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Post by billyguitar on Jan 14, 2007 16:16:09 GMT -7
It shouldn't hurt to connect to the 8 ohm tap but you won't hear the full tonality of the amp and you'll lose a little bit of power from the mismatch. A few watts is all, tube amps are different than solid state where you would lose 1/2 of your power. You could rewire the cab to 4 ohms. I would ask the Suhr Badger people about the mismatched impedance to be sure you wouldn't do any harm. I'm just talking from a Fender and other well known amp point of view. I don't actually know anything at all about your amp. You should correct/modify the title of your thread to say '16', not 6.
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Post by skydog958 on Jan 14, 2007 16:30:43 GMT -7
There's been discussion before on the forum...all we know is the higher the ohms, the more wiring of of transformer is used. Whether this sounds better or not is up to the listener.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 14, 2007 18:20:02 GMT -7
Please be patient with my ignorance I bought a 4x12 cabinet that has 4 - 15 ohm Celestion Heritage G12H's . . . . if the cab is described as being "Wired to original specs with 16 ohm total impedance" what would that make it, a 16 OHM overall cabinet? If so, how would I connect it to a Suhr Badger that only has 4 or 8 ohm outs ? Thank you . . . . I've written a little tutorial on this subject - see blog.strayca.com/?cat=5. One thing you can do with all 16 ohm speakers is wire them all in parallel for a total load of 4 ohms. Check it out.
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Post by mward on Jan 14, 2007 18:28:54 GMT -7
You could wire the 4 16ohm speakers in that cabinet in parallel and get 4 ohms. Right now it's parallel series, 2 sets of 2 16ohm speakers in parallel for 8 ohms per set, and that is in series, giving you 16 ohms, but rewiring it so that all 4 are in parallel so you're getting 4 ohms should be easily done and you won't risk damaging your amp by plugging it into the wrong output. I've heard you can plug less ohms in but not more, I don't do it either way as I figure it's a good way to fry something.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 14, 2007 18:46:45 GMT -7
I've written a little tutorial on this subject - see blog.strayca.com/?cat=5. One thing you can do with all 16 ohm speakers is wire them all in parallel for a total load of 4 ohms. Check it out. you are my hero! my dilemma also is the possibility that an amp i am waiting for -- an Metro Amp 1968 Plexi replica ( www.metroamp.com/amps_68_100_watt.php) may only have an 16 ohm out . . . what URL from your tutorial advises how to wire 4 - 16 ohm speakers in parallel in order to have a 4 ohm -- 4x12 cabinet ? I think I found it . . . is this it ? blog.strayca.com/?cat=5Yep, that would be it. By the way, Stan turned me on to these guys, who make all sorts of gizmos to try to address these issues: tone-doctor-llc.com/pages/home.php - it could be that one device might let you address both your needs. You'd have to carefully check how their stuff works but it looks pretty good on first glance.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 14, 2007 19:09:32 GMT -7
Yep, that would be it. By the way, Stan turned me on to these guys, who make all sorts of gizmos to try to address these issues: tone-doctor-llc.com/pages/home.php - it could be that one device might let you address both your needs. You'd have to carefully check how their stuff works but it looks pretty good on first glance. I want to thank you for your rare kindness. thank you i will let you know how it turns out . . . ok ? Ha! Kindness isn't very rare around these here parts. Stick around a while and you'll see what I mean. Lots of experts here and all willing to share their knowledge freely. That's what makes this place work if you ask me.
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Post by billyguitar on Jan 14, 2007 19:33:26 GMT -7
I read in an amp book one time that at 16 ohms Marshall could use thinner and cheaper wire for hookup instead of thick wire like American 4 and 8 ohm amps used. I don't get it but that's what was written. I've read that before also about using the whole transformer when you use the 16 ohm tap and I've written it here before. I got it from Gearld Weber's books. I think it may have been Z that said with good transformers now he can't really hear a difference between the taps. i believe it was in one of the early Stingray threads.
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Post by guitarstan on Jan 14, 2007 20:50:36 GMT -7
I just bought the CabMojo Deuce from tone-doctor-llc.com/pages/home.php . . . it seems my "problem" turned into a blessing in disguise. The CabMojo Duece can: * Readily change between serial and parallel interconnection of the speaker pair for amazing tonal variety. Even greater tonal flexibility arises when different speaker types are mixed, as one can readily switch between either speaker running standalone. * Run both speakers, in either parallel or series configuration, in a large venue where more volume is need. Drop down to one speaker when less volume is needed, without losing the tonal characteristics associated with speaker breakup. * Use your combo amp as an extension cab for an amp head or another combo amp. Use both speakers in a stereo setup, with one amp driving one speaker and another amp driving the other speaker. Also allows parallel daisy chaining of up to two other cabs to your combo amp cab. Go check it out. The TONEDOCTOR was very helpful in explaining and emailing me almost immediately after I initially emailed him to ask about his product and my 16ohm cab and amps that will now have great versatility Another DOCTOR cures my ills Glad you followed up on their products. I stumbled across their web site and thought to myself "how cool is this!" Better send it to my tech buddies for further evaluation and assessment. Seriously, it looks like a winner to me assuming there isn't too much signal pollution with the switching components!? Let us know if you end up experimenting with any of the products, I am most curious. Stan
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Post by mudskipper on Jan 15, 2007 8:54:10 GMT -7
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Post by tonedoctorllc on Jan 15, 2007 8:55:42 GMT -7
Hi, ToneDoctor here from ToneDoctor LLC. www.tone-doctor-llc.comJust wanted to mention that signal path integrity is the utmost consideration in the design of all of our products. All construction is ptp hand wired, using solid core oxygen free copper wire, and silver solder on all solder joints. All components are discrete, overdesigned components of the highest quality (ie the switches we use are rated for 15 A at 230 V...thats over 3,000 watts for anyone who is counting!). Our Deuce product is available in CabMojo (closed back cabs) and ComboMojo (open back cabs and combo amps) versions. The Deuce works with two speaker loads. In a 4x12 or 4x10, you hardwire pairs of speakers first to create the two desired "fixed" loads. The Deuce will then let you select either load independently, use both in a stereo rig, use both connected in parallel, or use both connected in series. So, in a 4x12 with 16 ohm speakers, you could wire the rhs in parallel at 8 ohms and the lhs in parallel at 8 ohms. The Deuce would then let you switch between 4 ohm and 16 ohms with all four speakers running, or down to 8 ohms with just two speakers running. While this functionality is similar to what Marshall uses on some of their 4x12 cabs, I would urge you to compare the PCB construction and low cost PCB components (particularly the switch) they use to our design and construction methods. It makes a BIG difference in tonal purity and sonic integrity, for sure. Also, I discovered that with mismatched loads (different make/model speakers) there is a dramatic difference between how their series and paralle interconnections sound. The theory underlying this is explained on my website. tone-doctor-llc.com/pages/innovations/virtual-impedance.phpWhat this means is that if you use different make/model speakers in your cab and use a Deuce with it you can readily switch between four very different tones/feels....like having 4 rigs, but only taking up the space of 1 rig! Thx for listening, ToneDoctor The way it works is as follows: With the switch set in the middle position, plug into the left jack for the right or top load (note: this is on your RIGHT when you are facing the cab front!), and plug into the right jack for the left or bottom load (in a stereo setup plug one amp into each). Flip the switch to the right when you want the loads in parallel, and plug into either left or right jack. Flip the switch to left when you want series, and plug into center jack. BTW, here is a link to a cab I just finished with Bob Burt for a professional studio owner in NYC. www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=201161
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Post by kruzty on Jan 15, 2007 10:49:10 GMT -7
I could see uses for both. The Z matcher doesn't really help you with series/parallel/stereo capability. I also like the fact the CabMojo is installed in the cab, so it is one less thing to haul around and hook up. The Z-Matcher, though, you can match any impedance. I saw, for example, that the ToneDoctor combo device only takes 16 ohm input (I think the cab device has 4, 8, 16).
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Post by tonedoctorllc on Jan 15, 2007 14:46:37 GMT -7
There is an important difference to consider as well.
The Z-matcher uses a transformer, with many different taps, to do the impedance matching. This provides very significant impedance matching capabilities....much broader than those provided by the CabMojo Deuce.
On the hand, the CabMojo Deuce does not in any way change your tone or signal intergrity. Its based on purely passive switching using high quality construction and overdesigned components. In particular, it doesn't introduce any measurable new capacitance or inductance (reactance) into your load.
Since the Z-matcher uses a transformer, what you have done effectively is introduce a second output tranny into your system / amp. A transformer introduces very measureable new inductance, and also measurable new capacitance, into the system.
As many of you know, the output transformer in an amp is a very cirtical tone component, and can make or break the tone of the amp. This is why amp designers and manufacturers pay very careful attention to the output tranny, and often use high end trannys from Mercury Magnetics and the like.
My point here is that with the Z-matcher, in contrast to the Deuce, there is potential for significant change to your tone. This will depend on the transformer used in the Z matcher. It will also depend on the output transformer in your amp, as they will interact to some degree, and also will depend on whether or not your amp uses negative feedback, and a bunch of other things I won't go into here, as I am sure by now my point is clear.
I am categorically NOT saying you will NOT get good tone or results you are happy with from the Z-matcher. You may, or you may not, and it will be dependent on a bunch of things, including your ear!
I just wanted to point out that it is a very different approach, with different capabilities and also different potential issues. You need to consider both (as always!) to decide what is right for you!
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Post by tonedoctorllc on Jan 15, 2007 15:04:34 GMT -7
I could see uses for both. The Z matcher doesn't really help you with series/parallel/stereo capability. I also like the fact the CabMojo is installed in the cab, so it is one less thing to haul around and hook up. The Z-Matcher, though, you can match any impedance. I saw, for example, that the ToneDoctor combo device only takes 16 ohm input (I think the cab device has 4, 8, 16). Just to clarify, The Deuce product is available in CabMojo or ComboMojo formats, and functions in an identical fashion in each case, the only difference being the way they mount to your rig. What you are referring to is the Solo Product, which is again available in both CabMojo and ComboMojo versions (mount/install differently). The Solo allows you to use headphones and/or run a low level line out from your tube amp, for silent practicing/recording. Initially I had the Solo set up so your amp sees a 16 ohm load when you engage it for the headphones/line out, as this satisfies most folks. Since you arent driving speakers when its on, its ok to plug it into the 8 ohm output of your amp (higher load impedance is ok, lower load impedance is not!). But, since then, I have also started making the Solo in 8 ohm or 4 ohm models, when requests come in from folks for it. I like working directly with customers to meet their special needs. Thats where all my good ideas (if I have any) come from! Don't ever hesitate to contact me if you have special needs or think I may not have what you need...chances are I do, or can make it happen. To wit, this project started with a call from a customer with "special needs". You can see what happened subsequently: www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=201161
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Post by mudskipper on Jan 16, 2007 8:03:10 GMT -7
tonally will the weber rob tone from your amp? Is it transparent ? the reports on Z-Matcher has been good from the field. you might want to go on over to the Weber board and solicit some opinions. you signal does go through another transformer. so if the idea of having another device in series with your speaker output makes you cringe, i'd look elsewhere. since i've been using MASS/Load Dump, i've following Ted Weber's advice of matching up the impedance between my amp(s) and his attenuator(s) and mismatching the cab when/if i need to. it's like having an attenuator and impedance matcher in a single package.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Jan 16, 2007 9:00:14 GMT -7
The description of the Z-Matcher (the 50 and the 100 watt models) does not mention that it has a transformer inside. I feel that the description should mention TRANSFORMER. Here is the description form Webers site: The Impedance Matcher allows you to match the output impedance of your amp to impedances of speakers and cabinets that are not the same as your amp output impedance. Matches 2, 2.6, 4, 5.3, 8, and 16 ohms to 2, 2.6, 4, 5.3, 8, and 16 ohms. Includes an extra output jack and a balanced and unbalanced line out with a level adjustment. I was looking to adjust the cabinet (impedance) limitations that I have (16 ohm cab) to be able to be used with amps that have only 8 or 4 ohm outs . . . my concern was using a product like Z-Matcher and keeping the sound transparent from the amp to the cabinet . . . the description did NOT mention an internal transformer . . . what is the tonal transparency like? Is tone "robbed" from the amps true tone via the transformer of the Z-Matcher? Thanks for anyones help - You probably won't get anyone to say it "robs tone" - it is one of those gray areas where YMMV. Everyone hears something different - you may like it, and the next guy not. I think mudskipper's suggestion of checking with their forums is a good idea. I just got there at www.webervst.com/vstbbs/bbs.html
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