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Post by suhrplayer on Oct 12, 2014 14:27:32 GMT -7
So i've been researching hand-wired amps till i'm dizzy the last few months. I thought I had it down to a few makers. Been using a modified Hot Rod Dlx for quite some time, but just tired of the headache of having to fix it and the veil of sound in cheap circuit board technology. It does well for my pedal platform, but I know there is light out there somewhere.
Enter the Dr Z M12...watched for used ones and finally found one locally for a great deal. Took it for the weekend to try it, and I want to like it, but for the life of me I can't get it to play nice with my distortions and overdrives. Way to much high end until I turn the Treble knob almost off. It does take the delays and echos very well for cleans, but pedals like an SD9, Rockett Blue Note & Holdsworth, it just comes across as abrasive.
I did try several speakers, some working ok: WGS ET65, Reaper, Celestion Greenback, G12H30 & Heritage 65.
I also swapped a couple different EF86 tubes as well.
What am I missing? Do my ears just want to gravitate toward a Z-28 style amp?
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Oct 12, 2014 15:26:46 GMT -7
Perhaps. A lot of guys have tried the M12 and even called it "sterile" or "boring" sounding--maybe because they're used to playing amps with such richness & depth as the Z-28, MAZ, Route 66, etc. The WGS ET65, Greenback, and Heritage 65 are all excellent speakers to pair with the M12, so if you didn't like it with those, maybe the M12 just isn't your thing.
To me, the M12 is like a really nice & simple low-wattage Blackface (Deluxe/Princeton) with more a controllable low-volume range, and with more interesting harmonics such that it doesn't need the reverb. And if you crank it really good (volume above 2:00), it starts getting AC-15-ish on you.
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Post by suhrplayer on Oct 12, 2014 16:28:05 GMT -7
For full disclosure, after being on for a while one of the power tubes becomes microphonic and rattles. It does seem like the tone changes at that point, but my ears are shot for today. What do ya think, could it just be a bad power tube skewing my results?
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Post by jlowder23 on Oct 12, 2014 20:15:42 GMT -7
Not sure what guitar you're using but I play a tele through my m12. I never use the high setting because I find it too bright with my tele. Try running on tge low setting with volume around 2 and treble at 10. I run bass at 2. I've tried many different speakers and found the celestion gold to be the best.
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Post by crwolf on Oct 13, 2014 8:35:09 GMT -7
Not intending to be patronizing here: Do you know that the EQ controls don't work like "normal"? As in, full treble and bass is found at noon. Beyond that, gain is added to those frequencies. I hope it's something that simple cause I love the M12 and I want everyone else to as well. Haha.
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Post by suhrplayer on Oct 13, 2014 8:46:39 GMT -7
I was aware of it, but thanks for reminding me crwolf. I've been keeping Bass at 1-2 o'clock and Treble at 10 o'clock or below. Will be borrowing another set of EL84's today to try, as i'm hoping this is the issue. Then I can maybe play with having the tone knobs add gain to the preamp section just for straight in fun.
Cross your fingers...
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Post by pcns on Oct 13, 2014 10:01:57 GMT -7
Anxious to here your thoughts after a power tube swap. Should be much better! My 2 cents, Todd
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Post by mcdyasz on Oct 13, 2014 10:53:39 GMT -7
I found my M12 to be very responsive to tube changes. I even tried a high gain 12AX7 in the V2 position and that really pushed it in a noticeable way. Each EF86 or pair of EL84s I tried in it sounded distinctly different.
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Post by doctorice on Oct 13, 2014 11:49:59 GMT -7
Have you tweaked your pedals to match up to the M12? I sometimes find that to be critical when changing amps. Example: some ODs, set for the Z Wreck, sounded too bright into the Therapy. Yet the straight-in guitar sound was just what I wanted.
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Oct 13, 2014 14:21:14 GMT -7
I was aware of it, but thanks for reminding me crwolf. I've been keeping Bass at 1-2 o'clock and Treble at 10 o'clock or below. Will be borrowing another set of EL84's today to try, as i'm hoping this is the issue. Then I can maybe play with having the tone knobs add gain to the preamp section just for straight in fun. Cross your fingers... That's pretty normal positioning of the Bass & Treble knobs, in my own experience and from what I gather from other members' posts around here. Do try some alternate power tubes (if you can) and keep us updated.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2014 14:45:19 GMT -7
Have you tweaked your pedals to match up to the M12? I sometimes find that to be critical when changing amps. Example: some ODs, set for the Z Wreck, sounded too bright into the Therapy. Yet the straight-in guitar sound was just what I wanted. Glad somebody mentioned this. I found the Therapy to be a good bit brighter than I expected at "standard" settings. It took a bit of tweaking to get it right, for me.
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Post by suhrplayer on Oct 13, 2014 14:48:14 GMT -7
The seller has graciously provided me with 2 fresh sets of JJ & EH EL84's to try in it tonite.
Updates to come...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2014 14:52:14 GMT -7
Yeah--I think you'll dig it with a Gold; nice round highs. I run it on high with the treble at about 9:00 and bass at maybe 1:00 or so, volume to taste, and it's got some nice rumble at those settings. I use it almost exclusively with pedals, and generally have been setting the treble a bit lower on them than with my EZG or Z-28. I did find that it gets a bit fizzy at super-high settings (everything dimed, basically), but short of that I haven't had a problem. The EF86 front end is VERY responsive to gainy input, though, and the EL84 power section can get fizzy on you--just as it can on the Maz 18, etc. New power tubes might help, and a good NOS EF86, if you can find one, is a fine thing. I see some M12 users are also changing out the rectifier, too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2014 14:55:48 GMT -7
That said, so far the stock tubes on my M12 sound just fine.
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Post by boudro57 on Oct 13, 2014 19:20:38 GMT -7
I hear you suhrplayer as the M12 high is VERY responsive to subtle adjustments. I am running the stock JJ-el84 and have the Blue Note as well. Run my M12 on Low: Vol 11:00 Bass 1-2:00 and Treb 11:00. Blue note run the Treb 10:00 and Fat about Noon. Running through a Blue and very happy with this setup in church which is sensitive to highs. When running by greenback in an orange cab I can get away with pushing the Bass to 3:00 and Treb to 2:00 and it sounds great. Be interested in your report with the replacement tubes.
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Post by suhrplayer on Oct 14, 2014 7:28:56 GMT -7
Well, here's the rundown. Popped in the JJ EL84s this morning (as I worked late last nite) to give it a spin.
The new power tubes livened it up pretty drastically. Sounds and feels quite a bit better, with much more sustain. I still have to be judicious with the Treble, as to not offend my sensitive ears (tinnitus bad). The pedal that gives it most trouble is still the Maxon SD9, ala Scott Henderson style. I have to turn the tone on it almost completely off.
That being said, it's pretty incredible the clarity difference when I A/B this amp with my Hot-Rodded Hot Rod Dlx. Made it sound like my HRDx was in the closet. I played a Bad Cat Cub II 30 at church a while back, and the clarity & bite was unbelievable...had to tame it fairly drastically with the Cut knob feature, which was nice.
I am pretty surprised how good the stock Greenback sounds. In this amp, I actually prefer it to WGS ET65, which I thought was my go to speaker. What makes me sad is that I had to sell my Zendrive to fund this amp. It would have sounded great!
As much as I want it to, I have to come to terms that one amp cannot do it all. I will most likely pull the trigger on this deal, as the seller is looking for a decision.
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Post by zm12 on Oct 14, 2014 14:17:43 GMT -7
I have an M12 as well as a Maxon SD9 and an Analogman SD9. I find that the SD9 needs to have its tone control turned all the way down or almost all the way down on every amp I've ever played them through. The low input on the M12 can help with certain drive pedals. Awesome amp!
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Post by boudro57 on Oct 14, 2014 17:37:35 GMT -7
I had the same issue with the Maxon and had to turn the tone all the way down until I had it modded. Low input makes the pedals sound great! M12 loves the Animal too!
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Post by suhrplayer on Oct 15, 2014 7:33:28 GMT -7
Owned the Analogman SD9 before but I still prefer the un-modded SD9. I was able to tame it just enough by keeping the tone knob just barely on. I am curious to hear the Animal on the M12. The Plexitone Single didn't play nice with it first time around, but maybe i'll try my friends again, as it sounds much better with the new power tubes.
Exploring the 2x12 cab direction on this as well.
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Post by boudro57 on Oct 15, 2014 12:33:19 GMT -7
I run my M12 with a single Blue in church and a '78 Marshall 4x 12 with "Blackbacks" in band situations and it sound amazing! The OD's that work best for me are the Blue Note, Animal and Small Fry - all offer a different flavor with the M12 and offer nice headroom with a band. Interested to hear your comments on a 2x12 cab. Cheers!
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Post by smolder on Oct 15, 2014 21:30:12 GMT -7
I've been playing mine for a few days now... Previous owner was nice enough to leave some nice old stock glass in it. On a lark I took out the tesla preamp tube and substituted a mini watt Phillips (Harleen), a holland amperex, and then a valco... Very distinct difference with more upper end clarity and touch sensitivity. I don't think I stepped on a pedal all night.
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Post by suhrplayer on Oct 16, 2014 9:09:50 GMT -7
I have to say, I am pretty thrilled with what i'm getting out of this M12. It's slowly opening up to me. I don't have a 2x12 yet, but daisy chained to another combo's ET65 speaker and plugged in the spkr jack to 4 ohms. Seemed to soothe the savage beast a bit. Even at low volumes sounded great.
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Post by Jefferson on Oct 17, 2014 18:27:13 GMT -7
My M12 definitely loves my blue note and animal!
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 17, 2014 22:44:52 GMT -7
So surhplayer... is the conclusion then that you like it now?
Does it still sound dry to you? Are you getting enough bass/fullness?
My treble is set around 10/10:30 depending, so pretty low but technically it's still above 50% of full. And yah I run my bass around 1:30-2.
When I first got this amp I had a bit of trouble understanding it as well. Another kicker is this - if both your tone controls are below noon and yer volume isn't that high then it can be pretty dull and quiet. But get that volume up (and it's still not too loud) and it'll come to life.
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Post by suhrplayer on Oct 18, 2014 7:34:41 GMT -7
Beginning with my conclusion: Love it!
Took it to a friend of mine's 'gear fest' basement last nite. He has people over every week to play jazz standards and talk/demo gear. We are admitted fusion geeks... That being said, my friend owns a real 65' Blackface Dlx, old JMP and various other modern amps, but prefers to play thru a very dark, PCB board amp with a hundred switches and knobs, because it plays nice at lower volumes.
I concur with most here in that the M12 is very sensitive to speaker changes in perceived loudness, dynamics and tone. Several hours, speaker cabs and pedal combinations later, he finally got it...the dynamics, harmonic content, general playability and expression of what this level of hand-wired simplicity can bring. I think the clouds parted...the seed has been planted.
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Post by Jefferson on Oct 18, 2014 8:41:09 GMT -7
^^^^^^^Nice!
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Post by Abandoned on Oct 19, 2014 4:37:30 GMT -7
Glad to hear suhrplayer
Surprisingly enough for how simple this amp is, it was a bit tricky to figure it out at first for me. Like I said earlier it really does take getting that volume knob up a bit to get it's tone coming to life, for me this requires getting the volume knob above 12:30 on the low input. I used to play on HI input only but that was in the very beginning. I've been on LO input now for over a year and it suits me and my pedals and volume requirements really well. When I was on HI input I remember not being able to get the volume above 10:30 without it being too loud. Being on LO with volume around 1-2 works out perfect for me. It allows me to get that power amp and circuit working harder and produces more fullness for me than being on HI input with lower volume settings. This amp was the perfect tone solution for me for my playing environments. Cuz other amps I had to have the volume too low for good tone even with pedals. The M12 does it perfect for me. I like the tone of the amp at higher volume settings on LO and HI very much, but that usually gets too loud for my playing environments. But when I get to play around with those higher volume settings (3:00 or a little higher), it perfect tone for me in every wa again this is taking into concsideratiin the EQ setting mentality I espressed earlier. When I get the volume into higher ranges I can turn the bass down a bit as the power tube full starts coming into play more.
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Post by suhrplayer on Dec 1, 2014 11:51:30 GMT -7
Well, not quite 2 months later and i'm in the same boat. Just like when I first got it, the tubes became very microphonic and possibly red plated the EL84's resulting in the tone taking a nose dive. I turned the amp off pretty quickly when this happened. Last time, I popped in some JJ EL84's that the seller supplied me with (not sure if new or not) and BAM! Tone for days! This time, my backup power tubes were EH EL84's that the seller included. (still not sure if new or not) Put those tubes in and it still sounds weak, flabby & harsh again. Does anyone subscribe to this being a 5Y3 rectifier tube to blame?
I am going to go out and grab another set of JJ EL84's to see if I can get back to square one....
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Post by kustom250 on Dec 1, 2014 12:45:50 GMT -7
I've not had good luck with modern el84's lasting very long. Sorry to hear you're experiencing the same thing.
I've had enough troubles with them that I'm considering moving away from el84 based amps completely.
Also, many ODs are voiced for BF Fenders and can sound like poop with any amp that's not voiced the same. Or at least need what seems like a radical eq setting to sound good.
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klip
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Post by klip on Dec 5, 2014 13:01:56 GMT -7
I had the same problem with my Maz 18 with it eating tubes. My friend plays in a modern country band with a Maz 18 and he said he goes through tubes left and right too. We both started using Russian NOS 6n14n tubes. I got a matched quad directly from Z. They were military grade so they are heavy duty and will last longer. Some say they are a little brighter than say a JJ but they will last about 3-4 times as long and with a little EQing sound killer. I am picking up an M-12 in a few weeks and am curious to see how the tubes that are in it compare to the NOS. I can check back and let you all know. If you are concerned about tubes call Don at Z and get him to send you a set of the 6n14n. They are the same tubes they use in the Z-Wrecks. They sound great. Also trying to get ride of a few things to fund the M12. Message me if interested. reverb.com/item/390243-marshall-2x12-speaker-cabinet-2061cxreverb.com/item/355592-2-celestion-g-12-alnico-gold-50-watt-speakers
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