hpdj
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Posts: 31
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Post by hpdj on Mar 26, 2015 22:06:24 GMT -7
***Posted this in the "Amp Questions..." section as well FYI***
Hey all,
Want to make this relatively short. Read a bunch of the helpful advice on these forums in regards to the Effects Loop on my Maz 18 Jr. NR. I came to realize that plugging straight into the front of the amp gave me a MUCH more present/alive sound and that using the Effects Loop with my time based pedals was robbing my tone somehow. I already HAD a buffered pedal in the loop BUT I went out and bought a stand along buffer anyway just to make sure and cover my bases and aid in my troubleshooting (T1M mini buffer...he is AWESOME to deal with btw).
So the mini buffer gets here and I'm trying it right after the send in the FX loop (no change) right before the return in the loop (no change) and now I'm scratching my head..............IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH MY EFFECTS LOOP??
I cleaned it with Deoxit (just as some here have suggested) and tightened any loose screws on the amp (the top screws that hold the chassis were a bit loose) and......no change. Plug straight in and my Tele has chime and bite and high end frequency. Plug pedals into the Send/Return on the back and the tone is severely robbed. Unplug the pedals in the loop and everything comes back to life!
I tried running all my pedals through the front for a change and they sound good there. Definitely no tone-suck like when using the loop but......there has to be SOMETHING wrong with my Effects Loop right?? What am I missing? Does merely plugging cables into YOUR effects loop rob your amps tone as well??
My Maz is from 2011, the first year the loop came standard...along with the EQ bypass.
Please help, thanks so much!
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Post by greenblues58 on Mar 27, 2015 9:06:56 GMT -7
I find a dedicated buffer first then the effect straight into the return with two short patch cables does the trick . However if I run cables to and from the pedalboard from the loop another buffer is required on the return to keep the signal without any losses. Some pedals seem okay without a buffer in the loop with just two short cables. I use a Carl Martin Headroom reverb without issue in my Maz 18NR in this manner but my Yamaha SPX50 requires the buffer first.
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hpdj
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Post by hpdj on Mar 27, 2015 11:14:53 GMT -7
Hey thanks for the reply..
All my pedals are on my pedal board so I'm looking to keep it that way...especially if I add more time-based pedals to the Effects loop.
The buffer I got from Dan at T1M effects, is a dual buffer and I've tried it with pedals plugged into it right after the send AND the return at the same time, and still dull sound...I've tried it just on the return and just after send as well. Same thing..
Thoughts? Thanks!
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Post by kustom250 on Mar 27, 2015 13:25:09 GMT -7
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Post by dergit (Markus) on Mar 27, 2015 18:19:19 GMT -7
2011 MAZ 18 here as well. The FX loop was one of the reasons I went straight for the MAZ and didn't mess around with other Zs too much. But after feeling something's missing and reading your post today, I did some testing: So I guess I could put both pedals on top of the MAZ and plug them in with 30cm cables... or just leave them in front of the amp. Don't get me wrong, I don't regret getting the MAZ at all. To me, it sounds absolutely perfect. It would just have been a bit closer, I think. The FX loop was always that deciding factor whenever it got close.
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Post by deltone on Mar 27, 2015 20:15:10 GMT -7
Good job on the video. There's definitely a noticeable difference. Now I'm going to have to take my effects out of the effects loop and run them into the front of the amp behind my drive pedals. I have a feeling I'm going to hear the same thing. That's interesting.
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Post by rckline on Mar 28, 2015 13:45:57 GMT -7
I have tried many, many pedals in the FX Loop, and have found it depends on the pedal. Some sound great in the loop, some don't, no matter how "buffered" they are. I have no idea why.
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Post by dergit (Markus) on Mar 28, 2015 17:32:31 GMT -7
I now wish I had tried that same test with two very short patch cables to test whether the dullnes comes from the pedals or the cable length but I didn't think of it at the time because running the pedals right on top of the amp doesn't even remotely seem practical to live use to me...
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hpdj
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Post by hpdj on Mar 29, 2015 17:05:33 GMT -7
Hey, thanks so much for that video dergit! It's pretty much what I've experienced on my end with my Maz..
I'm totally aware that I'm not completely "hobbled" tone wise by the effect loops tone-sucking nature, because I can run the effects all through the front of the amp but...................that's not what I bought THIS amp for! I wanted that flexibility and also to be able to get the amps natural distortion without having my time based pedals in the way of the gain stage.
I'm really quite disappointed at this discovery with the effects loop. I've BARELY known the TRUE nature of my amp for years now...let alone the true nature of my guitars! I feel silly really and it's only my fault that I'm just discovering this...They just sound SO much livelier straight into the amp with no pedals and just a TAD less so, with some overdrive, fuzz etc etc (not time-based) pedals in front of it.
How can Dr. Z put out an amp that is so debilitating to the overall tone of the instrument plugged into it when using one of the amps functions. I'm not upset really, just disappointed and it's clear from all the writing on these forums about the effects loop that I'm not the only one with this issue. Now, I am aware that many have solved the problem with aftermarket buffer but....that's not working for ME so.....
Wouldn't they want to improve/change this issue? Have enough people not complained/expressed concern to the good folks at Dr. Z about this phenomenon?
rckline says that some pedals work just fine in the loop in his/her experience so...maybe there ARE others who have no tone issues with the loop at all....are more of you out there?? No buffer needed?
My thinking now is that maybe Dr. Z should look into OFFERING (not requiring) a buffer for the loop that takes care of these issues. One that can maybe be engaged or disengaged on the fly. Wouldn't that be a nice feature?? I would DEFINITELY pay to have my amp modded by Dr. Z if they went through the trouble of finding JUST the right kind of buffer to work with their amps...it could also be something that people with other amps used as well....just like the brake lite!
Come on, who is with me on this!? All in favor say AYE!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2015 4:40:53 GMT -7
I used to put th T1M buffer right after the send (short patch cable) and out to my pedal board - theoign five or six pedals - and back to the return. The difference before and after the buffer was insane. the buffer didn't work unless it was a very short patch cable. It would be hanging off the back of the amp.
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Post by dergit (Markus) on Mar 30, 2015 12:34:57 GMT -7
I guess it's the reason no other Zs have loops...
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Post by Ed M. on Mar 30, 2015 12:44:43 GMT -7
I doubt Dr. Z would do a buffered effects loop because his philosophy is to be keep the signal path as simple and short as possible and that's one of the reason his amps sound so good and feel the way they do.
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hpdj
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Post by hpdj on Mar 31, 2015 10:37:48 GMT -7
Hey all,
First off thanks SO much for all the responses! After some really extensive troubleshooting yesterday, I have to say that it's dnicholas100's advice that did the trick! I can now get very much the same feel with my tone, plugging straight into the amp, as I do with using the effects loop (but only using a short patch cable)! Let me explain..
I first started adding pedals to the effects loop one by one (with my regular long cables...about 12 ft. long each, I think) and carefully observing my tone with each additional pedal. I got up to a total of 3 of my time based pedals (I left out the Strymon Timeline) which ended up being my Tech 21 R.V.B (reverb) pedal, my TC Electronics Vortex Flange and my Voodoo Labs Tremelo.
The tone got worse and worse as I added each pedal...meaning (as I've mentioned) the life, punchiness, chime and treble of my Tele got diminished with each additional pedal in the chain. Increasingly distant and dull sounding is another way to put it. I then started putting my buffer right after the send in the loop or switching it and putting it right before the return and.....NO CHANGE...was this buffer broken or something, I thought?? It happens to be a dual buffer (shout out to Dan at T1M effects!) and so I even had it hooked up right after the send AND before the return at the same time and......NO CHANGE.
This buffer in particular got rave reviews from folks online and even other buffers were reported to have done "wonders" to the tone of their set-up's. THEN, I came back to these here forums in desperation and read dnicholas100's comments:
"...the buffer didn't work unless it was a very short patch cable. It would be hanging off the back of the amp."
And BOOM! That's what did it for me! Using a short patch cable RIGHT after the send in the loop and then to the buffer and then using my long cables to the pedals.....and long cable back to the return. My tone is back! I'd say the buffer helps to restore between 80-90% of the tone of just plugging straight into the amp with nothing in the loop at all. That's a HUGE difference from the cloudy tone I was experiencing before! And you only notice those differences when your going back and forth and really scrutinizing things. The guitars tone is just a BIT more sparkly and lively and full, sans the use of the effects loop.
So add me to the list of folks who's use of a buffer in the loop has restored almost all of the tone of their set-up! But remember...if your not seeing (hearing) results from the use of a buffer.....TRY A SHORT PATCH CABLE STRAIGHT FROM THE SEND IN THE LOOP....that could just be the thing that snaps things back in place for you!
Lastly, I'll say that I understand that Dr. Z's amps are so great because the signal paths are short etc...but the Maz 18 Jr. is their most feature-filled amp with the inclusion of the effects loop and the tone bypass switch...and I am a sucker for extra features on a product AS LONG as they don't detract from the products raison d'etre (reason for being)...and with the Maz 18 Jr. I feel like the inclusion of these extra features (well, mainly the effects loop) takes away from the amps tone when in use and....that is a bummer.
With the option of having a factory installed buffer that can be engaged/disengaged on the fly as dependent on ones needs, the average consumer (ME! maybe YOU) has one less thing to worry about and can then spend more time PLAYING the darn thing. Again, this would be something akin to the Brake Lite and either easily installed to an amp already purchased (any amp with an effects loop really) or it would come pre-installed straight from the factory. I think I'll write the good Dr. an email and suggest this. I like playing with the different aspects of the amp...it's fun! But I DON'T like troubleshooting issues because it's time consuming. You feel me?
Thanks again for all your help!!
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Post by dergit (Markus) on Mar 31, 2015 11:59:43 GMT -7
Thanks for that info... shipping to Germany from T1M is a bit pricey but I might order one to give the FX loop another shot!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 12:21:50 GMT -7
It's basically exactly the same with or without it. I noticed that you can compensate with the cut knob to add the minuscule amount of sparkle that's missing. Glad it worked out!
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Post by greenblues58 on Mar 31, 2015 13:28:14 GMT -7
I think you have all come to the same conclusion as I originally stated above in my post. Short patch cable, buffer then effect and short patch cable to return. Dergit......... if your in Germany check out Brightonion pedals in the UK he ships worldwide. I have his dedicated buffer with true bypass and it works a treat with the Maz 18.
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hpdj
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Post by hpdj on Mar 31, 2015 15:50:28 GMT -7
Oops! Greenblues58, I'm so sorry...you certainly DID mention using a short patch cable from the effects loop in your earlier post! Thanks again for your response...all ya'll
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hpdj
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Post by hpdj on Mar 31, 2015 15:56:47 GMT -7
oh and I will also say that, while I did try the effects in front of the amp for a little bit, I much prefer using them in the loop... When my time based effects are used in the front of the amp, they sort of "take up too much room" in a way that is not bad, but not preferable. In the loop they play more of a supporting role and I like that. Its not a huge difference, but...there you have it... I'll try to be more specific another time but... I hope that kinda makes sense to some of you
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Post by dergit (Markus) on Apr 28, 2015 0:24:40 GMT -7
Thanks again for all the info in this thread. I now have two T1M buffers in my setup. One at the very beginning of the chain in my pedalboard and one with a short patch cable dangling from the send of my MAZ's FX loop - no audible degradation at all.
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juicecastle
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That's my dad! and he was awesome!!!
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Post by juicecastle on May 1, 2015 12:08:05 GMT -7
Thanks again for all the info in this thread. I now have two T1M buffers in my setup. One at the very beginning of the chain in my pedalboard and one with a short patch cable dangling from the send of my MAZ's FX loop - no audible degradation at all. thanks starting this thread dergit! I found the tone loss issue as well. Why the use of two buffers? I'm really interested in this buffer from T1m. I saw a video where only one was used and worked so I'm curious as to why your using two. Thanks.
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Post by dergit (Markus) on May 1, 2015 14:37:17 GMT -7
Hey juicecastle,
I didn't start this thread, hpdj did! I use only one at the beginning of my FX loop but I'm using another one at the very beginning of my chain (ie. right after the guitar, before tuner, distortion pedals etc.) and that one actually makes a huge difference as well!
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juicecastle
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That's my dad! and he was awesome!!!
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Post by juicecastle on May 1, 2015 15:44:04 GMT -7
Hey juicecastle, I didn't start this thread, hpdj did! I use only one at the beginning of my FX loop but I'm using another one at the very beginning of my chain (ie. right after the guitar, before tuner, distortion pedals etc.) and that one actually makes a huge difference as well! oops well thanks for the for the thread start hpdj!! Got some great info here. Thanks dergit for that, I may just get two buffers then!! For the price it seems like you can't go wrong with that!! Appreciate it!!!!
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Post by rckline on May 26, 2015 14:38:00 GMT -7
hey dergit- a little bird told me I should hear your music-can you send us a link?
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Post by dergit (Markus) on May 29, 2015 2:02:04 GMT -7
How nice of that little bird! There's more on Soundcloud, Facebook and, of course, our homepage! And you can find us on Spotify, iTunes, amazon etcetc... Say thanks to the little bird and let me know what you think!
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juicecastle
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That's my dad! and he was awesome!!!
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Post by juicecastle on May 29, 2015 12:29:08 GMT -7
Dergit This is great stuff!! Reminds me of Phoenix and cut copy Love the synth sounds and you can never go wrong with the microKorg!! And of course the Dr Z!!!
Heading to iTunes now.
Thanks for sharing.
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Post by doctorice on May 29, 2015 12:47:42 GMT -7
Interesting and informative thread. Thank you.
On the question of effects loops on Dr Zs, loops aren't exclusively on the MAZ. My JAZ has one, although it was evidently not a standard feature. Of course, the JAZ front end is a direct relation tothe MAZ, so it's not a big leap. However, I think I've seen loops on other Zs, but I can't recall which. It might be on some of the now discontinued models.
Added: If you really want to hear if the loop circuit itself has a tonal effect, just stick a very short cable between send and return. Compare that sound with what you hear without that cable. Even that's not a perfect test, but it's, I think, the closest one can get. Once you start running long cables and sending signal through them little boxes, well....
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Post by dergit (Markus) on May 30, 2015 5:18:35 GMT -7
Thanks so much guys!
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Post by rckline on May 30, 2015 13:54:59 GMT -7
Hi Dergit-
Very nice, it's refreshing to hear a band play without sonically stomping on each other, and I LOVE your time/beat manipulations-it sounds like another musician is weaving everything together (does that make sense?). You folks are in Europe, no?
Thanks for your effects loop info too-I love efx loops in general. Killer amp tone.
way cool...
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Post by dergit (Markus) on May 31, 2015 3:08:54 GMT -7
Thanks... we put a lot of effort into our arrangements on record and on stage respectively. I feel it's the single biggest thing that modern music needs to evolve in. Everyone's a fantastic guitarist or drummer these days and no one wants to hear it anymore. I have a confession to make, however. My amp in those videos was a Line6 DT25 (Bogner designed EL84 power stage with a Line6 model of the Route 66 as a preamp). I had wanted a Z forever and could never afford one until a few months ago. Now I wish I could re-record everything.
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Post by rckline on May 31, 2015 12:43:30 GMT -7
Great modeling, I never noticed until you mentioned it. It really sounds clean and clear. Of course, I can also imagine how a DRZ would add some heft. Things can only get better! Interesting observation on how common musical talent has become. Folks in general are definitely getting smarter(especially the kids)! Best Wishes Dergit
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