn't decide which tube to take, then walked up and said, with perfect timing, "There is no golden tube!"I think that applies with this crazy chase of tone. I have had enough time now to truly appreciate what the doc has done and I am playing constantly now. Another update. I changed the Z-Best again, this time putting in a Celestion V30, UK version, and a Celestion M (25w) Greenback. They are both 16 ohms. I run them in parallel. This is the best combination I've tried, and leads me back to the idea that the doctor was right yet again about the influence of the V30 in that cabinet. I have had a Marshall 4x12 straight cab with V30's in the 90's and that cab still sounds amazing (my best friend has it in his recording studio in Austin) regardless of what amp is ran through it. I think the greenback's influence works superbly with the Z-Best. It imparts a warm, woody sound. I can feel the V30's bass influence filling in the bottom end, but it isn't as boomy as the G12H 30. And I can hear the mids. I didn't want to use the V30 originally because of the harsh mid range it can impart. But in this cabinet, it fits well. I know the wattage is completely different, but these speakers blend extremely well together. Reminds me of pairing an under wattage Jensen P10R (25w) with a Celestion V10 (now G10 Vintage - 60w) in a '63 Vibroverb reissue I had. That amp sounded amazing with this odd pairing. But in both cases, the speakers compliment each other, and overcome their weaknesses by blending together. In both cases, the lower wattage speakers are famous for not having a solid low end. It's the first configuration I've come across that actually feels comfortable with the Z-Lux. The greenback imparts a little growl. And this combination sounds great with my Marshall Studio Jubilee as well.
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bobro
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by bobro on Oct 10, 2023 7:00:06 GMT -7
OK, I changed the Z Best cabinet again. I was playing out with my Z-Lux a little bit this last summer at some country music festivals and taking a 1x12 cabinet that I got custom made by TT Cabs in Germany to be like the Z 1x12 cabs.I was using a Z-12 in there. I had a Celestion G12 Heritage 30 in my Fender Blues Jr. It has a great sound when I'm playing on the neck pickup. The bass kind of distorts a little, gets a little flappy, for lack of a better word. Hendrix-like. But not blown out floppy like these Fender silver face reissues. So I took all the sound dampening out of the baffle on the Z Best cabinet and put the G12 H on the top and the Z-12 on the bottom, because the Z12 has a punchy, tight sound. And now I play the Z-Lux through this cabinet most of the time. I have the V30 now alone in the TT Cab and the Greenback has made its way back into the Marshall Silver Jubilee Studio combo. I took it out of the studio Jube and replaced it with a Creamback when I was playing a lot with a rock band, to get the amp louder without early breakup, and to have a little more bass for blues rock at higher volume. Now that I'm at home, the Greenback really fits the studio jubilee, and having the V30 in an isolated cab gives me the chance to play both the Z-Lux and the Studio Jube with it.
The Z12 and Celestion G12 Heritage sound great together. And I'm playing at low volumes now. I'm sure it would sound great louder. All these speakers have had time to break in, and they sound so much better now.
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