|
Post by nicholas on Jan 30, 2019 21:48:31 GMT -7
So I just got done setting up my Les Paul. Pretty straight forward. I like .11 neck relief at the 8th and action at 4/64th treble 6/64th bass side measured on the 12th. Needed a little truss rod tweak. No biggie. So with it all said and done and intonation set my last step is always to check if the strings are touching the backside of the bridge at all.
All I've ever done is make sure I can slide a feeler shim between the bridge backside and string. As long as it's not touching, I've always called it good.
Roscoe's post about his bigsby guitar and the break over angles got me thinking. Is there a particular angle I should be using? I haven't ever had any tuning issues or anything. I do remember years ago messing around with stop bar height and the strings feel looser with it higher. But I've never felt I needed a LP to feel looser so i just crank em down to the body. Then raise it, if need be, until I have some form of clearance between the string and bridge.
Is there a better method?
|
|
|
Post by Andy 67 on Jan 31, 2019 11:23:27 GMT -7
I always have set the stoptail in complete contact with the top, and I wrap the strings around the stoptail. I’ve had no issues regarding buzzing whatsoever, and I think my guitars sound better that way. Tons of tone!!
|
|
|
Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Jan 31, 2019 16:55:38 GMT -7
I really like the Faber locking tailpiece. It comes with new screws that fit the existing threaded inserts in the body, and three different size spacers which let you set the tailpiece height wherever you like it best and then lock it down. Makes it nice when changing strings, it stays on the guitar. It also seems to sound a little livelier. I usually set my Les Pauls up with just about 1/16" to 3/32" relief at the string/bridge point. You can also put enough spacers under the tailpiece so that it's just like top wrapping, except the tailpiece is locked to your guitar top. It loosens up the tension on the bridge a bit and the guitar strings feel slinkier and bend better.
|
|
|
Post by digs57 on Jan 31, 2019 18:00:43 GMT -7
This is the issue I went through with new traditional...the headstock degree wouldn't allow me to set my tail piece lower to the body without just crushing the bridge...my only alternative without living with the tailpeice jacked skyhigh was to wrap...which does give me correct 17 degree break angle (same as headstock)...I am using daddario 11's which have more slinky feel than ghs...but has right breakangle im done...I hand tightend tail piece a scoosh...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 18:26:39 GMT -7
I’m anti top wrap. I usually put the tailpiece as low as it ca go with out the strings touching the back side of the bridge. Top wrap just bugs me aesthetically.
|
|
|
Post by nicholas on Feb 1, 2019 13:08:41 GMT -7
I tried the top wrap years ago. I didn't like it. I couldn't get the stop bar down far enough to get good tension. I suppose it depends what you are starting out with as far as height. I also remember feeling the prickelies from the string ends.
I was mostly wondering if there was an angle that should be followed. I thought I read once it should be the same as the angle over the nut. But not sure I remember that right.
|
|
|
Post by nicholas on Feb 1, 2019 13:31:31 GMT -7
.... It comes with new screws that fit the existing threaded inserts in the body, and three different size spacers which let you set the tailpiece height wherever you like it best and then lock it down. Makes it nice when changing strings, it stays on the guitar... I like the idea of the shims to keep the studs put. I was just reading an article by Dan Erlewine. To keep the stop bar studs from moving he installs an allen head seat screw first into the hole at the correct depth. Then when threading in the stud it stops at the right height and is locked down. I might give it a try next time I change strings.
|
|
|
Post by digs57 on Feb 1, 2019 15:32:59 GMT -7
The picture is "correct" break angle...I would never get that without wrapin...show us your project if you proceed.
|
|
|
Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Feb 1, 2019 17:47:08 GMT -7
It's kind of hard to see, but under the tailpiece are two gold spacers. The Faber tailpiece comes with 6 different sizes so you can set the height where you want it, then tighten it down and it stays locked to the top of the guitar. Very cool. Now my string angle is equal to the angle at the nut, and the strings are easier to bend.
|
|
|
Post by nicholas on Feb 1, 2019 18:32:43 GMT -7
I picked up some of the 5/16-24 allen head set screws from the local hardware and gave it a quick try on my 339. Seems to work great. I'll play around with this some more and report back. I took a few pictures. I did find the info I was looking for at stew mac. It says " A good string angle from the back of the saddle to the stop tailpiece is in the range of 13-17 degrees. Some players prefer a shallower angle." So I measured the angle on both my LP Customs. On both of them the stop bar is screwed all the way down. I can fit an index card folded in half between the string and back of the bridge. The steepest angle is on the wound E (because that side of the bridge is higher) It's 15° on my black one, and 17° on my white one. Think I'll just leave well enough alone on those two if my OCD doesn't get the best of me
|
|
|
Post by digs57 on Feb 1, 2019 21:14:51 GMT -7
It's kind of hard to see, but under the tailpiece are two gold spacers. The Faber tailpiece comes with 6 different sizes so you can set the height where you want it, then tighten it down and it stays locked to the top of the guitar. Very cool. Now my string angle is equal to the angle at the nut, and the strings are easier to bend.
Nice dave gives me hope that I might be able to go back to un wrap so I can get a more custom tension,would have to have up like your setting as well...wrap can be a pita to restring as well...like what what im seeing here guys...who would ever think that a good break angle would be a thing of beauty...
|
|
|
Post by nicholas on Feb 2, 2019 10:24:40 GMT -7
This has been really interesting! Funny all these years and I've never really stopped to think much about break over angle. So today I went back and looked at my guitars. As I mentioned I had always just tightened the stop bar down until there was a gap between the string and tailpiece. If it ended up all the way down, cool. If not I'd raise it until there was a gap. Done. Well.... The angle gauge I used to measure is for Steel fab work and a bit big for a guitar. It doesn't really fit and the measurements I took yesterday and posted about were incorrect. The angle with the stop bar fully tightened down (no string contact), is MUCH steeper. It's actually around 26°. That's nearly double the range I found from StewMac of 13-17. So to make this easier, I sacrificed an allen wrench that earned a new job. I bent it to 13°. This fits on the bridge nice and doesn't hit the stop bar like my angle gauge did. I figured I'd start with the shallower 13° measurement as that will be the highest the stop bar will need to go. It should also make the most dramatic difference. If there is one. Also I did my 339 first as I figured any tone difference might stand out more on the semi-hollow. This us what I'm starting with. The stop bar fully down. About 1/16" gap between the strings and back of the bridge. These are the 5/16 X 24 set screws I got at the hardware store. They were .63 cents each. I measured the depth of the threaded insert and it was deep enough to accommodate both the set screw, and stud with it fully inserted. So this would work even if i just needed a little bit of raise. The set screw will go in first, and set to the correct depth, then insert the stud. Like this. The quickest way I found to do this is with the guitar fully set up, adjust the stop bar to the desired height using my bent allen wrench as a template. I just set the wrench on the string and raise the bar until it matches. I did it on both E strings. Then I measured the gap between the body and shoulder of the stud so I can repeat the depth when I insert the set screws. Then I slackened the strings, removed the stop bar / studs and installed the set screws. All and all it came out well. It took a little fiddling to get just right. I did like how I can set each side exactly where I want it and get the break angle the same on all the strings. Also as far as tone, it should be the same. Even though the studs are raised up, they are fully bottomed out on the set screw.
|
|
|
Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Feb 2, 2019 11:02:03 GMT -7
Curious to know how important it is for the strings to fully clear the back of the bridge. This can be especially challenging with a Nashville style as they are much wider than an ABR. Does any difference manifest itself in sustain, tone, does it collapse the bridge faster? Just wondering. I set mine up to clear, unless due to intonation it requires the tailpiece to be higher than I’d like, in which case I tighten it down and the strings no longer clear. I don’t notice a difference in tone, sometimes string tension but that’s it.
|
|
|
Post by nicholas on Feb 2, 2019 11:58:33 GMT -7
Curious to know how important it is for the strings to fully clear the back of the bridge. This can be especially challenging with a Nashville style as they are much wider than an ABR. Does any difference manifest itself in sustain, tone, does it collapse the bridge faster? Just wondering. I set mine up to clear, unless due to intonation it requires the tailpiece to be higher than I’d like, in which case I tighten it down and the strings no longer clear. I don’t notice a difference in tone, sometimes string tension but that’s it. Hopefully more knowledgeable guys will answer. It's a good question. The way I understand it, the string should only touch the saddle. Not the bridge. Raise the stop tail until it does. As far as bridge collapse AFAIK just by the string touching the bridge won't cause collapse. But too steep an angle, (like how I've always had my guitars) will put much more pressure on it and eventually collapse.
|
|
|
Post by nicholas on Feb 2, 2019 14:30:59 GMT -7
^ to add, So I just did the same procedure to my Les Paul's. This is a pic of Old Ugly's bridge. It's an older guitar. It's been set up the same way for a long time. But I'm pretty sure the bridge is flat because of having the stop bar too low. I'm going to see if I can give it a new radius. But maybe I should just order a new one. This explains why it's been playing funky. To be honest, I had always read that if you raised your stop bar up it would wreck the tone. So I always kept it as low as possible. That made them stiffer to play, and you can see what it did to my bridge. So I'm working on setting up all my Gibsons with the stop bar reasonably close to the specified angle. I can say that the string tension is completely different. So much so that I've changed from 9's to 10's to keep the feel the same. As far as any tone difference, I think they actually sound better. With or without the set screws.
|
|
|
Post by digs57 on Feb 2, 2019 15:18:14 GMT -7
Curious to know how important it is for the strings to fully clear the back of the bridge. This can be especially challenging with a Nashville style as they are much wider than an ABR. Does any difference manifest itself in sustain, tone, does it collapse the bridge faster? Just wondering. I set mine up to clear, unless due to intonation it requires the tailpiece to be higher than I’d like, in which case I tighten it down and the strings no longer clear. I don’t notice a difference in tone, sometimes string tension but that’s it. Hopefully more knowledgeable guys will answer. It's a good question. The way I understand it, the string should only touch the saddle. Not the bridge. Raise the stop tail until it does. As far as bridge collapse AFAIK just by the string touching the bridge won't cause collapse. But too steep an angle, (like how I've always had my guitars) will put much more pressure on it and eventually collapse. THIS is good knowledge!!!
|
|
|
Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Feb 3, 2019 7:11:07 GMT -7
.... It comes with new screws that fit the existing threaded inserts in the body, and three different size spacers which let you set the tailpiece height wherever you like it best and then lock it down. Makes it nice when changing strings, it stays on the guitar... I like the idea of the shims to keep the studs put. I was just reading an article by Dan Erlewine. To keep the stop bar studs from moving he installs an allen head seat screw first into the hole at the correct depth. Then when threading in the stud it stops at the right height and is locked down. I might give it a try next time I change strings. Dan Erlewine's method is cool for locking the studs in place. It's one of those "Why didn't I think of that?" things, but what I like about the Faber system is that the spacers go on the studs themselves. Then you screw them down and the new studs lock the tailpiece in place on the guitar. You can change the strings without worrying about the tailpiece falling off, which is cool. It also makes a more secure connection to the guitar body, which may or may not help the tone. It can't hurt. I changed the tailpiece on my new 50th Anniversary 1968 LP Custom for two reasons. One, it does stay locked in place for string changes, no worries about dinging my new baby when I'm in a hurry changing strings. And two, I didn't like the "relic" worn gold tailpiece that came with it. I got the Faber machined aluminum one that's nicely gold plated. Looks great, and the whole thing only cost about $80 with a 20% off sale. I really like the Faber stuff, it's beautifully made.
|
|
|
Post by Christopher on Feb 3, 2019 7:33:09 GMT -7
I have been following this thread. I don't care to have my tailpiece studs elevated at all. For me it's a matter of the tension always pulling on the stop bar and the stress that's put on those bolts when raised. I prefer everything tight to the top even if the lower strings ride the backside of the bridge. All that vibration carries to the body of the guitar both through the tailpiece and bridge so I don't see any harm in that. Also, I don't care for top wrapping. I think it looks like your LP is set up wrong and it's not clean. If it's a wraptail, no problem it was designed that way. I also don't like the way it marrs the finish on the tailpiece.
|
|
|
Post by nicholas on Feb 3, 2019 10:02:21 GMT -7
I like the idea of the shims to keep the studs put. I was just reading an article by Dan Erlewine. To keep the stop bar studs from moving he installs an allen head seat screw first into the hole at the correct depth. Then when threading in the stud it stops at the right height and is locked down. I might give it a try next time I change strings. Dan Erlewine's method is cool for locking the studs in place. It's one of those "Why didn't I think of that?" things, but what I like about the Faber system is that the spacers go on the studs themselves. Then you screw them down and the new studs lock the tailpiece in place on the guitar. You can change the strings without worrying about the tailpiece falling off, which is cool. It also makes a more secure connection to the guitar body, which may or may not help the tone. It can't hurt. I changed the tailpiece on my new 50th Anniversary 1968 LP Custom for two reasons. One, it does stay locked in place for string changes, no worries about dinging my new baby when I'm in a hurry changing strings. And two, I didn't like the "relic" worn gold tailpiece that came with it. I got the Faber machined aluminum one that's nicely gold plated. Looks great, and the whole thing only cost about $80 with a 20% off sale. I really like the Faber stuff, it's beautifully made.
Yeah, I looked into the Faber unit you're talking about. I think that would be alot simpler than the set screws. I found the depth of the bridge anchors in my old LP aren't as deep as the 339. So for the set screws to work in that guitar I had to machine them down. Do you remember how many and what size shims came with it?
|
|
|
Post by nicholas on Feb 3, 2019 10:40:21 GMT -7
I have been following this thread. I don't care to have my tailpiece studs elevated at all. For me it's a matter of the tension always pulling on the stop bar and the stress that's put on those bolts when raised. I prefer everything tight to the top even if the lower strings ride the backside of the bridge. All that vibration carries to the body of the guitar both through the tailpiece and bridge so I don't see any harm in that. Also, I don't care for top wrapping. I think it looks like your LP is set up wrong and it's not clean. If it's a wraptail, no problem it was designed that way. I also don't like the way it marrs the finish on the tailpiece. I hear ya man. I always felt the same way. I've been putting some thought into this. Too much I'm sure And I've changed my outlook on it. Not trying to convince anyone else or anything like that. But the observations I've made are: - the stop tail is never actually touching the body when fully tightened. Only the shoulder of the stud is touching the threaded insert. If the stud is locked down by means of a spacer (Daves way w/ the Faber unit), or stop screw (Dan Erlewine set screw method) it isn't really any different. - I don't think there is any more tension on the studs by raising it. While they are higher, and subject to the laws of physics like any lever type device, the string tension is lower. So it might offset. Measurements would need to be made. I'm just guessing here. But they are designed to be adjustable and there are specs to set all the angles. Because of the tension difference on the strings that I noticed with the stop bar raised and lowered, which is quite dramatic, it got me thinking about other things related to that. - The bridge isn't level to the body due to the wound strings being thicker and usually a little higher action on the bass side. So by screwing the stop bar down level to the body it's putting very different angles on different strings. As an example, the wound E by nature of the intonation saddle being further back on the bridge than the high e, and with the bass side of the bridge being naturally higher, has almost double the break over angle if the stop bar is cranked down. So the string tension is uneven across the strings. I never noticed that while playing, but after leveling out the stop bar to match the bridge, getting similar break over on all the strings, and some play time, I think they play better and more evenly across the strings. - As far as any tone difference after raising the stop bar, I can't say it's any better or worse, or even any different. But I can say that I feel the instruments play better. It did allow me to go up a string size. So there would be differences associated with that. - With the stop bar cranked down I did get the occasional string breakage at the saddle. Raising it will probably help that.
|
|
|
Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Feb 3, 2019 14:28:41 GMT -7
I agree with what you're saying, Nicholas...I really like the feel of the strings better this way. Sounds great and it's rock solid. As far as whether or not there's more or less tension on the studs, the further away from the body that you're applying the string pull to the tailpiece, the harder it's going to pull because of the added leverage. But I'm pretty sure that no matter where you set it, those studs aren't going anywhere. Gibson probably used the same setup with their top wrapped Les Pauls as they did with the others. I think it would make sense that top wrapping will give the longest lever and strongest pull for a given string tension.
Anyway...I measured the spacers and the Faber kit came with two of each of these sizes: 3/32, 5/32, and 7/32. In metric: 2.5mm, 4.0mm, and 5.5mm. I've got the two smaller ones on mine, raising my tailpiece 8/32 or 1/4". I ended up with right about 7 degrees angle on my strings at the tailpiece.
|
|
|
Post by zpilot on Feb 5, 2019 1:24:19 GMT -7
As you guys have figured out a lot of this is personal preference and like most engineering problems everything is a compromise. Such as this point. Reducing the angle of the string break across the bridge will change the perceived tension on the strings and you may like that feel. But it also reduces the down force on the bridge which will reduce sustain. Also the strings may be easier to bend but I'll bet you have to bend them farther to achieve the desired pitch. It's kind of like the difference between the feel and sustain of a trapeze tailpiece vs a stop tailpiece on an ES-335.
|
|
|
Post by LT on Feb 5, 2019 16:06:32 GMT -7
Interesting thread. It comes down to personal preference. I'm a top wrap guy. Here's my 2012 Standard.....the stop is all the way down and none of the strings touch the back of the bridge.
|
|
|
Post by runninwiththerevil (Matthew) on Mar 18, 2019 20:04:43 GMT -7
Great thread. I picked up a stupid deal on a 90's Studio that turned out to be great. It is a black with gold hardware and the hardware has aged wonderfully. Probably doesn't need "updates", but have a hard time leaving well enough alone. This gives me a bunch of options to consider while keeping the aged hardware. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by Paul (TRANE) on Mar 18, 2019 20:48:41 GMT -7
I tried top wrapping my 58 VOS about a month or so back. I was not sure I would like it. Well, I love it. Feels real good bending and such. I may go to a 10 to 48 set to get more tension on the bass side. Really glad I gave it a shot.
|
|
|
Post by nmz on Mar 19, 2019 1:47:24 GMT -7
Tried the top wrap and never looked back. No extra parts required and my hand covers it when I play, lol.
|
|