|
Post by feifongwong on Aug 2, 2021 11:15:54 GMT -7
Hi all,
I have two gigs this Friday and Saturday and want to bring my Stang Ray in place of the Z Wreck Jr for a bit more clean headroom. After plugging in the Ray I remembered why I love this amp so much, just such a beautiful clean sound. I bought the amp used last year and have only gigged once with it, but am noticing that after a while of playing, the volume will lower slightly: basically, I need to turn my guitar volume down to tame the loudness when I first turn it on, but then noticed that I turn up my guitar volume and then it's still not as loud as when I first turn it on after about 30 minutes.
Things like this drive me nuts because you can't observe bad power tubes. Anyone else have this? I ordered some more sovteks (I need them by friday and EH's, JJ's were sold out at tubedepot) and am hoping that they'll be here in time for me to test it out before the gigs.
Any advice/thoughts are appreciated. It's been so long since we were able to gig that I have not kept up with amp maintenance, and I really hate throwing out tubes.
Thanks all.
|
|
|
Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Aug 2, 2021 11:29:36 GMT -7
Sure sounds like power tubes to me.
|
|
|
Post by headshrinker (Marc) on Aug 2, 2021 11:34:33 GMT -7
Not to be flip about this, but, if you are playing without hearing protection, it may be your ears going numb from the volume. Another possibility, is that in my experience, EL84s do have a little different sound as they get hot. Generally it's a little warmer and fuller, can't say about volume though.
|
|
|
Post by feifongwong on Aug 2, 2021 11:34:43 GMT -7
Sure sounds like power tubes to me. That's what I think too. I appreciate your time.
|
|
|
Post by feifongwong on Aug 2, 2021 11:37:17 GMT -7
Not to be flip about this, but, if you are playing without hearing protection, it may be your ears going numb from the volume. Another possibility, is that in my experience, EL84s do have a little different sound as they get hot. Generally it's a little warmer and fuller, can't say about volume though. I know what you mean. No hearing protection, amp volume about 8:00 (so very low, loud living room volume, but not deafening). I hate when my ears tell me to spend $60 on new tubes, when it could be my imagination, but better to be safe than sorry I guess...
|
|
|
Post by Ridgeback on Aug 2, 2021 12:45:29 GMT -7
Regardless of the reason for the volume issue it's always a good idea to have a spare set of tubes, especially if you are playing out. Isn't the Wreck Jr an el-84 amp also? You would have spares for both amps. BTW, I agree with you on the Ray's cleans.
|
|
|
Post by feifongwong on Aug 2, 2021 14:37:28 GMT -7
Regardless of the reason for the volume issue it's always a good idea to have a spare set of tubes, especially if you are playing out. Isn't the Wreck Jr an el-84 amp also? You would have spares for both amps. BTW, I agree with you on the Ray's cleans. Good call.
|
|
|
Post by adam on Aug 2, 2021 15:35:30 GMT -7
I'm not sure this applies directly, but a theory none the less.
I noticed when I really crank any amp for a while, in a controlled environment where I'm not affected by the volume, the tone gets warmer and fatter as everything heats up. I've heard more than once from prominent players of where they'll spend a day setting up a sound to record, don't change anything, and it's different when they come in the next day.
Maybe the tone warming up (if that's what it is), makes the amp sound a little quieter. I would think maybe turn up the treble if that's what you are hearing, or the volume, and then I'm guessing the amp is basically going to stay there while it's warm. Just a thought.
|
|
|
Post by Norrin Radd on Aug 2, 2021 20:39:22 GMT -7
At 8:00 the amp is barely breathing. You’re choking that poor thing to death! The Ray comes “alive”, IME around 10:00 on the volume. Let it work or play the Jr would be my advice.
|
|
|
Post by feifongwong on Aug 3, 2021 8:21:10 GMT -7
At 8:00 the amp is barely breathing. You’re choking that poor thing to death! The Ray comes “alive”, IME around 10:00 on the volume. Let it work or play the Jr would be my advice. I totally know what you mean and adds to my wondering if it’s my imagination. When you have a gig coming up, have an amp that is crazy loud, how do you prep for the gig at home? Play at volume in the house? Attenuate at home and full bore at the gig? Unfortunately our house is in a neighborhood so I have to be conscientious of the neighbors. I think after these gigs I’ll send the amp in for the 1/2 power mod so that I can use it the way it should be at home. I’m very excited to crank this thing this weekend. Thanks all for the suggestions.
|
|
|
Post by Ridgeback on Aug 3, 2021 9:26:14 GMT -7
Based on my experience with the half power switch, you don't get the volume drop you might be hoping for. Now if they have one of the good MVs available as a mod for the ray, that would be a different story. Never met an attenuator I liked after the first click. Less efficient and fewer\smaller speakers in a home play cab might be another way to go. YMMV
|
|
|
Post by adam on Aug 3, 2021 15:57:50 GMT -7
Based on my experience with the half power switch, you don't get the volume drop you might be hoping for. Now if they have one of the good MVs available as a mod for the ray, that would be a different story. Never met an attenuator I liked after the first click. Less efficient and fewer\smaller speakers in a home play cab might be another way to go. YMMV A couple observations on the lowering volume thing... Trace Elliot Speed Twin (4 EL34's). Could switch pentode to triode, just kind of dulls the sound, not really any volume difference. Seymour Duncan Convertible (4 el34's I think), same as above. Some Boogie combo with pentode/triode, everything sounded like crap so doesn't matter. Splawn Quickrod - 1/2 power switch shutting off the 2 outside el34's. Not really any volume difference, but looses oomph in the low end. MAZ38 1/2 power switch - decreases the volume significantly without really changing the tone. I was surprised by this based on my previous amps. Attenuator, I really think the Brakelite does a great job. I can notch my Splawn down a lot and it still sounds great, as well as the MAZ 18 when on full tilt. I'm glad I have it and have tried a couple others that I hated.
|
|
|
Post by feifongwong on Aug 5, 2021 22:43:01 GMT -7
Weird update:
The spare tubes won’t be here until Saturday and we play tomorrow evening. I found a quad of EH el84s that I bought as spares last year and had forgotten them. I put them in the Stang Ray and back the glory I remember.
Then after playing for about 10 minutes at 10:00 volume with the brake lite on the 2nd click, fizz fizz, quickly decreasing volume, then almost no sound at all. Turn amp around and the two last el84s are red plating and there’s a burning smell. Crap. Turn amp off and let cool.
Played “find the smell” for a bit, nothing in the amp, and it was coming from the brake lite. Great. Did I damage the brake lite?
It’s 10:00pm and gig is tomorrow. Removed the brake and checked tube seating. Turned back on. Glory again, but I watched the tubes and again after about 7 mins, same two red plating.
Finally, I found two 6n14n’s and two 6n14n-eb’ (I think) and put one pair in the outer sockets and the other pair in the inner two sockets. Turned on, glory again. Played for 20 mins or so, no red plating.
I shut her down and am going to bed. I will probably just bring the Wreck Jr to the gig with my TA15 as a backup. I have no other quads to try. I really wanted to bring the Stang Ray tomorrow but I’m not sure I want to risk it and am worried about a mismatched quad going for 3 hours in 80 degree heat,
What would you do in my shoes? Stang Ray as I leave it tonight, or wreck Jr (or Stang Ray and wreck jr as the backup?
Seriously, the first world problems are not lost on me here. Just looking forward to some loud fun and am a bit nervous which takes the fun out of it.
|
|
|
Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Aug 6, 2021 5:32:28 GMT -7
I suspect zero damage to your gear. If those tubes were red plating to the point of failure, that’s what you were smelling. It’s a different smell than burning components. You’ll be fine as long as the replacement tubes last. Mismatched tubes will run okay if they aren’t humming too terribly. If its not humming, you may have an “accidental match” or close enough.
|
|
|
Post by Righty on Aug 6, 2021 8:42:31 GMT -7
Agree with Todd. Had the exact same thing as you described happen to my SR. For a while I was convinced something was wrong with the amp. I was doing some routine maintenance (de-oxit jacks and tube sockets) and cleaning. Fired the amp up and a short time later a couple of el84's red plated. Installed my backup set and all was fine. The backup set of JJ's had 40 or 50 hours on them so decided to order some 6n14n's from Perry here on the forum and a whole complete set for the Ray from one of the online sellers. In the meantime, while waiting for my tube order, I blew a fuse. Replaced the fuse. Immediately blew another. Bad rectifier. Now I'm seriously concerned. Even wondered how I could possible induce these problems from simply cleaning sockets and jacks.
New tubes arrive but I'm nervous about possibly damaging the 6n14n's so along with fresh preamp and rectifier I install a mismatched quad of JJ's. Fire it up and all is well! I left that amp on for 6 or 8 hours with no problems. Sounded pretty good. Installed the 6n14n's the next day. All goodness.
Weird stuff can happen with tubes... My guess is you should be fine if as Todd says you're not hearing any humming or odd noises.
|
|
|
Post by feifongwong on Aug 6, 2021 9:00:28 GMT -7
Agree with Todd. Had the exact same thing as you described happen to my SR. For a while I was convinced something was wrong with the amp. I was doing some routine maintenance (de-oxit jacks and tube sockets) and cleaning. Fired the amp up and a short time later a couple of el84's red plated. Installed my backup set and all was fine. The backup set of JJ's had 40 or 50 hours on them so decided to order some 6n14n's from Perry here on the forum and a whole complete set for the Ray from one of the online sellers. In the meantime, while waiting for my tube order, I blew a fuse. Replaced the fuse. Immediately blew another. Bad rectifier. Now I'm seriously concerned. Even wondered how I could possible induce these problems from simply cleaning sockets and jacks. New tubes arrive but I'm nervous about possibly damaging the 6n14n's so along with fresh preamp and rectifier I install a mismatched quad of JJ's. Fire it up and all is well! I left that amp on for 6 or 8 hours with no problems. Sounded pretty good. Installed the 6n14n's the next day. All goodness. Weird stuff can happen with tubes... My guess is you should be fine if as Todd says you're not hearing any humming or odd noises. Thanks guys. I am a worrier so I got pretty poor sleep last night thinking about what to do. I am going to bring the Ray with the Wreck Jr. as a backup (or hook up my ABY box, cuz why not I guess? It's our county fair so the stage is nice and big.) I really wanted to order the 6n14n's from Perry, but opted to go with tube depot thinking they'd get here faster (shame on me: tube depot sent Monday but they don't arrive until Saturday). I bet Perry would've gotten them here before today. Live and learn. I can be such a set-it-and-forget-it kind of guy. Serves me right. Thanks again for the reassurance. The Brakelite still smells "burnt" somehow. I don't have time to open it up today, but when I do, anything I should look out for? Ever heard of an amp killing an attenuator?
|
|
|
Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Aug 6, 2021 10:27:57 GMT -7
The Breaklite is rated at 45W and The Ray is 30W. The resistor inside the Breaklite may have heated up at some point in its past and given off some smell, but unless it somehow burned open it's fine. You'd know if it was an open circuit because you wouldn't hear anything coming out of the speaker. Rock on and have a great time this weekend.
|
|
|
Post by feifongwong on Aug 6, 2021 11:08:28 GMT -7
The Breaklite is rated at 45W and The Ray is 30W. The resistor inside the Breaklite may have heated up at some point in its past and given off some smell, but unless it somehow burned open it's fine. You'd know if it was an open circuit because you wouldn't hear anything coming out of the speaker. Rock on and have a great time this weekend. Will do!
|
|
|
Post by feifongwong on Aug 7, 2021 23:32:41 GMT -7
Well, another weird update:
Gigged Friday for 3 hours with the mismatched 6n14n set and no issues. Great gig, tons of fun, no need to use the Wreck Jr.
The sovtek el84s arrived from tubedepot and plugged them in, played 20 mins, no prob.
Played tonight’s gig, 7pm to 10pm. Same setup with the Ray with and the Wreck Jr as a backup. Standby switch during the two breaks. Halfway thru the third set in the middle of a song: fizz fizz, no sound. Look thru the back mesh panel: sovteks in V5 and V6 are glowing bright red and another burning smell (and it was an outdoor gig). Scary.
Shut her down and plugged into the wreck jr and finished the set. I will probably call and bug Don on Monday. So frustrating (yes, first world problems). I’ll open the chassis tonight and look for an overheated resistor but I’m out of ideas. It’s just weird that it’s the same two tube sockets.
So to sum up: Amp came with mullards, volume started lowering slightly after a while. Stuck EH’s in, red plate v5 and v6 after 10 mins. Stuck mismatched 6n14n set in, made it thru 3 hour gig. Stuck matched sovteks in, made it thru 2.5 hours, then v5 and v6 red plate.
We have a bunch more gigs coming up (state fair, etc.) and I really want to use the Ray since the other guitarist uses a twin on 8 every gig and the Ray is the only amp that stands up to it (cleanly)
Thanks and whine (and wine) session over.
|
|
|
Post by iluvpunz on Aug 8, 2021 6:15:15 GMT -7
Have you cleaned your potentiometers recently? I had a similar problem a while back, and it came down to a dirty volume pot. Lots of gigs and a bit older amp, the tone was fading and getting fizzy after the amp heated up and was played for a couple of sets. It eventually completely cut out. After thinking it was a blown speaker or bad tubes and changing both, it came down to oxidation in the volume pot. I pulled the chassis and cleaned all of the pots with contact cleaner and thoroughly exercised them through full travel the and problem has gone away. If you tend to leave your settings the same most of the time oxidation or dust on the contacts inside your pots could be the problem.
|
|
|
Post by feifongwong on Aug 8, 2021 9:31:39 GMT -7
Have you cleaned your potentiometers recently? I had a similar problem a while back, and it came down to a dirty volume pot. Lots of gigs and a bit older amp, the tone was fading and getting fizzy after the amp heated up and was played for a couple of sets. It eventually completely cut out. After thinking it was a blown speaker or bad tubes and changing both, it came down to oxidation in the volume pot. I pulled the chassis and cleaned all of the pots with contact cleaner and thoroughly exercised them through full travel the and problem has gone away. If you tend to leave your settings the same most of the time oxidation or dust on the contacts inside your pots could be the problem. Yes, I cleaned them a month or so ago. No scratchiness or anything unusual there.
|
|