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Post by gitaryzt1985 on Jul 26, 2013 8:45:07 GMT -7
I currently have a Maz 18 NR. I bought the Maz online without trying it under the understanding that the Master volume would allow me to crank the preamp and get some nice overdrive at lower volumes....not so. Not a big deal, but I'm wanting to switch to a head and cab setup and thought about selling the Maz 18 for something from Mesa Boogie...no so anymore, the Z tone is just amazing and I think that would be a mistake.
moving on to the M12, do you guys think it would take pedals better than the Maz? Would it have more headroom? If I'm not going to be getting the Z crunch at low volumes, I at least need more headroom to run my pedals. I know that sound crazy, but the Maz is right there in the middle. Not enough crunch by itself at home, and not enough headroom when gigging. Would the M12 provide more headroom so that I can just use pedals with gobs of clean tone?
If I sold the Maz Combo I'd get an M12 head and two 1x12 cabs. Thoughts?
I know the main answer is going to be "brake lite", but I just really don't want to go that route because it still probably wouldn't be quiet enough for my needs at home.
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Post by jesslm02 on Jul 26, 2013 9:14:51 GMT -7
The M12 won't be as loud as the Maz, but it does have more headroom at the same volume knob positions. The M12 can still be pretty clean with full volume depending on how you have the tone controls set. The headroom on the M12 really makes great as a pedal platform. You could also use higher efficiency speakers and get more headroom if needed.
Do you mic up when gigging?
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Post by gitaryzt1985 on Jul 26, 2013 9:28:10 GMT -7
I currently don't gig. When I do, it's generally in a church scene but my wife and I are looking for a new church and I would hopefully join whatever music program they have. Enough of that I have a PRS SC245 and it starts breaking up very quickly. I love the Maz, I really do, but I just wonder if the M12 would sound more full and fat with pedals?
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Post by Mark (Basement Enthusiast) on Jul 26, 2013 10:00:36 GMT -7
"...full and fat with pedals" kinda sounds like a Z-28, actually. I think it moreso depends upon what path you want to take in order to achieve your ultimate goal:
M12 = solid tonal foundation which will let the pedals steer its sonic direction (ie. a "pedal platform") Z-28 = full & fat most of the time, and will break up on its own but it'll be loud when it does
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Post by rickc007 on Jul 26, 2013 11:07:59 GMT -7
Have both, like the M-12 much better as a home amp GREAT clean tone, and pedal platform
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Post by Abandoned on Jul 26, 2013 15:40:43 GMT -7
I had a Maz, liked it very decently. Still was looking for better cleans and smoother. I directly compared the Maz and the M12... M12 won in a big way to me. I like its clean headroom and clean tones more, and I like its drive tones more.
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Post by gitaryzt1985 on Jul 29, 2013 5:16:42 GMT -7
I had a Maz, liked it very decently. Still was looking for better cleans and smoother. I directly compared the Maz and the M12... M12 won in a big way to me. I like its clean headroom and clean tones more, and I like its drive tones more. I really think this is the direction I'd like to go. The Maz is great, it's wonderful actually. But, I really want to make the move to a head and cab set up and I think that the M12 would be better with pedals. It's not that I don't like the Maz, because I really do, but it's just right there in the middle where there is not enough breakup for home use and not enough headroom for gigging. I've I'm not going to get the Maz to break up at home I might as well have something with lower wattage and more headroom. Might have to consider this!
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Post by Abandoned on Jul 29, 2013 6:11:19 GMT -7
I had a Maz, liked it very decently. Still was looking for better cleans and smoother. I directly compared the Maz and the M12... M12 won in a big way to me. I like its clean headroom and clean tones more, and I like its drive tones more. I really think this is the direction I'd like to go. The Maz is great, it's wonderful actually. But, I really want to make the move to a head and cab set up and I think that the M12 would be better with pedals. It's not that I don't like the Maz, because I really do, but it's just right there in the middle where there is not enough breakup for home use and not enough headroom for gigging. I've I'm not going to get the Maz to break up at home I might as well have something with lower wattage and more headroom. Might have to consider this! Yeah it really did the trick for me. 100%.
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Post by gitaryzt1985 on Jul 31, 2013 6:13:46 GMT -7
I really think this is the direction I'd like to go. The Maz is great, it's wonderful actually. But, I really want to make the move to a head and cab set up and I think that the M12 would be better with pedals. It's not that I don't like the Maz, because I really do, but it's just right there in the middle where there is not enough breakup for home use and not enough headroom for gigging. I've I'm not going to get the Maz to break up at home I might as well have something with lower wattage and more headroom. Might have to consider this! Yeah it really did the trick for me. 100%. Would you say the cleans are more full, lush, but still chimey? I love my Maz, but only with the treble and cut WAAAAY down.
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Post by Abandoned on Jul 31, 2013 20:58:04 GMT -7
Yeah it really did the trick for me. 100%. Would you say the cleans are more full, lush, but still chimey? I love my Maz, but only with the treble and cut WAAAAY down. IMO & IME ... yes absolutely. It might not throw that sound super far... Cuz it's 12 watts, but it throws it far enough for me.
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Post by pintail78 on Aug 6, 2013 18:40:20 GMT -7
Maz=too many knobs, front end is not too my liking
M12, Z-28= best front end on the Z amps, simple to use, and incredible Z tones.
I would say for the lower watts its the Z-28 or the M12, add a brakelite and some pedals and your ready to go for almost everything. Bigger venue, use a Z-best and mic it up.
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Post by gitaryzt1985 on Aug 9, 2013 5:14:01 GMT -7
Thanks for the insight guys! This still plagues me haha. I really want the M12, I just worry about volume. I know it would be loud enough to gig, but is it really that much quieter than the Maz 18? There are not enough convincing vids out there to give me the guts to sell the Maz 18 and get the M12. I like the Maz, and I love the tone, but I think the M12 would sound better with pedals for metal, and I think the head and cab setup is the route I want to go too.
Time will tell. I could sell the Maz and get a used M12 head and save some cash, but I'd probably want a Z best down the road and that's more money
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Post by limenine on Aug 9, 2013 17:01:40 GMT -7
One thing that doesn't get bounced around enough is that the efficiency of your speaker plays a HUGE part in how loud your amp is. A plus or minus 3db change in efficiency is equivilant to doubling or halving the wattage of an amp.
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Post by gitaryzt1985 on Aug 11, 2013 14:10:52 GMT -7
That's a great point. I'm about 90% decided Im gonna make the change. Just gotta figure out what color and work on selling the Maz.
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Post by mazmaster on Aug 11, 2013 20:07:32 GMT -7
I have both and, I gotta' say, I can dial the Maz 18 NR to sound very much like the M12, but the M12 cannot cover all the tones the Maz can do. However, I use both as pedal platforms and side-by-side into the same cab, can get them sounding REALLY close, but the knobs on both are set totally differently to get there. And, the feel and touch is different because of the wattage difference. The M12 reaches its OD pedal sweet spot sooner, which is why I use it a lot more often. It gets into that juicy, perfectly forgiving OD pedal range for every gig I've done with it. But, I often struggled getting the Maz 18 up into that range because it was always too loud. At lower volumes, it was still a little too taut and stiff. Its sweet range is much louder. It DOES get there, but it's much louder at that point. Also, to get the same kind of preamp headroom as the M12 (at equal percentages of max clean power amp headroom per amp), the Maz preamp volume had to be pretty low, like 9:00, while then using the Master to control output level.
I think both take pedals equally well, but the Maz is much trickier to dial in. You cannot use your eyes at all when moving the knobs. Gotta' play and listen. With the M12, you basically plug and play and it doesn't take long to get your ideal tone out of it. I find the key with the Maz is maxing the Cut and then using Treble to adjust for overall brightness. I usually end up between 9:00-10:30.
To my ears, they can both be bright with the wrong tubes and speakers. The old JJ Groove Tubes EL84 #6s were/are the best of modern production, IMO. Early 60s long-plate GE 12ax7s are best in the preamp, with modern JJs a decent 2nd place. Gotta' use warmer speakers too, IMO. WGS Blackhawk HP, G12-65 types, Eminence RWB, Cannabis Rex, etc, seem to work much better than G12H-30, V30, EV, etc. None of this is NECESSARY to get perfect tones but it just gives you more usable range on the Treble/Cut knobs.
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Post by mazmaster on Aug 11, 2013 20:11:03 GMT -7
One thing that doesn't get bounced around enough is that the efficiency of your speaker plays a HUGE part in how loud your amp is. A plus or minus 3db change in efficiency is equivilant to doubling or halving the wattage of an amp. Exactly!!! I mention this all the time to folks considering the M12, but neglected it here, assuming it was a head-to-head between Maz 18 and M12. The Maz 18 will always have more headroom when both are using the same speaker. But, yeah, moving from a 100dB speak to a 97dB speak will cut your effective clean headroom wattage by one half.
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Post by gitaryzt1985 on Aug 12, 2013 6:44:20 GMT -7
One thing that doesn't get bounced around enough is that the efficiency of your speaker plays a HUGE part in how loud your amp is. A plus or minus 3db change in efficiency is equivilant to doubling or halving the wattage of an amp. Exactly!!! I mention this all the time to folks considering the M12, but neglected it here, assuming it was a head-to-head between Maz 18 and M12. The Maz 18 will always have more headroom when both are using the same speaker. But, yeah, moving from a 100dB speak to a 97dB speak will cut your effective clean headroom wattage by one half. Very good and convincing info in both of your posts. I don't gig much, and when I do it is in a church environment where the M12 would probably be too loud still at 50% volume. Getting it to the sweet spot is more important than getting drive so to speak. I've owned the Ghia as well, and I ran it no higher than 9:00-10:00, even when gigging. The Maz's volume stays at noon, with the Master barely on and anything more becomes too loud. I think that I need headroom more than volume when gigging quite honestly. Heck, I gigged a Marshall Class 5 for 2 years. So, I'm thinking that I can sell the Maz 18, and get an M12 head and pocket a couple hundred tops. I have a Blonde 1x12 cab and can use it with the Cannabis Rex speaker and probably get some fantastic tones. The Ghia is honestly still an option as well. I would ultimately try to get an empty Z combo cab to have in case I started gigging more heavily.
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Post by gitaryzt1985 on Aug 12, 2013 9:02:27 GMT -7
Last question! How do you guys feel about not having a mids knob? Do you feel it cuts through as good as a Maz??? I think the lack of a mids suits me fine, but does anyone feel they need it?
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Post by jesslm02 on Aug 12, 2013 9:52:35 GMT -7
I was worried about that at first also. But once I go the amp, I knew it wasn't going to be an issue. The mids are there. It cut's through great IMO, and can be adjusted with speaker choice to some degree if needed. Also, the bass and treble knobs can be adjusted to account for more or less mids. Lower the bass and treble, you get more mids. Raise them, and you get less mids. It's a perception thing, but it works. This is just how I view the bass/treble only amps. It seems to work OK for me for the most part. The M12's controls are really useful IMO.
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Post by mazmaster on Aug 12, 2013 20:45:21 GMT -7
Exactly!!! I mention this all the time to folks considering the M12, but neglected it here, assuming it was a head-to-head between Maz 18 and M12. The Maz 18 will always have more headroom when both are using the same speaker. But, yeah, moving from a 100dB speak to a 97dB speak will cut your effective clean headroom wattage by one half. With the Maz Volume at 12:00, you have killed all the headroom you're looking for. That setting will allow-break up with single coils when you strum hard. If you want headroom, you need to turn the Volume down to the 9:00 area and turn the Master up to get the volume you need...and there will be plenty of that left, even with the Volume at 9:00. Ultimately, the M12 will have LESS headroom than the Maz because it has less wattage and uses a 5Y3 vs. 5AR4. Another way of saying this is that you can get WAY more clean volume out of the Maz 18 than the M12. That all said, I realize a single EF86 is capable of passing larger voltage swings than a 12AX7, but the Maz uses two of them before the PI (vs. one EF86 before the PI in the M12) and you can gradually ramp it up without distorting those two input stages while still getting compression in the Maz output stage, just like the M12 does. So, I have found that you can mimic he M12 preamp headroom in the Maz 18 by just running the Volume low and then using the Master as your "Volume knob". At that point, the difference between the amps (aside from basic voicing) is that the Maz will get much louder before its power amp starts to compress and then audibly break up.
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Post by mazmaster on Aug 12, 2013 21:02:35 GMT -7
Last question! How do you guys feel about not having a mids knob? Do you feel it cuts through as good as a Maz??? I think the lack of a mids suits me fine, but does anyone feel they need it? I don't think it limits the M12 for any of my applications but that opinion is totally subjective. The Mid knob along with the Cut and Master volume on the Maz does provide a huge range of tones. Like I said above, I can dial my Maz to sound REALLY darn close to the M12, especially if I attenuate the Maz about 3-6dB, but I can get tones out of the Maz 18 that the M12 just cannot get. Where the M12 really shines for me is that it's really simple and light, it's voiced to handle OD pedals w/o much fuss and it lets me run the amp at a point where the power amp is working harder than it would be at the same volume on the Maz. So, I don't need attenuation to hit the sweet spot for any of the gigs I've done with it so far. Oh, there's one more cool thing about the M12 that I haven't heard yet out of my Maz, although it may in there with different setting. With my D-style pedals, and the HI input setting, I can get a little bit of that Robben Ford chirp thing going on. You can here it here at various points, but especially after about 0:50 at the end. This is with a WGS Blackhawk HP speaker but the "chirp" is more prevalent with G12-65s (which isn't a surprise, given that's what RF uses). soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11793615
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Post by gitaryzt1985 on Aug 13, 2013 8:19:59 GMT -7
Last question! How do you guys feel about not having a mids knob? Do you feel it cuts through as good as a Maz??? I think the lack of a mids suits me fine, but does anyone feel they need it? I don't think it limits the M12 for any of my applications but that opinion is totally subjective. The Mid knob along with the Cut and Master volume on the Maz does provide a huge range of tones. Like I said above, I can dial my Maz to sound REALLY darn close to the M12, especially if I attenuate the Maz about 3-6dB, but I can get tones out of the Maz 18 that the M12 just cannot get. Where the M12 really shines for me is that it's really simple and light, it's voiced to handle OD pedals w/o much fuss and it lets me run the amp at a point where the power amp is working harder than it would be at the same volume on the Maz. So, I don't need attenuation to hit the sweet spot for any of the gigs I've done with it so far. Oh, there's one more cool thing about the M12 that I haven't heard yet out of my Maz, although it may in there with different setting. With my D-style pedals, and the HI input setting, I can get a little bit of that Robben Ford chirp thing going on. You can here it here at various points, but especially after about 0:50 at the end. This is with a WGS Blackhawk HP speaker but the "chirp" is more prevalent with G12-65s (which isn't a surprise, given that's what RF uses). soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11793615Wonderful clip! What a tone! Ok, so I played the Maz last night with a new speaker, an Eminence Cannabis Rex. Man, that speaker really softened up the Maz and added bass and some nice woody mids. I'm loving the Z 1x12 cab, Dr Z has got the best sounding cabs period! The issues I'm still having with the Maz, while maybe more preference than issues, are that it's ferociously loud, and still pretty darn bright. Not a "bad" bright and certainly not harsh, but still I'm running the treble at 10:00 and the cut at 9:00 and it can get crisp fast! I'm working on selling the Maz now, so if it sells for a price that won't make me cry, I'll be getting the M12 soon and I'll just pocket some change for a pedal or two!
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Post by mazmaster on Aug 13, 2013 10:10:48 GMT -7
What tubes are you running with the Maz? They make a huge difference regarding brightness. I max the Cut on mine (because OD pedals sound bigger and fatter that way) and then run the Treble down around 9:00-10:00. Don't be afraid to turn the Treble down more if needed! FWIW, I find the M12 to be a bright amp as well. I run my Treble down in the 9:30-10:00 range. In fact, the way I dial the Treble in this amp is to turn it below 9:00 and inch it up in tiny increments until it just starts to chirp with my high gain OD pedal on with the bridge HB. Then I go back and forth with cleans and other pedals and PUPs and maybe tweak it just a bit.
Also, keep in mind the Maz 18 gets brighter as the Volume knob is turned clockwise.
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Post by gitaryzt1985 on Aug 13, 2013 12:47:08 GMT -7
What tubes are you running with the Maz? They make a huge difference regarding brightness. I max the Cut on mine (because OD pedals sound bigger and fatter that way) and then run the Treble down around 9:00-10:00. Don't be afraid to turn the Treble down more if needed! FWIW, I find the M12 to be a bright amp as well. I run my Treble down in the 9:30-10:00 range. In fact, the way I dial the Treble in this amp is to turn it below 9:00 and inch it up in tiny increments until it just starts to chirp with my high gain OD pedal on with the bridge HB. Then I go back and forth with cleans and other pedals and PUPs and maybe tweak it just a bit. Also, keep in mind the Maz 18 gets brighter as the Volume knob is turned clockwise. Great info! I really think it's less about brightness and more about power. Do I want an amp that I keep choked at minimal volume levels 95% of the time, or do I want an amp that I can open up a bit more and not piss off the family. I run new production Mullards with the Maz. I prefer them to the stock tubes that were in it. Please, do not misunderstand me and think I don't love my Maz, because I do really love the Maz. But, I'm all about practicality, and if the M12 will make me happier at home and for the 3-4 times I gig per year, I'm all for it!
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Post by mazmaster on Aug 14, 2013 14:41:35 GMT -7
What tubes are you running with the Maz? They make a huge difference regarding brightness. I max the Cut on mine (because OD pedals sound bigger and fatter that way) and then run the Treble down around 9:00-10:00. Don't be afraid to turn the Treble down more if needed! FWIW, I find the M12 to be a bright amp as well. I run my Treble down in the 9:30-10:00 range. In fact, the way I dial the Treble in this amp is to turn it below 9:00 and inch it up in tiny increments until it just starts to chirp with my high gain OD pedal on with the bridge HB. Then I go back and forth with cleans and other pedals and PUPs and maybe tweak it just a bit. Also, keep in mind the Maz 18 gets brighter as the Volume knob is turned clockwise. Great info! I really think it's less about brightness and more about power. Do I want an amp that I keep choked at minimal volume levels 95% of the time, or do I want an amp that I can open up a bit more and not piss off the family. I run new production Mullards with the Maz. I prefer them to the stock tubes that were in it. Please, do not misunderstand me and think I don't love my Maz, because I do really love the Maz. But, I'm all about practicality, and if the M12 will make me happier at home and for the 3-4 times I gig per year, I'm all for it! Then, I think you're on the right track! Just trying to sort out exactly why you're moving away from the Maz and towards the M12 so that you won't be disappointed once you get there. Power and simplicity are excellent reasons to make the move. I would need an attenuator for most gigs to get the Maz 18 exactly where I like it for my needs...and I play some very loud gigs! Before there were decent attenuators available, I certainly did feel like the Maz was too choked off at many gigs...like a Ferrari that just took spins around the block. But, the M12 seems to have the perfect power level and voicing to allow me to just plop it down, plug in and play for 95% or more of my gigs, rehearsals, etc. But, I'll never sell my Maz 18. There are always gigs which will require it and I have a few excellent attenuators when needed. Plus, I'm just too emotionally attached to it and it sounds too good to let go of!
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Post by gitaryzt1985 on Aug 14, 2013 18:16:37 GMT -7
Great info! I really think it's less about brightness and more about power. Do I want an amp that I keep choked at minimal volume levels 95% of the time, or do I want an amp that I can open up a bit more and not piss off the family. I run new production Mullards with the Maz. I prefer them to the stock tubes that were in it. Please, do not misunderstand me and think I don't love my Maz, because I do really love the Maz. But, I'm all about practicality, and if the M12 will make me happier at home and for the 3-4 times I gig per year, I'm all for it! Then, I think you're on the right track! Just trying to sort out exactly why you're moving away from the Maz and towards the M12 so that you won't be disappointed once you get there. Power and simplicity are excellent reasons to make the move. I would need an attenuator for most gigs to get the Maz 18 exactly where I like it for my needs...and I play some very loud gigs! Before there were decent attenuators available, I certainly did feel like the Maz was too choked off at many gigs...like a Ferrari that just took spins around the block. But, the M12 seems to have the perfect power level and voicing to allow me to just plop it down, plug in and play for 95% or more of my gigs, rehearsals, etc. But, I'll never sell my Maz 18. There are always gigs which will require it and I have a few excellent attenuators when needed. Plus, I'm just too emotionally attached to it and it sounds too good to let go of! Thanks, but I have a question for you!!! You said you still love your Maz, but if hypothetically you needed to keep just one, the Maz or M12, which would you keep. Let's say for this, you will never need the power of the Maz. Just want to get a feel for if I'm making the right decision getting rid of a killer amp for another
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Post by gitaryzt1985 on Aug 15, 2013 8:04:00 GMT -7
I dunno guys, I keep having second thoughts on this and wonder if I'm letting my Gas for an M12 do the talking.
The Maz is such a great amp, and I really don't have any complaints with it. Would I like something quieter for home use? Sure, of course! But, it still isn't going to be that much quieter I suppose.
I'd just hate to get rid of the Maz without testing out the M12.
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Post by gitaryzt1985 on Aug 15, 2013 9:33:30 GMT -7
Guys, I know I'm posting like a bandit on this thread, but I've got another way to look at this...
I play a lot of different music....all with pedals. One thing that got me frustrated with the Maz and got me looking at amps was that I play a lot of metal. I haven't found a pedal combo that gets me where I want to be without dialing the treble and cut WAY down, and then even then the tone becomes "middy" to my ears. Again guys, not a BAD TONE, just not what I'm looking for.
So, even though I'm in love with the Maz, it's already got me looking at Mesa's, and now the M12 for the pedal flexibility. I wonder if the M12 would work better as a "metal" amp with pedals than the Maz with pedals???
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Post by skinvoyager on Oct 11, 2013 11:18:28 GMT -7
I used to own a Maz 18 as well. It just felt too stiff for me. Maybe it's because I could never really open it up and let it breathe. But it felt like it was always fighting me and my attack. The M12 feels a lot more organic to me.
I'm not a metal player, but I do indulge myself in some metal tones every now and then for fun. With an MXR Super Badass Distortion (mids scooped a bit) it's instant metal goodness with the M12, especially through a larger cab. For me there's no tone you can get on the Maz that you can't get on the M12 with an OCD pedal, and like I siad, it's a more natural sounding amp to my ears.
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Post by crabby on Nov 11, 2013 0:13:30 GMT -7
I actually traded my Maz18NR combo for an M12 head and matching Z combo cab with a Blue and I could not be happier. I don't gig much but with my pedals, I can play at home and achieve some absolutely amazing tones without shaking the walls down. The Maz was fantastic but the M12 is just more usable for me. I have no regrets at this point and my rig has no lack of volume. Amazing what a 12 watt amp and a 15 watt speaker can put out!
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