bobro
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Posts: 35
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Post by bobro on Nov 29, 2021 2:24:11 GMT -7
I am thinking of getting the EMS and had some questions about clean tones and volume. I wanted to know from anyone that has an EMS if it can get great Marshall like clean tones?I've had a few Marshalls, but the one I'm seeking the tone of is a 70's 100watt Marshall JMP I had. It had a pretty good clean sound and a great Texas blues rock sound. It could do all the 70's classic rock and that's what I play the most. I used to play out a lot at the time, doing some regional touring. And I had a couple of Marshall 2061x s. I loved the clean tone on those and the way those broke up. Every nuance of my different guitars was heard through this amp. Unfortunately, I sold my last one when I left the US in early 2020. Can you get clean tones from this amp like a Marshall Plexi?The videos Adam and Euge Valovirta show what this thing can do concerning overdriven tones. They are getting awesome sounds in that territory. And thank you, guys for those demonstrations! Excellent sounds and playing. Love it. One more question: Can you play this amp in an apartment without getting the neighbors upset?I have a Marshall 2525C Silver Jubilee studio 1x12 combo for this reason. I used to have a Marshall Slash Jubilee, which is the 100 watt Jubilee, but it was so loud! It wasn't fun to play at home and I was working a lot at the time, so the only time I could play was at home. I try to keep the DB rating at 80 when I'm playing. I live in a modern apartment in Zurich, Switzerland now. It's constructed well, but it's still an apartment. and the 2525C is really cheap here in Europe. Also, I get that I can attenuate the amp. The attenuator that I want is a Boss Waza Tube Amp Expander, which is over $1k. It would allow me to take my smaller amps and give them higher power when I play out, which I do about once or twice a month. But that puts me at about $4.5k to get this amp, the 2x12 cab and the attenuator. Ouch. Thanks! Bob
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Post by adam on Nov 29, 2021 8:06:58 GMT -7
Cheers!
Clean tones - I've been meaning to show something on that for a long time. I think it's stellar, but don't know if it sounds like your old Marshall. I've had a few "aha" moments with a strat and Ems clean with echo that sounds pretty darn close to the some of the Eric Johnson clean stuff from Tones like Soulful Terrain, Friends, Bristol Shore. I know that's supposed to be old Twins, but boy does it sound just like it. Also note there are some killer clean Robin Trower tones in there too. Lastly, note that you can have a good clean at low volume to way louder than you should ever need to be. And it takes pedals quite incredibly if you want to base your tone around the clean sounds.
Neighbors - this amp can go to earth shattering loud. On the distorted (800) side, it kind of doesn't really fill out the sound until the master is around 10pm. With the preamp gain also around 10pm, there's some pretty magic sounding (to me) cranked old Marshall sounds. With a strat, you be really damn close to some old Hendrix stuff like castles made of sand or wind cries Mary if you play lightly, and more like the heavier Hendrix stuff if you dig in. Even things like Spanish cable magic or manic depression just sort of have that same tone, which I know sounds odd, or say freedom. That's basically the same settings I used on that thing Lizzy thing with the Les Paul if you caught that one (only difference being back down the mid and raise the presence. Old Aerosmith is right there too with either LP or strat. However, even at that 10pm/10pm setting, it is quite loud, like probably over drummer loud unless the drummer is a really loud one. So... I think this amp really benefits from an attenuator when using the 800 side, and the reason I got the Air Brake (which I also think is fantastic).
The tube amp expander - I would stay away based on what I've heard Friedman say. He's says bother he and John Suhr won't warranty the amp with one of those because the load isn't "safe". They are both cool with the Fryette one. Lastly, I do like the idea of just one extra cable with the Z air brake as opposed to that plus another AC line plus more tubes to fail, etc. Seem like people love that one, but the Air Brake works great if you just need attenuation. For your 80db wanted level and the gain side of things, I think an attenuator of some kind would be a must. If you are clean with pedals for dirt, you'd be fine without one. Also, if you were to play with a lot of gain and need to be quiet, the CAZ is hard to beat. I know that's not the question, but I'm just trying to factor in the being quite part.
Price - I think the EMS by itself is a steal right now. The handwired plexi is something like $3800 (if you can even get it), and even the printed circuit board 800 is $3350 now. Air brake isn't really cheap either at 400 or 450 (or whatever it is), but I've found it really useful on a bunch of amps, one in particular that I haven't used for 10 years because it was just so damn loud. Hard pill to swallow, but I'm really happy with it and it has other utility. Cab cost - that just kind of is what it is these days. I usually use the EMS through my greenback Marshall 4x12, but I also really like it in my Z 1x12 open or closed back (currently open) with a greenback. It's a really thick sounding amp and doesn't beg for the extra low end of a 4x12 like some other Marshalls.
The EMS is killer, but I'd also say it's a "big boy" amp and not really meant to bedroom level (though you can get there). Might also add that the way I used the amp on the VH sample vid and also the way Euge had it set is in that bone crushing loud territory without attenuation. I did that video because there's sort of another sound lurking in that amp when it's really pushed like that. Also, for that Beano/Clapton type sample, I've since found that if I turn it up even more, it basically completely nails that sound, whereas my video sample wasn't quite there, but also note that was live in the room with the drummer, and it was already too loud. I got the attenuator after making that video.
Good luck, and if you have any other questions, I'd be glad to try and help.
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bobro
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by bobro on Nov 29, 2021 13:26:18 GMT -7
Man, thanks Adam. Yeah, I saw both those videos and more of your vids on Dr. Z's site. Excellent. The first concert I went to was Nazareth and Thin Lizzy. I love Thin Lizzy's guitar tones. That's the kind of stuff I play more than anything, in that 70's rock zone - Aerosmith, Led Zeppelin, ACDC. Jimmy Page, Eddie VH and Jimi Hendrix are my top 3 favorites. Sometimes Iron Maiden and 80's metal. I think I need this amp. Thanks for telling me about the Air Brake, too. I'm glad you filled me in on that because the Boss TAE is kind of expensive.
I subscribed to your YouTube channel a couple of weeks ago. You absolutely are nailing the sounds of the bands you're covering with that EMS. Sounds really nice. I know where one of these amps is so I'm going to try to line it out tomorrow. Thanks, man!
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Post by Norrin Radd on Nov 30, 2021 8:21:12 GMT -7
One thing a lot of guitar players tend to forget is that the magic tones that all of us are looking for involve pushing a lot of air through the speakers. That means volume. No level of attenuation will give you the same feel and tone as when an amp is at volume. It’s just physically impossible. If you want to play at lower volume levels, there are always going to be compromises to the tone, that’s just a matter of physics. Honestly, for “bedroom level” playing I’ve resorted to a par of Boss Waza Air headphones - love them! Otherwise, I play with volume, and if the neighbors don’t like it, well I’m never playing that late at night anyway, so they can just suck it!
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Post by GuitarZ on Nov 30, 2021 15:57:26 GMT -7
I'm a UA Ox and AirBrake owner. I would argue the AirBrake is built more for live vs apartment playing. The UA Ox, attenuator-wise, gets you to lower playing volumes, but it's as stated above in that it's quiet, but doesn't get you the feel. I'm comfortable with either for live playing out to tame my live amp.
Now, when I pop my headphones with the UA Ox, it feels real. I can dial my Z amp up as loud as I want, and the tone is great. To me, the secret is with the room mics giving you that feel. However, the UA Ox isn't cheap.
I hadn't heard of the Boss Waza Air headphones until today. They look interesting. But, if you want to mess with your Z's, I'd suggest looking into something like the UA Ox or some of the other IR boxes with very good loads. The other IR boxes also allow you to mix a room mic sound to get the feel and cost less vs the Ox. Good Luck!
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Post by GuitarZ on Nov 30, 2021 16:24:42 GMT -7
You know, here's what we all need for home. Go UA Ox, speaker IRs with load, or the Boss Waza headphones, and add in a nice 'tactile' seat like the one made by my friend's company Aviom ( Aviom Boom) so you can feel your Axe & Amp. I'm still waiting for someone to invent a fan device to go along with the tactile seats so you can feel your jeans flapping like you were standing in front of a few Marshall stacks.
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Post by adam on Nov 30, 2021 18:04:32 GMT -7
bobro - Let us know how you encounter with the amp goes. I love the amp, it has just a myriad of Marshall tones lurking within and has that whatever the hell Z does to these things going for it too.
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Post by adam on Nov 30, 2021 18:18:50 GMT -7
One thing a lot of guitar players tend to forget is that the magic tones that all of us are looking for involve pushing a lot of air through the speakers. That means volume. No level of attenuation will give you the same feel and tone as when an amp is at volume. It’s just physically impossible. If you want to play at lower volume levels, there are always going to be compromises to the tone, that’s just a matter of physics. Honestly, for “bedroom level” playing I’ve resorted to a par of Boss Waza Air headphones - love them! Otherwise, I play with volume, and if the neighbors don’t like it, well I’m never playing that late at night anyway, so they can just suck it! I do plugins in headphones a lot too. Great that we have that, but it's not like a real amp and it sets me back a bit too. The volume and attenuator thing... we all know the Flether-Munsen eq curve thing, but I saw something yesterday that made some sense to me. Basically we don't hear linearly with volume. For instance, if you attenuate something and let's say the amp goes from 80 to 83 db, that same change of 3 db when it's at 90db base is going to have a lot more impact on our impression of that sound, like that 3db difference is now more like 5db in perception. It made some sense to me. For me, I've done lots of tests recording with the attenuator down and mic pre louder, and the opposite, amp loud and mic pre down, and I'll be damned if it isn't basically the same recorded tone when listening back. There's lots of test of people matching the recorded tones when volume matched too and it's basically the same exact sound. Not that it feels or sounds like that in the room, but if you try to be somewhat scientific and objective about it, it's a pretty interesting comparison. The sheer volume thing to me is mostly sustain and harmonic feedback mixed in the sustain. Sometimes lighting up the room or cab can be detrimental in the recorded tone too. Just my 2-cent obersvations.
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Post by Norrin Radd on Nov 30, 2021 20:28:20 GMT -7
One thing a lot of guitar players tend to forget is that the magic tones that all of us are looking for involve pushing a lot of air through the speakers. That means volume. No level of attenuation will give you the same feel and tone as when an amp is at volume. It’s just physically impossible. If you want to play at lower volume levels, there are always going to be compromises to the tone, that’s just a matter of physics. Honestly, for “bedroom level” playing I’ve resorted to a par of Boss Waza Air headphones - love them! Otherwise, I play with volume, and if the neighbors don’t like it, well I’m never playing that late at night anyway, so they can just suck it! I do plugins in headphones a lot too. Great that we have that, but it's not like a real amp and it sets me back a bit too. The volume and attenuator thing... we all know the Flether-Munsen eq curve thing, but I saw something yesterday that made some sense to me. Basically we don't hear linearly with volume. For instance, if you attenuate something and let's say the amp goes from 80 to 83 db, that same change of 3 db when it's at 90db base is going to have a lot more impact on our impression of that sound, like that 3db difference is now more like 5db in perception. It made some sense to me. For me, I've done lots of tests recording with the attenuator down and mic pre louder, and the opposite, amp loud and mic pre down, and I'll be damned if it isn't basically the same recorded tone when listening back. There's lots of test of people matching the recorded tones when volume matched too and it's basically the same exact sound. Not that it feels or sounds like that in the room, but if you try to be somewhat scientific and objective about it, it's a pretty interesting comparison. The sheer volume thing to me is mostly sustain and harmonic feedback mixed in the sustain. Sometimes lighting up the room or cab can be detrimental in the recorded tone too. Just my 2-cent obersvations. While everything you state here is accurate, it all mostly refers to the recorded guitar tone. For me, that tone is a million billion miles away from my “live” tone. When I’m playing live (or just for me) the amp is as much of an instrument as is the guitar (and so is my delay pedal- but I digress) and much like lightly strumming vs. thrashing produces vastly different tones and experiences (physical and aural), the same is true (IMO) of changing the dynamics on the amp. More volume doesn’t always = better tone. BUT, when someone asks about attenuation and getting that “cranked tone at bedroom levels”, to me that’s just a fantasy that’s scientifically impossible to achieve. It doesn’t truly exist. It’s like saying: “I’d like to get the sensation of driving 200 mph but at 55 mph.” When I view the proposition like that, it just seems equally nonsensical to me. YMMV
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bobro
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by bobro on Dec 2, 2021 16:35:03 GMT -7
bobro - Let us know how you encounter with the amp goes. I love the amp, it has just a myriad of Marshall tones lurking within and has that whatever the hell Z does to these things going for it too. I ended up going with the Z-Lux for now. I have a Marshall 2525C Silver Jubilee Studio that covers some Marshall territory. I got the head and a Z-Best cab with a creamback and a Z-eminence. I play at churches around Zürich and play really clean most of the time, so I decided to get the Fender style first. I will get another Z, probably next year or so. They are hard to get your hands on out here in Europe.
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Post by Norrin Radd on Dec 2, 2021 21:28:02 GMT -7
bobro - Let us know how you encounter with the amp goes. I love the amp, it has just a myriad of Marshall tones lurking within and has that whatever the hell Z does to these things going for it too. I ended up going with the Z-Lux for now. I have a Marshall 2525C Silver Jubilee Studio that covers some Marshall territory. I got the head and a Z-Best cab with a creamback and a Z-eminence. I play at churches around Zürich and play really clean most of the time, so I decided to get the Fender style first. I will get another Z, probably next year or so. They are hard to get your hands on out here in Europe. Oh congrats! The Z Lux is an incredible amp. Next up on my list as well. They sound…amaZing!
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Post by DocMartin on Dec 6, 2021 21:00:40 GMT -7
I know I’m late and you already went with the Z-Lux, but just in case anyone else is wondering, I have the EMS head and cab, thanks to the info Adam gave me when I was deciding between the EMS and Caz-45, and I can say that the cleans are amazing with the EMS. Adam’s description is perfect and very accurate. The clean tones on the JTM 45 setting, even the Jmp settings, and just beautiful. This amp is an incredible deal, and Adam is right, it’s a steal at its current price. If anyone is even remotely interested in the this amp, just get it and thank us later.
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bobro
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by bobro on Dec 12, 2021 10:33:34 GMT -7
I know I’m late and you already went with the Z-Lux, but just in case anyone else is wondering, I have the EMS head and cab, thanks to the info Adam gave me when I was deciding between the EMS and Caz-45, and I can say that the cleans are amazing with the EMS. Adam’s description is perfect and very accurate. The clean tones on the JTM 45 setting, even the Jmp settings, and just beautiful. This amp is an incredible deal, and Adam is right, it’s a steal at its current price. If anyone is even remotely interested in the this amp, just get it and thank us later. Thanks. I’m sure I will get an EMS as well. What I might need now is a place to play where I can crank the Z’s. Unfortunately I live in an apartment in Europe like most people out here. I try to play nice songs to keep the neighbors happy so they don’t call the cops.
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Post by digglez on Mar 4, 2022 22:37:47 GMT -7
So if one was looking for a Marshall-esq amp specifically for its clean > edge of breakup tones (Jimi, Frusciante) and not interested in the higher gain / heavier tones is the EMS enough to make this a better choice than other "Marshall clones" for the same $ range? I have a Z-plus & freakin' love it so much...but that Little Wing / Fela's rooster / Under the Bridge tone has a special tone that remains elusive after trying MIB pedals like the DLS III, DLS III Red, or the Kingsley Constable.
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Post by adam on Mar 5, 2022 5:39:36 GMT -7
...but that Little Wing / Fela's rooster / Under the Bridge tone has a special tone that remains elusive after trying MIB pedals like the DLS III, DLS III Red, or the Kingsley Constable. I kind of want to say the Remedy (pretty loud) or Maz 38 would get you closer than the EMS. No knock on the EMS, it's just all the Marshall type tones, which kind of sound the same, are really miles apart. EMS with one of those Origin dual comps would probably get closer than just the amp itself. I'd really have to mess with the amps to figure it out, and one day one might seem right and the next day, another one would. So take it all with a grain of salt. Couple more thoughts... Under the bridge as I hear it. 2 guitars throughout. Intro sounds like DI guitar completely squashed by a compressor or 2. When the vocal comes in, it starts to sound like amps, pretty clean, and still really smashed with compression. Next verse sounds like different amp setting, more gain, they rolled off a ton of lows, and still smashed. That tone fits great with the bass when it comes in. So... you might kind of hear it as one sound, but maybe that's just the player and guitar being the constant part. Little wing - lots of compression on there. You'll never really get that type of recorded sound straight out of the amp in my opinion, and a compressor pedal isn't going to quite do what the outboard/post compressor is doing to the signal. I don't know what's going on with that recording, but it almost sounds double tracked but isn't (I don't think), and different parts of the riff seem to come out of either left or right speaker and certain times, like maybe 2 mics in stereo, maybe one on a Leslie. Right before the drums, sounds like a lot of Leslie. Who knows what's going on with that one. Maybe it is double tracked, but only certain parts are double tracked, or maybe only certain parts are brought up in volume with the double track. Maz 38 - probably sounds odd to mention it, but that amp has a big, huge and glorious clean sound with a little compression and character kind of built in. The other amps like Ems or remedy are less compressed in my opinion.
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Post by nicholas on Mar 5, 2022 6:20:18 GMT -7
One thing a lot of guitar players tend to forget is that the magic tones that all of us are looking for involve pushing a lot of air through the speakers. That means volume. No level of attenuation will give you the same feel and tone as when an amp is at volume. It’s just physically impossible. If you want to play at lower volume levels, there are always going to be compromises to the tone, that’s just a matter of physics. Honestly, for “bedroom level” playing I’ve resorted to a par of Boss Waza Air headphones - love them! Otherwise, I play with volume, and if the neighbors don’t like it, well I’m never playing that late at night anyway, so they can just suck it! I do plugins in headphones a lot too. Great that we have that, but it's not like a real amp and it sets me back a bit too. The volume and attenuator thing... we all know the Flether-Munsen eq curve thing, but I saw something yesterday that made some sense to me. Basically we don't hear linearly with volume. For instance, if you attenuate something and let's say the amp goes from 80 to 83 db, that same change of 3 db when it's at 90db base is going to have a lot more impact on our impression of that sound, like that 3db difference is now more like 5db in perception. It made some sense to me. For me, I've done lots of tests recording with the attenuator down and mic pre louder, and the opposite, amp loud and mic pre down, and I'll be damned if it isn't basically the same recorded tone when listening back. There's lots of test of people matching the recorded tones when volume matched too and it's basically the same exact sound. Not that it feels or sounds like that in the room, but if you try to be somewhat scientific and objective about it, it's a pretty interesting comparison. The sheer volume thing to me is mostly sustain and harmonic feedback mixed in the sustain. Sometimes lighting up the room or cab can be detrimental in the recorded tone too. Just my 2-cent obersvations. This is an interesting conversation. I've noticed the same thing Norrin Radd is talking about regarding attenuation and needing to move some air when using guitar speakers. Some attenuators flat out stink. Some are really good. But either way it just doesn't sound or feel right until it's up to decent volume. At least to me. And what you are saying adam about listening to recordings done at different volumes. I can record something through guitar speakers at a low volume that doesn't sound so good in the room, and also at a cranked volume that does sound good to me. When I listen to the recordings played back on monitors or headphones it sounds pretty much the same both ways. I think alot of it is something to do with guitar speakers themselves and how we hear them. I feel they exaggerate this effect. Not sure if it's the eq curve of them, or something else. But I believe it's mostly them that causes this phenomenon. For instance as an experiment I completely attenuate a MV tube amp with a reactive load and use speaker sims or IR's run into headphones, monitors, or a home stereo. I really can't hear any significant difference in tone no matter where the guitar amps master volume is set. From a sounds good / sounds bad standpoint it sounds pretty much the same regardless of where the MV is set. The interesting part is the FRFR speakers in the headphones, monitors, or home stereo that we are using for the play back sounds the same down to a whisper or when decently loud. I don't notice the effect of needing more volume for the playback to sound right nearly as much as I do when using a real guitar cabinet. To take the guitar amp out of the equasion I flipped this around and ran music from my home stereo into a 412 guitar cabinet just to see if this line of thought worked the other way around. And also just to see what it would sound like. Terrible as expected. What I found interesting is music through the guitar speakers sounded horrible at low volume, but better as volume was increased by the home stereo. Just like it does with a guitar amp. It's interesting to me that the FRFR audio type speakers in stereos, monitors and such don't behave like this. Also for the first time I heard how much guitar speakers actually color and change things. It's significant. I'm fortunate where I don't really have any volume restrictions at home besides hurting my ears. So I typically just use normal speaker cabs decently loud. Attenuators definitely have their place especially with NMV amps. But I am curious on why guitar speakers seem to exhibit this "need volume to sound good", but audio speakers typically don't. It has to be somethimg specific about guitar speakers right?
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Post by adam on Mar 5, 2022 9:31:18 GMT -7
So if one was looking for a Marshall-esq amp specifically for its clean > edge of breakup tones (Jimi, Frusciante) and not interested in the higher gain / heavier tones is the EMS enough to make this a better choice than other "Marshall clones" for the same $ range? I have a Z-plus & freakin' love it so much...but that Little Wing / Fela's rooster / Under the Bridge tone has a special tone that remains elusive after trying MIB pedals like the DLS III, DLS III Red, or the Kingsley Constable. You got me thinking about this so I plugged the strat into the EMS and it kind of sounded like it right away so I made a sample/demo which might help. The sound is a pretty good representation except the recording has a little more woof and maybe a little less high end than it felt in the room, but it's in the ballpark to how it sounds in the room. I mess with the controls a little and also show the 800 side a little with the gain pretty low.
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Post by Jaguarguy (Mike) on Mar 5, 2022 10:42:26 GMT -7
Thanks Adam! I really liked the Hendrix snippets! Thanks for sharing!
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Post by adam on Mar 5, 2022 15:43:07 GMT -7
Thanks Mike. Hopefully it gives someone some more insight into some of the sounds of the amp.
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Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Mar 5, 2022 16:47:36 GMT -7
Sounds really nice, Adam. I really enjoy your posts like this, they inspire me to go back and re-learn old songs that I tried to do years ago and never could get. Great tone. Did you compress this at all, or is it straight in?
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Post by adam on Mar 5, 2022 22:49:04 GMT -7
Thanks Dave! Straight in, no compression. The mic having some distance to the speaker adds some compression in its own way. Forever trying to get the most honest amp sound I can, but it's still really finicky with mic position 1/4" here or there. I should have backed off the mic some more, still too much proximity effect which those mics are really known for. I'll figure this out one of these days.
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