jbro
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Posts: 123
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Post by jbro on Feb 11, 2006 0:47:38 GMT -7
Hi all - this is my first post here, so I'll include a bit of history to introduce myself along with my question..
I'm a full time music teacher, luthier, and life-long guitarist. Like most of you I've been through a ton of gear over the years as my idea of "the perfect tone" has evolved. Among the amps I've bought and sold were 3 Z's - a Maz 18 non reverb head, a Maz 18 reverb 12" combo, and a Route 66.
For the last few years I've been playing mostly straight-ahead jazz, acoustic fingerstyle, and ambient/electronica. My setup has been centered around a loud, clean sound and stereo effects. I've been using an Acoustic Image Clarus and an Alessandro Italian (the first is a solid state and the latter a high end 6550/KT88 based amp). They both excell at what they do - loud, crystal clear headroom. Well now I'm starting to get back into playing heavier fusion, blues, and rock.. and I'm finding I just can't get a good overdriven sound with what I have.
The Alessandro just doesn't take to overdrive/boost pedals right.. it's built for clean and clean only, and it shows. So I'm reflecting back on all the amps I've owned, and the Route 66 really sticks out in my mind. I loved the way that amp felt and how well it responded to whatever pedals I stuck in front of it.. not to mention how it looked and the small size/weight. The whole reason I sold it in the first place was because I just couldn't get enough clean headroom out of it to use in a live setting.
So, what I want to know is.. how does the Delta 88 compare to the Route 66? Is it a similar sound and overall vibe? Does it have more headroom? More overall volume?
What I'm looking for is an amp that is reminiscent of the 66, but with enough headroom to get a semi-clean sound out of my strat in a full band scenario, and enough "oomf" to make an overdrive pedal come to life at the same volume. Could this be the Delta 88?? Any other recommendations?
Thanks in advance.
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Post by myles on Feb 11, 2006 11:34:55 GMT -7
Hi all - this is my first post here, so I'll include a bit of history to introduce myself along with my question.. I'm a full time music teacher, luthier, and life-long guitarist. Like most of you I've been through a ton of gear over the years as my idea of "the perfect tone" has evolved. Among the amps I've bought and sold were 3 Z's - a Maz 18 non reverb head, a Maz 18 reverb 12" combo, and a Route 66. For the last few years I've been playing mostly straight-ahead jazz, acoustic fingerstyle, and ambient/electronica. My setup has been centered around a loud, clean sound and stereo effects. I've been using an Acoustic Image Clarus and an Alessandro Italian (the first is a solid state and the latter a high end 6550/KT88 based amp). They both excell at what they do - loud, crystal clear headroom. Well now I'm starting to get back into playing heavier fusion, blues, and rock.. and I'm finding I just can't get a good overdriven sound with what I have. The Alessandro just doesn't take to overdrive/boost pedals right.. it's built for clean and clean only, and it shows. So I'm reflecting back on all the amps I've owned, and the Route 66 really sticks out in my mind. I loved the way that amp felt and how well it responded to whatever pedals I stuck in front of it.. not to mention how it looked and the small size/weight. The whole reason I sold it in the first place was because I just couldn't get enough clean headroom out of it to use in a live setting. So, what I want to know is.. how does the Delta 88 compare to the Route 66? Is it a similar sound and overall vibe? Does it have more headroom? More overall volume? What I'm looking for is an amp that is reminiscent of the 66, but with enough headroom to get a semi-clean sound out of my strat in a full band scenario, and enough "oomf" to make an overdrive pedal come to life at the same volume. Could this be the Delta 88?? Any other recommendations? Thanks in advance. Jbro These two amps are quite different. The Route 66 is a big, warm, round amp that is a great rock amp, blues amp, jazz amp. It is a very refined piece of work. Think of it as a BMW 745 in a manner of speaking .... does a lot of things but you can still drive twisty roads and have a blast. The Delta 88 is more of an army tank that can crash through the turns rather than twisting with them. Think of Marshall Major players of the past .... Deep Purple, Ritchie Blackmore, etc. It is a very strong and powerful amp that is pretty agressive right from the start. My own Delta 88 biased at 50mA on a bench into 8 ohms puts out 31.2 volts into 8 ohms at 400 hz. That is about 121 watts (regardless of what that "88" number indicates), so we are dealing with over three times the wattage of a Route 66. If you want a hard rock amp and are a fan of the big rigs of the past for live work this is a amazing amp to try. As one example, Michael Burks plays TWO of the Delta 88s. But even with the volume kept down at the 9:00 level or below the amp still has a lot of edge and a very hard rock / blues tone. Both the amps are stellar with any pedals. I have found no amps that compare with the Delta 88, KT-45, Route 66, or Z-28 when it comes to actually hearing what the pedal truly sounds like as the front end of the amp is very hard to overload running a pedal into that EF86 pentode. There are other EF86 front end amps that do not share this feature as the tube is not implemented as the Doc does these things.
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Post by Phil (aka Phil) on Feb 11, 2006 12:24:01 GMT -7
Myles, You forgot the Stingray in the list of EF86 front end amps that take pedals well.
PDW
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jbro
Full Member
Posts: 123
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Post by jbro on Feb 11, 2006 17:39:29 GMT -7
Jbro These two amps are quite different. The Route 66 is a big, warm, round amp that is a great rock amp, blues amp, jazz amp. It is a very refined piece of work. Think of it as a BMW 745 in a manner of speaking .... does a lot of things but you can still drive twisty roads and have a blast. The Delta 88 is more of an army tank that can crash through the turns rather than twisting with them. Think of Marshall Major players of the past .... Deep Purple, Ritchie Blackmore, etc. It is a very strong and powerful amp that is pretty agressive right from the start. My own Delta 88 biased at 50mA on a bench into 8 ohms puts out 31.2 volts into 8 ohms at 400 hz. That is about 121 watts (regardless of what that "88" number indicates), so we are dealing with over three times the wattage of a Route 66. If you want a hard rock amp and are a fan of the big rigs of the past for live work this is a amazing amp to try. As one example, Michael Burks plays TWO of the Delta 88s. But even with the volume kept down at the 9:00 level or below the amp still has a lot of edge and a very hard rock / blues tone. Both the amps are stellar with any pedals. I have found no amps that compare with the Delta 88, KT-45, Route 66, or Z-28 when it comes to actually hearing what the pedal truly sounds like as the front end of the amp is very hard to overload running a pedal into that EF86 pentode. There are other EF86 front end amps that do not share this feature as the tube is not implemented as the Doc does these things. Thanks for your reply. Hmmm, the description on Z's site and the reviews at Harmony Central had me thinking this was the amp I was looking for.. but now from what you've said I'm not so sure. Z describes it as "designed to output 32 watts of the fullest, sustaining, 3 dimensional clean tones this side of a 100 watt Plexi"...and goes on to say..."The cleaner settings are perfect for single speaker cab, smaller club usage along with a nice overdrive pedal. This will allow you to take control of a smaller stage, with a compact sized amp setup." - This is exactly what I want to do. The HC reviews also rave about the clean tones. But now from your description it sounds like the Delta will be too edgy/aggressive for my application, even at lower volumes. Now I'm confused! If only I could have squeezed more headroom out of the 66, I would have just stuck with it all along. Maybe I should look into the KT45, although I've never heard an EL34 amp that I've really liked.. argh!
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Post by myles on Feb 12, 2006 11:49:05 GMT -7
Myles, You forgot the Stingray in the list of EF86 front end amps that take pedals well. PDW You are right. I forgot.
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jbro
Full Member
Posts: 123
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Post by jbro on Feb 12, 2006 14:46:57 GMT -7
Myles, it certainly seems like you have a lot of experience with Z amps and I appreciate your help. Can you recommend one that might fit my application? I'm trying to get all the input I can here since I don't have a dealer near me and I need a new amp. At this point it seems the Delta and the KT45 are the only models with enough headroom for me.. is this a correct assumption?
What I took from your initial response was that the Delta isn't a good choice for both jazz/fusion "cleans" and rock tones with an overdrive pedal, although from what Z described on his site that sounds like what it was designed to do. You can see why I'm confused.. and I haven't found any sound clips anywhere, so any further light you can shed on this topic would be very helpful to me. I'd also like to hear your take on any other models that might be better for what I'm looking to do.
Sorry if this is going slightly off-topic in the Delta 88 forum, just trying to do some research and I'd like for my new amp to be a Z!
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Post by taswegian on Feb 12, 2006 20:19:12 GMT -7
I'm sure there are things you can do with either amp by changing V2 or rectifiers to get them really clean and do what you want. eg:
More clean headroom in a Route 66 ....
12AY7 in V2. Or even more .... 12AU7.
I'm sure you could get the Delta with max clean headroom too.
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Post by myles on Feb 13, 2006 11:26:25 GMT -7
Myles, it certainly seems like you have a lot of experience with Z amps and I appreciate your help. Can you recommend one that might fit my application? I'm trying to get all the input I can here since I don't have a dealer near me and I need a new amp. At this point it seems the Delta and the KT45 are the only models with enough headroom for me.. is this a correct assumption? What I took from your initial response was that the Delta isn't a good choice for both jazz/fusion "cleans" and rock tones with an overdrive pedal, although from what Z described on his site that sounds like what it was designed to do. You can see why I'm confused.. and I haven't found any sound clips anywhere, so any further light you can shed on this topic would be very helpful to me. I'd also like to hear your take on any other models that might be better for what I'm looking to do. Sorry if this is going slightly off-topic in the Delta 88 forum, just trying to do some research and I'd like for my new amp to be a Z! At this point it seems the Delta and the KT45 are the only models with enough headroom for me.. is this a correct assumption?Nope. Is is a matter of how much clean output level you truly need. The MAZ 38 and Mazerati have a lot of clean headroom. The Z-28 has great clean headroom, and even the Carmen Ghia has wonderful clean tones at lower levels. It is a question of what size venue are you going to play un-miked? The Delta 88 has a rock edge at all levels.
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Post by myles on Feb 13, 2006 11:27:37 GMT -7
I'm sure there are things you can do with either amp by changing V2 or rectifiers to get them really clean and do what you want. eg: More clean headroom in a Route 66 .... 12AY7 in V2. Or even more .... 12AU7. I'm sure you could get the Delta with max clean headroom too. Yes in some ways but the Delta 88 has the clean tones that are more edgy .... think of the cleans of a Marshall vs the cleans of a Twin Reverb. Different.
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Post by taswegian on Feb 13, 2006 19:05:02 GMT -7
Man, this (Delta 88) must be a killer rock amp with a decent boost or overdrive pedal in front!!! Sorry, I'm hijacking this post!
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Post by groovergeorge on Feb 14, 2006 3:05:56 GMT -7
For what it's worth guys, I'd have to agree with Myles in saying the size of the venue and the amount of patrons your playing to regulalry, should be your major factor. Choice of valves are a major tone shaper, speakers and cabinets are another.
If you love the cleans of Dave Gilmour and The Who and have ever played an old HiWatt then for what it's worth the KT45 could be your amp. match it up with a pair of Fanes in a Z best cab and your laughing.
"KEEP ON ROCKIN IN THE FREE WORLD"
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Post by JASON (aka jgleaton) on Feb 14, 2006 7:28:38 GMT -7
Jbro, I really get alot of great clean headroom through my MAZ 38 SR.... using the low input and the settings found posted in several places on the Maz sr section of this forum (by BW..and others, etc) personally I think the SR could do what your looking for... mine can get a big nice smooth clean tone.... pretty and can get some hair on it if ya need it with that setting...nice lows too, much better than the JR and can stay a lot cleaner louder than the JR if your familiar with that amp.... ALSO NOW that the stingray is out (or whatever it is gonna be called....) you may want to check THAT one out... according to doc it does the CLEAN thing WELL and should take pedals (ef-86) and according to madison (sheck out the sound clip he posted) it sounds fat too..... it might be just the amp your lookin for?? and I know you said your not anywhere near a Z dealer but it may be worth it to ya to make a road trip cause an amp you weren't even thinkin of (like a mazarati) might blow you away as exacty what your lookin for... maybe your close to another forum member with a few amps you could try out, come on down to bama and you can give mine a whirl..... ;D sorry I probably just confused you even more, supposed to be helpin NARROW the list and not EXPAND it right..... but I'd try a MAZ SR for clean headroom "live" ....FWIW, I also think the Prescription ES gets a great clean sound and it is LOUD but it does have it's distinctive (wonderful) SOUND..... JMHO Jason ps.. if you liked the Route 66 I wonder if there might be a tube pre-amp change that you could make to get you " that little more you needed"... if it was close to where you needed to be , maybe myles can help you with that if you didn't try swapping out different power tubes/ pre-amp tubes before you got rid of your other route 66.... also a different speaker/ set of speakers/ cabinet might help for that amp... worth a try if you really liked THAT amp....might give just what YOU need out of it... hey if I really liked it I wouldn't rule out getting 2 route 66's and run em together??? I think ROSCOENYC (Eric Ambel) on this forum ran 2 Maz 18's in a setup...
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Post by myles on Feb 14, 2006 11:34:49 GMT -7
Man, this (Delta 88) must be a killer rock amp with a decent boost or overdrive pedal in front!!! Sorry, I'm hijacking this post! There is always talk in this forum about touch sensitivity, balance, articulation, chime, and many other things like those sorts of descriptors. But ... sometimes folks venture into the area of Richie Blackmore or Whitesnake. Hard rock tones, power chords and levels where the pick attack before the note is a loud and distinct and most sub 30 watt amps deliver as their primary harmonic content. This is where the Delta 88 shines and with a TS808 or TS9 pedal you are right smack in the middle of hard rock tones. With a Marshall 4x12 cab loaded with greenbacks driven to their limit it is a sound (and feel) that is not easily forgotten.
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Post by myles on Feb 14, 2006 11:41:56 GMT -7
For what it's worth guys, I'd have to agree with Myles in saying the size of the venue and the amount of patrons your playing to regulalry, should be your major factor. Choice of valves are a major tone shaper, speakers and cabinets are another. If you love the cleans of Dave Gilmour and The Who and have ever played an old HiWatt then for what it's worth the KT45 could be your amp. match it up with a pair of Fanes in a Z best cab and your laughing. "KEEP ON ROCKIN IN THE FREE WORLD" I find the KT-45 has more of the Hiwatt cleans on tap and when pushed it also can get in the Vox AC-50 territory. It is a different amp than the Delta 88. They are both amazing pieces of work but the 88 is more agressive right from the get go. The KT-45 is, to my thinking, a more versitile amp than the Delta 88 but if hard core rock and agressive blues with a crunch tone ala Marshall-isque is your love then you should go to a store that has a Delta 88 and crank it to the point of moving effects off the shelves from the shear level of the amp in the display cases! Don't worry ... if the police show up it will be to compliment you on the tone if you can play at all! Even if you are a hacker on the guitar like me, with enough level even I am somebody that can be tolerated
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Post by myles on Feb 14, 2006 11:47:31 GMT -7
Jbro, I really get alot of great clean headroom through my MAZ 38 SR.... using the low input and the settings found posted in several places on the Maz sr section of this forum (by BW..and others, etc) personally I think the SR could do what your looking for... mine can get a big nice smooth clean tone.... pretty and can get some hair on it if ya need it with that setting...nice lows too, much better than the JR and can stay a lot cleaner louder than the JR if your familiar with that amp.... ALSO NOW that the stingray is out (or whatever it is gonna be called....) you may want to check THAT one out... according to doc it does the CLEAN thing WELL and should take pedals (ef-86) and according to madison (sheck out the sound clip he posted) it sounds fat too..... it might be just the amp your lookin for?? and I know you said your not anywhere near a Z dealer but it may be worth it to ya to make a road trip cause an amp you weren't even thinkin of (like a mazarati) might blow you away as exacty what your lookin for... maybe your close to another forum member with a few amps you could try out, come on down to bama and you can give mine a whirl..... ;D sorry I probably just confused you even more, supposed to be helpin NARROW the list and not EXPAND it right..... but I'd try a MAZ SR for clean headroom "live" ....FWIW, I also think the Prescription ES gets a great clean sound and it is LOUD but it does have it's distinctive (wonderful) SOUND..... JMHO Jason ps.. if you liked the Route 66 I wonder if there might be a tube pre-amp change that you could make to get you " that little more you needed"... if it was close to where you needed to be , maybe myles can help you with that if you didn't try swapping out different power tubes/ pre-amp tubes before you got rid of your other route 66.... also a different speaker/ set of speakers/ cabinet might help for that amp... worth a try if you really liked THAT amp....might give just what YOU need out of it... hey if I really liked it I wouldn't rule out getting 2 route 66's and run em together??? I think JZguitar on this forum ran 2 Maz 18's in a setup... There are some fun things that can be done with the Route 66 as far as bias settings and phase inverter swappage. I do know a fellow with a pair of Route 66's ... he went that route after seeing Michael Burks with his duet of Delta 88s. Two Route 66's is another one of those tones that would be hard to forget. With a few basic pedals terminating into a stereo chorus or delay feeding two 66's you will have all the clean headroom you want (and it will also be thick and rich and full bodied at any level) but you can also have some moderate rock and crunch blues tones with something like a Keeley modded Boss Blues driver (or Analog Man modded one), and then use a Zen Drive for your next level up the agression chain followed by something like a Metal Zone or ultra high gain pedal and voila ... make the metal guys cry with envy!
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Post by rogerbiggerstaff on Mar 20, 2007 10:07:36 GMT -7
I still find my Delta 88 touch sensitive. It's deceptive actually. If you play with a lighter touch, you get very warm, round, thick tones like Wind Cries Mary, and if you dig in it crunches beautifully. It's also easy to get smooth, singing lead tones.
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Post by ironman on Mar 20, 2007 19:55:06 GMT -7
amen brother delta88 will wash your tone blues away. michaelburks
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