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Post by guitarman1 on Feb 7, 2006 8:13:22 GMT -7
It all started when I went looking for a low capacitance 15 ft. cable to help reduce tone loss going from my pedal board to my amp. Some of the folks here on the forum recommended George Ls. While I use them on my pedal board, I had some reservations with using non-soldered connections on a gig from my pedal board to the amp. After looking on the web for about 4 hours, the lowest published capacitance of any cable I found was Klotz LaGrange at 70pf per meter and a resistance of 85 ohms per kilometer. I crossed my fingers and bought one from Lava cables at around $65.00 and received it 2 days later via priority mail. This morning before work, I had about 20 minutes to spare, so I did a quick A/B comparison to my home rolled Canare cable with Neutrik connectors. Bayou Cables also makes their cables with Canare and either Neutrik or G&H connectors. The Klotz also has Neutriks, but with gold plugs. Anyway, I was hoping for, but wasn't convinced I would hear any differences. I plugged the Canare cable from guitar to amp and listened to the sound I'm familiar with. I then swapped the Canare with the Klotz. The difference was huge. The Klotz had MUCH more high end and mids information. There was more clarity, openness and note-to-note definition. I'm not trying to convince anyone that the Klotz is better and I'm not even certain that I like it better yet. Overall, the tone was brighter, but maybe thats because there is more information passing from the pups to the amp that my ears aren't used to. The Klotz was also a hair louder than the Canare. My point of this post is that I've spent a good deal of cash on tubes, but have neglected any experimentation with cables. I just thought expensive boteek cables were a bunch of hype. Well. the differences are NOT subtle with these 2 brands. It is much more dramatic than swapping different tubes in V1. The Canare cable cost me about $15.00. Is there a $50.00 improvement? A Sovtek 12AX7 costs $8.00 and some Mullards go for $115.00. Is there a $107.00 improvement? Here is a link to a very extensive cable review that I found about a year ago, but never really put much stock in it. I'm starting to re-think my opinion now on what a difference a cable can make. www.lavacable.com/myweb/CableSummit4.pdf
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 7, 2006 12:16:51 GMT -7
Ahhhh... this is why I tell people to listen to their ears, but DO the test. I'm on several gear forums, and they all pooh-pooh the idea that expensive cables could be any better than their home made cables. After all, they're using Switchcraft and Belden, right?
My ear tests told me there was a huge difference. Enough that I swapped everything for George L's. Then the sales guy made me ear test again, and the Solid cables were another order of magnitude better.
As you say, you may not like all that signal, but if you HAVE it, you can attenuate it at the preamp. If it never gets there, you can never recover it. I'd rather have everything my pups can deliver and deal with my tone via the preamp...
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Post by guitarman1 on Feb 7, 2006 12:34:37 GMT -7
As you say, you may not like all that signal, but if you HAVE it, you can attenuate it at the preamp. If it never gets there, you can never recover it. I'd rather have everything my pups can deliver and deal with my tone via the preamp... Yes...well said Benttop. I can always attenuate. Sooooo....gimmie the details on those Solid Cables. Here is a another cable review I found today from Jazz Guitar Magazine. www.justjazzguitar.com/articles/body.php3?section=online&sub=articles&article=art-11-cables.php3
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 7, 2006 13:54:10 GMT -7
As you say, you may not like all that signal, but if you HAVE it, you can attenuate it at the preamp. If it never gets there, you can never recover it. I'd rather have everything my pups can deliver and deal with my tone via the preamp... Yes...well said Benttop. I can always attenuate. Sooooo....gimmie the details on those Solid Cables. Here is a cable review from Jazz Guitar Magazine. www.justjazzguitar.com/articles/body.php3?section=online&sub=articles&article=art-11-cables.php3I actually shy away from recommending them simply because they are way expensive - I paid about $160 for one cable. But I haven' t yet heard anything that lets more signal through, so I'm happy. I have two of them! But if that doesn't get your guard up instantly, you can check them out at www.solidcables.com/. It appears to me, other than the obvious, that his big claim to fame is the silver solder, but I'm no expert. I DO know that they are great cables, and are lasting WAY longer than the Monsters that I started out with. I would bet that most folks would be happy with the cables you just bought. It would be fun to A/B them, but I bet any difference is going to be pretty subtle. Who knows? By the way, thanks for the link on that cable shootoff - that's pretty interesting, and I'm now wondering just where my cables would fit in to that mess.... Good info going forward!
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Post by pickupcentral on Feb 7, 2006 16:14:18 GMT -7
I recently bit the bullet and got me a couple of Evidence Audio cables. I was only going to get one, but the store offered me a great deal.
Sound-wise, they seem to be clearer, definitely brighter, but not harsh. I only got to use them for about an hour, but so far, so good. I A/B'ed them one with the George L's I had been using, and there was less harshness, and clear sound. My guitar seemed to have more...something. I dunno, like the pickups were working to their potential.
I was hesitant to try them because of the price, and my general disbelief in magic, but in the past I have spent that much or more on speakers or pedals or even guitars that ended up gathering dust or being sold for a loss. At the price I got them, I could probably sell them to one of the faithful if my old ears didn't hear a difference. I won't have a chance until tomorrow to do more comparison - I'll let y'all know.
-Phil
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Post by billyguitar on Feb 7, 2006 16:31:18 GMT -7
I've used George Ls for a long time. I'd have to a/b them against another cable at home before I would do it. The George Ls seem good but I really can't tell. I like how small they are. I never tried to a/b them against anything else. Albert Collins sure sounded good through his 100' cable! Probably like turning his tone pot 1/2 the way down with all that capacitance. Gerald Weber (Kendrick) raves about Klotz.
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Post by guitarman1 on Feb 8, 2006 6:55:29 GMT -7
I recently bit the bullet and got me a couple of Evidence Audio cables. I was only going to get one, but the store offered me a great deal. Sound-wise, they seem to be clearer, definitely brighter, but not harsh. I only got to use them for about an hour, but so far, so good. I A/B'ed them one with the George L's I had been using, and there was less harshness, and clear sound. My guitar seemed to have more...something. I dunno, like the pickups were working to their potential. I was hesitant to try them because of the price, and my general disbelief in magic, but in the past I have spent that much or more on speakers or pedals or even guitars that ended up gathering dust or being sold for a loss. At the price I got them, I could probably sell them to one of the faithful if my old ears didn't hear a difference. I won't have a chance until tomorrow to do more comparison - I'll let y'all know. -Phil Are they the Evidence Lyric HG?
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Post by guitarman1 on Feb 8, 2006 6:59:46 GMT -7
I've used George Ls for a long time. I'd have to a/b them against another cable at home before I would do it. The George Ls seem good but I really can't tell. I like how small they are. I never tried to a/b them against anything else. Albert Collins sure sounded good through his 100' cable! Probably like turning his tone pot 1/2 the way down with all that capacitance. Gerald Weber (Kendrick) raves about Klotz. I read a post on gearpage.net yesterday claiming the George Ls have a 19 pf per foot capacitance. That's the lowest I've seen on guitar cables. Do you know if this is correct billy? I couldn't find the specs on George Ls website.
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Post by billyguitar on Feb 8, 2006 8:16:59 GMT -7
Guitar Player and Vintage Guitar have both done shootouts in recent years. They both said the George L has very low capacitance but I don't remember specific values. I'm only talking about the small cable. I have one of the big cables but too me it's too stiff so I don't use it.
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Post by pickupcentral on Feb 8, 2006 13:40:15 GMT -7
Are they the Evidence Lyric HG? Yup.
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Post by guitarman1 on Feb 10, 2006 9:33:07 GMT -7
I had a chance last night to spend a few hours comparing the new Klotz with my standard Canare cable. Although the Klotz does have clearer mids & highs, it sounds a bit sterile and stiff. The Canare just has a little more body/fullness and is more relaxed.
I can't say one is generally better than the other. It depends on what type of sound someone is looking for. If I'm going for a chimey tone with open chords (Beatles-I want You/She's So Heavy), I'd use the Klotz. For Blues & Jazz, I'd use the Canare. I did these comparisons going straight from a PRS Custom 22 into my Maz Sr./Tonker and Ghia/Swamp Thang.
I'd love to find a cable that combines the attributes of both.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 10, 2006 12:02:04 GMT -7
Isn't it amazing what a huge difference they all bring to the table? I've been struggling here with some issues with my pedal board, and realized I was not using decent cabling - at least not my good stuff. Surprise, that made all the difference. Nothing wrong with the cables I was using, it's just I like the Solids sound better, and I could hear it. If I, being about 2/3 deaf, can hear the difference, I think almost anyone could...
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Post by guitarman1 on Feb 10, 2006 14:04:35 GMT -7
Benttop, I think the cable manufacturers should send you and me samples of their various cables for testing and review here on the forum. Our modest fee would be that we get to keep the samples! ;D Waddya think?
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 10, 2006 14:45:28 GMT -7
Benttop, I think the cable manufacturers should send you and me samples of their various cables for testing and review here on the forum. Our modest fee would be that we get to keep the samples! ;D Waddya think? I think it's a great idea, but so far hardly anyone listens to me anyway, so I'm wondering what's in it for the cable guys?
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Post by bluzsteel on Feb 11, 2006 8:40:51 GMT -7
George L's are great for my pedal board but they way to much high end for me for a guitar cable , just switched to Mogami
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Post by billyguitar on Feb 11, 2006 10:52:37 GMT -7
I think cables can be like tone controls, to a degree. With my Tom Anderson I could use rolling off some highs, especially with a Z amp. Any suggestions?
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Post by sicktone on Feb 11, 2006 12:04:45 GMT -7
If you really want to roll off some highs with your cable, try the Monster Rock cables. A bunch of us spent hours geeking out with various cables and really noticed that (relatively) the highs were cut considerably when using the Monster Rock. We were using Zaolla, Two Rock, Evidence, Monster Rock, George L's, and some low end cables. The Evidence Lyric HG was the most neutral. I've spoken to Tony at Evidence and he says that his whole philosophy is to make the cables as transparent to the sound as possible. I like the Evidence, but that's because I'm a tone freak. It's really more of an individual taste kind of thing. I can't spend all this time collecting gear and swapping tubes without having a premium signal to the gear. Myles likes the PJB cables - they look like excellent products but I've never tried them. I support Evidence because I know Tony and agree with his design philosophy. I think we can all agree that the point is to enjoy the journey. If you want to EQ your guitar with a cable, it's nice to know you have options.
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 12, 2006 21:16:37 GMT -7
If you really want to roll off some highs with your cable, try the Monster Rock cables. A bunch of us spent hours geeking out with various cables and really noticed that (relatively) the highs were cut considerably when using the Monster Rock. We were using Zaolla, Two Rock, Evidence, Monster Rock, George L's, and some low end cables. The Evidence Lyric HG was the most neutral. I've spoken to Tony at Evidence and he says that his whole philosophy is to make the cables as transparent to the sound as possible. I like the Evidence, but that's because I'm a tone freak. It's really more of an individual taste kind of thing. I can't spend all this time collecting gear and swapping tubes without having a premium signal to the gear. Myles likes the PJB cables - they look like excellent products but I've never tried them. I support Evidence because I know Tony and agree with his design philosophy. I think we can all agree that the point is to enjoy the journey. If you want to EQ your guitar with a cable, it's nice to know you have options. You've put it very well. Thanks!
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Post by bluzsteel on Feb 13, 2006 8:02:33 GMT -7
Mogami seems to roll em off
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Post by JChance on Feb 13, 2006 8:15:14 GMT -7
Mogami seems to roll em off Yep. We used them when I was working with Gretchen. Mine was a 30 foot cable that went behind the stage props, as all of our amps were behind the stage and turned around backwards. The Mogami's are high-quality, but I thought they took a bit *too* much high-end off, especially at 30'. A 10-15 foot'er might be perfect, though. JC
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Post by bluzsteel on Feb 13, 2006 8:55:14 GMT -7
I have an 18ft works great
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Post by terryg on Feb 13, 2006 10:17:56 GMT -7
This is interesting stuff. I've been using Planet Waves for guitar->pboard->amp (board w/ George Ls) for at least a year or two (hm, or more!), never really thinking too deeply about it. For the $$ they seem decent enough, durable, and reliable. But....you know how it is, we just like to experiment and see what else is there. I've seen and used Myle's cables...they're huge, and the connectors are the size of tractor trailer lugnuts...but I liked 'em at his place!
Are there any cables that you'd consider a decent step up from the PWs without going stratospheric? Rather, what's a recommended general upgrade from here, or is it a leap forward? (I'm using 10' on either side of the board.)
On a tangent, I've replaced the Z power cable with the IEC connector with a heavy-guage Volex IEC power cable. This power cable is built for medical equipment AFAIK, as it's a grey one with clear connectors. To my ears the Z28 that's using it has gained some weight. I haven't gone back to the stock cable. If anyone's interested I'll find the part number and gauge info. boj, if you're reading this I got this from Tim S.
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Post by sicktone on Feb 13, 2006 12:15:51 GMT -7
I'd like to get that part #.
I've played with the Evidence "Source" power cable. I was impressed by the difference from a stock cable, but not enough to drop the $$$'s.
If I can get a nice power cable like the Volex, it would take care of my power cord GAS;)
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Post by guitarman1 on Feb 15, 2006 13:22:27 GMT -7
Are there any cables that you'd consider a decent step up from the PWs without going stratospheric? Rather, what's a recommended general upgrade from here, or is it a leap forward? (I'm using 10' on either side of the board.) I've never tried Planet Waves cables, so I can't make any direct comparisons. I will say that for the money, Canare cable & Neutrk connectors are hard to beat for sound & reliability. Bayou Cables sells a 15 footer for $24.00. You can order the same cable/connectors from Redco and roll your own for allot less. I compared my homemade Canare/Neutriks to a pre-made Mogami Gold High Definition cable with Neutriks at Guitar Center and found the Canare to have just a hair more transparency & definition. The Mogami was selling for $44.00. I also verified from George L that their cable is indeed 19 pF per foot, or 62 pF per meter. This puts it even lower than the Klotz at 70 pF per meter. After some long evaluation, my stage setup will be Canare from guitar to pedals, George L between pedals, Klotz from pedals to amp. The 15 ft Klotz helps retain more of the high end in that position than my original Canare. I assume George L cable would be similar or better given the slightly lower capacitance. I don't have a long length of George L to test.
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Post by billyguitar on Feb 15, 2006 15:03:14 GMT -7
The upgrading power cable this is something the high end stereo guys do all the time. It's got to be a subtle upgrade and you're still at the mercy of the wiring in the club or home and the current coming in from the pole. An interesting tweak though. I'll just go for durability myself.
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Post by propellr on Feb 16, 2006 12:58:39 GMT -7
My main cable just failed. It still works plugged into my amp, but not plugged from my acoustic into a direct box. What's up with that?
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Post by terryg on Feb 18, 2006 14:18:13 GMT -7
Sorry for the delay in responding, folks! I've been preoccupied by these 6 strings and this cute little Ghia head... sicktone, that Volex cable is part # 17016 8 S2. It's a 16AWG IEC, evidently a medical cable. Here's a link to it on their site: volexpowercords.com/power_cords/powercord2.cgi?view=17016&catagory=3_conductor_medicord_special_purpose_cords&area=other&mfgloc=&partnumber=&userid=billyguitar, I know exactly what you mean. I don't have any problems or issues with the "stock" cable. I'd only heard of audiophiles doing this, and this Volex cable just kind of showed up and for not a lot of money, I figured "why not try it?" It's definitely durable. guitarman1, *thanks* for the Bayou Cable recommendation. I'm going to be needing another instrument cable soon, and with his prices and components, I'll be able replace what I'm using now. I don't need to replace my PW cables (afaik), but I like to be consistent end to end. Is this just obsessive of me, or am I not alone? Hey, he does speaker cables too!
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Post by propellr on Feb 19, 2006 20:31:31 GMT -7
If you really want to roll off some highs with your cable, try the Monster Rock cables. A bunch of us spent hours geeking out with various cables and really noticed that (relatively) the highs were cut considerably when using the Monster Rock. I ordered two 12' Monster Rock cables today, each with the 90 degree angle at one end. (only the 21' cables are stocked with the angled end.) The angled end will allow me to run my pedal tuner directly in front of my amp and the other will "slim" the top of my ES-335. Is it safe to say that these cables are "dark", generally speaking, because you mentioned they roll off some of the high end? I'm not especially concerned with the color of the signal, if you understand, but am just looking to replace the ones I've got with some that I won't have to really shell out for.
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Post by zed on Feb 21, 2006 12:40:13 GMT -7
The upgrading power cable this is something the high end stereo guys do all the time. It's got to be a subtle upgrade and you're still at the mercy of the wiring in the club or home and the current coming in from the pole. An interesting tweak though. I'll just go for durability myself.
In a previous life I worked as a product manager at Monster Cable. During my time there, I went from a cable skeptic to a convert. I did many many listening sessions at Noel's place in Daly City, and there sure were differences among cables.
Noel Lee (the "Head Monster") pretty much created the high-end speaker wire business, and moved into cables in the 80s. I have a set of the first prototypes of the guitar cables we made for Santana. They are truly beautiful, but were far too expensive for the guitar market (which at that time sold $9.99 lifetime guaranteed cables). Santana said they sounded like fine red wine tasted.
It is nice to see the market has come around to understanding the value and characteristics of different cables. The first improvement is usually signal throughput - they are louder. Then it is up to you and your tastes. Smoother, softer, crispy, etc. Cables can add a lot of color to your playing.
I still use the Monsters, and have 3 or 4 "NOS" in a box!
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Post by anacephalic on Feb 28, 2006 16:13:55 GMT -7
It was only a matter of time!! I say that because one of my other money pit obsessions is high end stereo and you should see the cable discussions in that little hobby land. Not only do you deal with capacitence but you also get into issues with different dielectric characteristics of the casings and insulation, tonality of wire type (pure O2 free copper, silver, blends,) twist characteristics in line electronics (transparent and MIT love this kind of thing). $300 for a pair of 1 m interconnects is no big deal. I've seen 8 ft pairs of speaker cable at almost $20,000. And then they'll get going on power chords (yeah the disconnectable chord from the component to the wall) that can run from $100-$1500 ea. You can tell the difference between cables, even the power chords i have to admit (i think they act as high pass filters to clean up the power some though the tranny and caps should do that). Better or worse is up to the individual. Some dudes seem to do nothing but swap cables all year long looking for the perfect match. I just find something reasonable good (pure copper) and then enjoy the music. A friend of mine has a pro level studio (does stuff for Disney amonhg others) and his rig is wired with monster for the "important line level stuff" and zip wire.
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