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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Sept 17, 2014 7:54:13 GMT -7
back to this thorny subject!
Okay, my lovely new PRS S2 Mira is here, and she's a beauty of a workhorse! It's PRS's take on an SG for the 21st century - raw, gutsy, but surprisingly versatile with the coil tap. It's even slightly neck heavy, but not as much as an SG! I'll review it properly in another thread.
However, it is in desperate need to of a treble bleed cap on the Volume, and SOMETHING on the Tone control
Volume first - boy, it goes off the boil within a notch of 10, and gets a bit dull, so it needs a good treble bleed cap. Question is, any advice on what size of cap I should be looking at for hottish buckers?
Tone - this control is just about useless as is. Okay, I don't use Tone on my guitars much anyway, but this is like a muddy blanket over the sound. Question: can I use a cap or resistor to alter the frequency range of the Tone control? I would be happy if I could get that Les Paul lower mids "woman tone" - I could use that on a couple of songs......
I'm thinking of Sprague Orange Drops.............
Cheers
Pete
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Post by Keith on Sept 17, 2014 8:14:37 GMT -7
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Post by Easyrom on Sept 17, 2014 8:32:42 GMT -7
TV Jones recommands .001uF cap + 150K resistor. I've had one in a Gretsch Power Jet and it did work fine. I've been thinking about having one (well, two) in my Bacchus LP '54 (Lollar '50 inside), but I've found in the past that treble bleed can mess with some pedals (fuzz mainly). store.tvjones.com/treble-bleed-p100.aspx
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Post by Stan on Sept 17, 2014 9:12:08 GMT -7
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Sept 17, 2014 10:43:09 GMT -7
Thanks for the link - good call! I'm sure if I was using Lollar pups, I may not need anything, but these are PRS pups, so how does Jason suggest I overcome "the mud" when I roll off the GV?
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Post by thunderstruck(formerly doc001) on Sept 17, 2014 10:54:42 GMT -7
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Post by thunderstruck(formerly doc001) on Sept 17, 2014 10:59:27 GMT -7
I'm sure if I was using Lollar pups, I may not need anything, but these are PRS pups, so how does Jason suggest I overcome "the mud" when I roll off the GV? From Jason Lollar: How do I keep the treble from bleeding off when I roll the volume down?For Gibson type wiring use the 57 Les Paul custom wiring schematic included in the installation instructions or on my website. You can adapt this to fenders with a little creative adjustment. I do not recommend using a volume bypass capacitor. If you have one on your fender—it's usually a very small cap and resistor located between two of the lugs on the volume control pot. Treble bypass caps roll off the bass and accent the treble as soon as you roll off the volume. The more you roll off the more it sounds like you are playing through a little tin can. This scheme can also degrade the bass and volume when the volume is all the way up if it is leaking. I have had many times where someone called me commenting the pickups sound trebly and weak. Once they got rid of the volume bypass cap the pickups sounded fuller and stronger to an amazing extent. I recommend that you never use that, instead put a smaller tone cap on—fenders use .047, try a .022 which can really improve the volume and tone control action and if needed rewire it to look more like the 57 LP custom schematic.
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Post by kustom250 on Sept 17, 2014 11:23:13 GMT -7
I'm sure if I was using Lollar pups, I may not need anything, but these are PRS pups, so how does Jason suggest I overcome "the mud" when I roll off the GV? I'm not sure what Jason suggests but what I do is set my tone controls with the GV backed off 75-85% That way it gets a little brighter as you turn up...which makes it sound that much louder...usually what you're looking for...and it sounds right when you're backed off... Works for me but not for everyone
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Post by nmz on Sept 17, 2014 11:40:15 GMT -7
I'm sure if I was using Lollar pups, I may not need anything, but these are PRS pups, so how does Jason suggest I overcome "the mud" when I roll off the GV? From Jason Lollar: How do I keep the treble from bleeding off when I roll the volume down?For Gibson type wiring use the 57 Les Paul custom wiring schematic included in the installation instructions or on my website. You can adapt this to fenders with a little creative adjustment. I do not recommend using a volume bypass capacitor. If you have one on your fender—it's usually a very small cap and resistor located between two of the lugs on the volume control pot. Treble bypass caps roll off the bass and accent the treble as soon as you roll off the volume. The more you roll off the more it sounds like you are playing through a little tin can. This scheme can also degrade the bass and volume when the volume is all the way up if it is leaking. I have had many times where someone called me commenting the pickups sound trebly and weak. Once they got rid of the volume bypass cap the pickups sounded fuller and stronger to an amazing extent. I recommend that you never use that, instead put a smaller tone cap on—fenders use .047, try a .022 which can really improve the volume and tone control action and if needed rewire it to look more like the 57 LP custom schematic.I might try this or just keep the cap on the neck PU. I have noticed that my LP does sound too bright since the install especially the bridge.
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Post by thunderstruck(formerly doc001) on Sept 17, 2014 12:11:42 GMT -7
From Jason Lollar: How do I keep the treble from bleeding off when I roll the volume down?For Gibson type wiring use the 57 Les Paul custom wiring schematic included in the installation instructions or on my website. You can adapt this to fenders with a little creative adjustment. I do not recommend using a volume bypass capacitor. If you have one on your fender—it's usually a very small cap and resistor located between two of the lugs on the volume control pot. Treble bypass caps roll off the bass and accent the treble as soon as you roll off the volume. The more you roll off the more it sounds like you are playing through a little tin can. This scheme can also degrade the bass and volume when the volume is all the way up if it is leaking. I have had many times where someone called me commenting the pickups sound trebly and weak. Once they got rid of the volume bypass cap the pickups sounded fuller and stronger to an amazing extent. I recommend that you never use that, instead put a smaller tone cap on—fenders use .047, try a .022 which can really improve the volume and tone control action and if needed rewire it to look more like the 57 LP custom schematic.I might try this or just keep the cap on the neck PU. I have noticed that my LP does sound too bright since the install especially the bridge. You can also use a smaller resistor on the bleed circuit? or some such thing. The guys here will help.
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Post by headshrinker (Marc) on Sept 17, 2014 13:34:21 GMT -7
Pete: First of all did you get the Mira new? The reason I ask is that I have a first generation Mira and it has a treble bleed circuit in it. Actually every PRS I have owned has had one and I have been through a bunch. Maybe take a look if you haven't. Second, in general, I find PRS pickups to be a little dark. I like it, but that may be what you are hearing. If you change the cap on the tone pot I would try a .022 or less. The smaller the value the less dip into the frequency range when things get shuttled to ground. I have used some at half that value when all I want to tame are the real high frequencies. If you want to explore treble bleed circuits, here is a good link. I have been using the Kinman type. If you can't get those exact values, values close will work fine. It has less affect on the other frequencies when you roll back the volume to my ears. Using the parallel method will smooth out the taper of the volume pot a little more than the Kinman but they are close. vintagevibeguitars.com/dox/trebleBleed_tip.pdf
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Post by markT on Sept 17, 2014 13:39:21 GMT -7
Hey Pete....do you still have that Copper Paper in Oil cap I sent you a couple of years ago? Maybe still in your Tele? I forgot what value I sent but I think it was a .022. A little less than usually in a Tele. If you're not using it, maybe try it. Could these be the ultimate guitar capacitors. I just them and I think so. angela.com/angelacopperfoilpaperinoil022uf630vdccapacitor-2.aspxI know there are many fine folks on here and everywhere that love and swear by the treble bleed caps...but I'm in Mr Lollars camp. I don't have any problems as all my instruments utilize the 50's wiring. Good luck!~
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Post by heynewguy (Ol’ Bill) on Sept 17, 2014 14:02:00 GMT -7
Hey Pete....do you still have that Copper Paper in Oil cap I sent you a couple of years ago? Maybe still in your Tele? I forgot what value I sent but I think it was a .022. A little less than usually in a Tele. If you're not using it, maybe try it. Could these be the ultimate guitar capacitors. I just them and I think so. angela.com/angelacopperfoilpaperinoil022uf630vdccapacitor-2.aspxI know there are many fine folks on here and everywhere that love and swear by the treble bleed caps...but I'm in Mr Lollars camp. I don't have any problems as all my instruments utilize the 50's wiring. Good luck!~ I have have the above PIO cap in my Partscaster Tele. It's very smooth going from full on to about 4.
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Sept 17, 2014 15:25:03 GMT -7
Can I use the 50s wiring on a single volume / single tone with push/pull coil tap?? Mark, yes I have that cap installed in my Tele and it's wonderful! Thanks for the link to it - I'm just not sure if the same value will work with humbuckers? Marc - yes, it's brand new S2 model. The Volume pot is all action from 10 down to 8, then pretty muddy and low volume below that. I usually work my GV extensively and rarely have it at 10 on my LP and Tele, but on this, the tail-off is way to severe and the tone just dies............ I just want something simple to lengthen the taper on the V pot, and keep the mojo alive ie: keep the treble in the sound. I'll get a few cheap caps of various sizes and see what works best, then buy a decent one of that size. As for the Tone pot, any advice there? Same thing - experiment? Thanks so far guys.........
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Post by markT on Sept 17, 2014 15:50:53 GMT -7
This is from the Angela website: linkAngela/Jensen Copper Foil Paper In Oil Signal Capacitors Could these be the best signal capacitors ever made? Many amp builders and guitar technicians all over the world think so. Made by Jensen in Denmark, these paper in oil signal capacitors feature oxygen free copper foil and solid silver lead wires. Not polarized and non-directional. These copper foil caps set the standard for a natural and realistic presentation of music. Yes, they're a little bit better than similarly constructed aluminum foil paper in oil capacitors. These are my personal favorite signal capacitors for my own audio projects; I've even got one in the tone circuit of my Telecaster. Tone Cap Tips In your guitar the Tone Cap rolls off the highs. The higher the value the more highs are rolled off. .01µf .015µf Great alternative to .022 in P-90 and humbucker equipped guitars. "Woman tone" as Cesar Diaz used to say. .022µf The traditional value for P-90 and humbucker equipped guitars. .047µf The traditional choice for Fender and other similarly equipped guitars with single coil pickups. 0.1µf This value was used originally in old Fender guitars and basses but most modern players feel that it rolls off the highs too much, a relic from the days when guitar players had to 'double on bass'.
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Post by headshrinker (Marc) on Sept 17, 2014 16:23:40 GMT -7
You might also try just the resister part of the bleed. That's what smooths out the volume control. Try a 150k across the lugs. Not sure what PRS uses for their volume control but it's likely a 300K or 500K. A 1 meg will get you some more highs. Oh and you can do 50s wiring with a one volume one tone guitar. The coil tap is irrelevant. It has to do with how the wires are connected not the number of pots. Lots of folks do it on Teles. Try the .015 on the tone pot. Another link www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/500/Les_Paul_50s_Wiring.png
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Post by greenblues58 on Sept 17, 2014 16:31:50 GMT -7
I would find out what type of taper and value the stock pots are and what value capacitor then go from there. As already noted I thought all PRS had factry fitted treble bleeds. A 550k pot on both volume and tone wired 50,s style with a smaller value cap will give you far more range to work without any dark tone at all. I have Bareknuckle's own 550k CTS on my gibsons with 0.015 caps wired 50's on the neck pickups and both tone and volume ranges are usable down to 2 on the pot though they drop quickly from 10 to 8 ( mean to clean) the range from 8 downwards is all usable and gradual.
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Post by thunderstruck(formerly doc001) on Sept 17, 2014 17:46:02 GMT -7
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Post by Keith on Sept 18, 2014 5:18:16 GMT -7
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Post by detuned on Sept 18, 2014 6:34:41 GMT -7
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Post by mickey on Sept 18, 2014 8:52:15 GMT -7
This....When I first bought a PRS in '89 I had an issue and wrote to them (this was before email!). Got a reply from Paul Reed Smith himself, he was very helpful. I don't know if they still have the same level of customer service nowadays, but I bet it's pretty good.
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Post by thunderstruck(formerly doc001) on Sept 18, 2014 9:35:05 GMT -7
I have a Grosh ElektraJet that has a treble bleed circuit. The guitar is dark to me. I do love the way it sounds. So I've left the circuit alone. Not sure how long that will last. I do love to tinker.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2014 13:31:50 GMT -7
I prefer just the .001 cap. No resistor Works for me on all pickups, even Lollars.
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Sept 18, 2014 14:54:29 GMT -7
I prefer just the .001 cap. No resistor Works for me on all pickups, even Lollars. that's .001 uF Eric? (still trying to get to grips with the actual scale of measurement used with caps.......)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2014 15:10:40 GMT -7
I think so. They are little tan Jobbies. I get 'em at Radio Shack. They say .001
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Post by jesslm02 on Sept 19, 2014 6:07:00 GMT -7
I found just using a single cap to thin out my tone too much for my liking. But, it may work for you and it's an inexpensive mod to try. However, I have been using the Kinman mod (kinman pickups fame), and it works MUCH better to my ears. The tone stays almost identical to the full on volume. I had pretty much given up on the treble bypass caps until I found this mod. For the Kinman mod, take that same .001 cap and put a 130k resistor in series with it. Another option in lue of the treble bleed mod is to convert your LP to the "50s" style wiring. You can google it for the details but basically all you do is move a few wires to a different location which changes the loading on your pickups when using the volume knobs. Here ya go. Found this on the 50s wiring - www.premierguitar.com/articles/3_Mods_for_3_GuitarsSent from my Galaxy S4 using Proboards
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Post by rcrecelius on Sept 19, 2014 7:10:28 GMT -7
I love the 50's wiring on my teles.,.however I do have an issue w my Cabronita since it doesn't have a tone control I was forced to add a treble bleed to it...and it seemed to be ok...unknown values, just was in my drawer cap and resistor together and I knew that's what it was supposed to be.
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Post by Pete aka shouldb on Sept 19, 2014 8:51:22 GMT -7
Right, I have just given this a complete rethink (I hate messing with new guitars.... especially ones THIS good) So, booted up the Therapy. Set the GV at 8. Set the amp to "cooking with gas mode" - my favourite! - and rocked out! (I had to reset the amp EQ: B - 9, M - maxed, T - 3). WONDERFUL!! Then, when I maxed the GV, I got a big boost in Volume, and a big boost in Treble, BUT I figured this could work VERY well for solos with the band! It would cut through really well. And to get back to hot rhythm requires the lightest touch on the GV back to 8. Hmm, maybe this Paul Reed Smith chap knows what he's doing after all........ I think I'll leave those caps alone for a while and see how we get along at the the next gig, as is............... I am hugely impressed with this guitar BTW - the build quality is excellent! Must try out his S2 Singlecut Semi-hollow next....... mmmmm.
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Post by doctorice on Sept 19, 2014 9:05:29 GMT -7
^^^ I think the above is wise, Pete. Learn how to engage with this guitar. If it still doesn't get you there, then go the mod route. I generally like to hold some volume and tone in reserve. On my LP, it took me a while to work out how much, where on the guitar knobs and what amp settings. I've found that on some songs simply adding more treble from the guitar is sufficient to lift a solo, as it seems to also carry some volume boost. (May be just a psychoacoustic phenomenon.) On other songs, I boost GV and roll back the tone. Arrived at these and other preferences by much experimenting on my own with my guitar parts for our repertoire. It's "learning to play this guitar" as distinct from "learning to play the guitar". Still a student of both, of course, not a master
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Post by Stan on Sept 19, 2014 9:20:16 GMT -7
Must try out his S2 Singlecut Semi-hollow next....... mmmmm.
Would like a report on this, It caught my eye on the website, I'm wondering the differences too.
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