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Post by Strato on Aug 2, 2007 1:14:49 GMT -7
I noticed that my late 60's/early 70's 335 has some whacked out intonation. On most strings, the 12th fret is sharp when compared to 12th harmonic. To remedy this, one would lengthen the distance between the nut and the saddle, correct? The problem is, the adjustments for the intonation are already maxed out - I can't increase the length anymore. On a few strings, I was able to squeeze a little more adjustment out of it. But, most are still significantly sharp. I suppose the bridge is bowed inward a bit, Perhaps this is causing intonation problems?
Anyone have any suggestions to remedy this? This guitar still has the original nut and saddles, which I believe are bone. Maybe its time for a new nut? Will metal saddles increase sustain?
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Post by seaking on Aug 2, 2007 6:17:09 GMT -7
I just adjusted the intonation on my casino recently. You are are correct wrt lengthening the string to lower the pitch. My geetar also has the bridge leaning inward slightly, which will of course effect the intonation as you mentioned. Some saddles have maxed out on their adjustments too, as yours have. The previous owner (or possibly the factory) had reversed some of the saddles to allow more adjustment room ( the saddle points are slanted to one side so reversing them can shorten or lengthen their normal travel limits). So if yours have not been reversed, you might want to give it a try. I'm pretty new to this procedure so hopefully i haven't steered you wrong or insulted your intelligence Good luck.
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Post by rcrecelius on Aug 2, 2007 9:36:19 GMT -7
I noticed that my late 60's/early 70's 335 has some whacked out intonation. On most strings, the 12th fret is sharp when compared to 12th harmonic. To remedy this, one would lengthen the distance between the nut and the saddle, correct? The problem is, the adjustments for the intonation are already maxed out - I can't increase the length anymore. On a few strings, I was able to squeeze a little more adjustment out of it. But, most are still significantly sharp. I suppose the bridge is bowed inward a bit, Perhaps this is causing intonation problems? Anyone have any suggestions to remedy this? This guitar still has the original nut and saddles, which I believe are bone. Maybe its time for a new nut? Will metal saddles increase sustain? Like seaking says, reversing the saddle might get you there but...how are the frets? If the frets are wore out, it aint gonna play in tune no matter what you do.
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Post by Strato on Aug 2, 2007 13:26:53 GMT -7
I can't reverse the saddles... the are already slanted towards the fretboard. And... the guitar just got a refret not long ago. Perhaps the frets just need to be broken in a bit more?
The bridge is significantly bowed, perhaps I will have a tech look at it.
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Post by rcrecelius on Aug 2, 2007 13:37:01 GMT -7
I can't reverse the saddles... the are already slanted towards the fretboard. And... the guitar just got a refret not long ago. Perhaps the frets just need to be broken in a bit more? The bridge is significantly bowed, perhaps I will have a tech look at it. Are they tall or jumbo frets? Could it be you're just not used to the new frets and are pushing down too hard causing the sharpness? I definitely have that problem myself if the frets are too tall...just throwing it out there for what its worth.
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Post by Strato on Aug 2, 2007 14:15:17 GMT -7
The frets don't seem the be larger than normal. I thought it might be the way i was playing it, but I tried for 5 min to see if I could play lighter, but with the same results. I doubt its due to my touch, but who knows? I still think I will have it looked at.
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Post by noisemaker on Aug 2, 2007 14:25:38 GMT -7
Is it a tune-o-matic bridge? those can cave in on the center strings if the tailpiece is screwed tight to the body. If it's already bent, that could add to the problem. Good Luck
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Post by Strato on Aug 2, 2007 14:29:49 GMT -7
I believe it is a tune-o-matic... The saddle has a screw going thought it, which can be easily removed from the bridge and accidental fall into your f-hole And yes, it is already bent. However, the tail piece is a trapeze.
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Post by noisemaker on Aug 2, 2007 14:34:36 GMT -7
Haha, I bet that was fun to get out. A trapeze could cave it in, but it being bent foward is probably a bigger deal. I have a les paul, and can barely get to intonate. Straightening the posts shouldn't be a problem for a good tech. Just reread your post, didn't realize it was a vintage piece. Then I would find a GOOD tech to fix it. If it were me, I would try to keep the original parts if possible. Trace
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Post by Strato on Aug 2, 2007 15:00:39 GMT -7
Yeah the bridge is bowed in the center towards the body... I suppose that would affect the distance between the nut and the saddle.
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Post by tweedpro on Aug 3, 2007 21:28:29 GMT -7
Just for the record you are saying that the bridge is bent down towards the body not pulling the studs toward the nut? Take the bridge off, put it across something solid like a large vise opened up, and give it a couple of taps with a hammer. That should help it play better. Now the intonation is another story. If you can't reverse the saddles, you can either go to a lighter guage of strings, or realize that most gibsons play out of tune because of the short scale. I've seen brand new historic LP's that won't tune. Some are worse than others because of the placement of the bridge, but none of them intonate 100%. Fenders are better given the longer scale but still can be slightly off.
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Post by oldgoat on Aug 3, 2007 22:33:15 GMT -7
I noticed that my late 60's/early 70's 335 has some whacked out intonation. On most strings, the 12th fret is sharp when compared to 12th harmonic. To remedy this, one would lengthen the distance between the nut and the saddle, correct? The problem is, the adjustments for the intonation are already maxed out - I can't increase the length anymore. On a few strings, I was able to squeeze a little more adjustment out of it. But, most are still significantly sharp. I suppose the bridge is bowed inward a bit, Perhaps this is causing intonation problems? Anyone have any suggestions to remedy this? This guitar still has the original nut and saddles, which I believe are bone. Maybe its time for a new nut? Will metal saddles increase sustain? Strato the simplest thing for your intonation problem is to get a Nashville style bridge. It just has more travel to adjust the intonation, so it should do the trick. I had the same issue with my 335. Also your bent bridge will most likely cause an intonation issue. But I would caution you against bending it back yourself. I've seen some unfortunate accidents from this. That this seems to be a new problem for you I would check to see if there are any hairline cracks on it. Just be careful. It seems to me that a trip to a good tech is in order. The metal saddles would change your tone and possibly give you more sustain. The tone change you may or may not like. Some jazz friends of mine believe that you can get in the ball park of the nylon saddles by using replacement graphite saddles but I haven't heard this myself. Anyone else know it this is true or myth?
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Post by dixiechicken on Aug 4, 2007 2:47:02 GMT -7
Strato! Please note that setting the intonation the way you describes DOES NOT result in accurate intonation. This has to do with the fact that the guitar is tempered instrument. From Dan Erlewine's book: How to Make Your Electric Guitar Play Great - page 94: Play the open string - with the note still ringing in your mind or displayed on a tuner - play the fretted note at the 12th fret. The two notes should be the same - a perfect octave.
Note: A variation on the above method is to chime the open string harmonic at the 12th fret and tune the fretted note to match the chime harmonic. Most experts agree that this is not a an accurate way of checking the 12th fret octave. I suggest using the fretted note method described above.
This book is very good reading you can buy it from Amazon.Com ( I did - highly recommended reading ) There lots of ways to intonate and tune your guitar and several of the most common WILL NEVER let your guitar sound in tune - no matter what. Cheers: Dixiechicken
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Post by Hohn on Aug 4, 2007 22:28:46 GMT -7
I personally think that 12th and 5th fret harmonics are valid-- but 7th fret harmonics are not.
The point of avoiding the harmonics is, imo, that the the harmonics ARE accurate, and you don't necessarily want accurate.
When you fret a note, you increase the tension on the string by a small amount (depending on action and string guage). The harmonic doesn't register this tension increase, while fretting does.
So idea here is that you "practice like you play"-- that is, you simulate calibrate for the playing. Unless you are playing a LOT of harmonics, and it's most important that htese be in tune, then you should avoid them for tuning.
I've felt that the error at the 12th fret is so minor that the harmonic there is useable. But the 5th fret is off, and the 7th fret is WAY off.
JMO
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Post by Strato on Aug 5, 2007 12:47:08 GMT -7
Here is an issue I am having with my strat...
After I put my fralins in(they sound awesome IMO), I started noticing a really weird overtone thing happening with my low E string. It is most noticable when in the neck postion. It sounds like it is almost exaclty a half step below the fretted note. When I play the 12th fret on the E string, I hear an E and an Eb.
I tried lowering the bridge pickup. While it did help some, the ovetone is still very noticable. I was thinking that maybe this is an inntonation problem. It seems like I can bend the E string around the 12th fret and match the two pitches.
The only problem is I cant properly set the intonation for this string because the two different tones makes my strobe tuner freak out.
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Post by Telemanic on Aug 5, 2007 14:55:05 GMT -7
Yeah strats and Teles to some degree always give me a little trouble. They have some wolf tones here and there.
Ive got a weird problem right now with a Tele i put together recently, ... well really just a Glendale vintage style bridge and comp saddles on an Am-Stan body, with Allparts neck. My "G" string 12th fret harmonic, is flat compared to the open string! How the H@ll can that be? Nut? I'm baffled by it and have asked guitar techs and no-ones sure about why that may be happening, except MAYBE the nut. Any Ideas ? THX
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Post by dixiechicken on Aug 6, 2007 6:48:45 GMT -7
Lowering the pickups can sometimes make the intonation better. The magnetic pull of the PU:s on the strings, can cause intonation problems. It can also shorten the sustain. Also the neck pick up on the Telacster often cant produce harmonics at all or at least only some harmonics. ( this was the case on my old Tele before I rebuilt it to the one I have now - and no I'm not quite shure why )This forces you to use the bridge pick when tuning & setting up intonation. ( perhaps not a big deal ) Cheers: Dixiechicken
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