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Post by retrobob on Jan 26, 2007 18:09:33 GMT -7
As per the Airbrake instruction manual, Vintage amp settings should be: amp 8 ohms into a 16 ohm cab when hooked to the airbrake. Or perhaps, 4 ohms on the amp into an 8 ohm cab while hooked to the airbrake. This apparently keeps the output transformer "happy" or IOW not stressed. Would this also apply to a more modern amps, if they are suspect of not having very robust transformers? (refer to the Marshall 2061x thread) I just puchaced a new Airbrake, and want to use it on my marshall 2061x. (which has a reputaion of having weak transformers)
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Post by russguitarboy on Feb 15, 2007 11:40:40 GMT -7
When I saw the heading Vintage amp settings, I figured this would be a good place to get my question answered.
I'm having trouble understanding the actually volume reduction of an airbrake. It is criticized by many on the Harmony Central site of doing almost nothing unless it's on the bedroom setting. These people like the THD products much better. I understand that the Airbrake is more transparent though.
While I understand dB in theory I have no idea what this means in terms of equivilant master volume settings. If I'm sitting in front of my 50 watt plexiclone (with a twin style master circuit) and I crank the master and turn the gain up half way, then turn on the airbrake to 3, what is the approximate equivilant setting on my master?(on a scale of 1-10) 9?8?7? If I have both gain and volume at 5 and flick on the airbrake on 3, what would the equivilant master setting be? 4.5? 3? If I have the gain at five and the master at 2 and flick on the airbrake on 3, what would the equivilant master setting be?
I know this may be hard to answer but try to give approximates. I won't hold you too them! I need to know if the airbrake is enough attenuation to use my 50 watt in church(300people)with a 2x12 cab. How much more does the THD attenuate? Would it sound better to just lower the volume with the master? At what master level are you no longer driving the tubes so it doesn't matter if you attenuate or not? Maybe I could use the airbrake to cut a bit off the top, but still use the master? Help me out here please!
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Post by benttop (Steve) on Feb 15, 2007 12:47:17 GMT -7
When I saw the heading Vintage amp settings, I figured this would be a good place to get my question answered. I'm having trouble understanding the actually volume reduction of an airbrake. It is criticized by many on the Harmony Central site of doing almost nothing unless it's on the bedroom setting. These people like the THD products much better. I understand that the Airbrake is more transparent though. While I understand dB in theory I have no idea what this means in terms of equivilant master volume settings. If I'm sitting in front of my 50 watt plexiclone (with a twin style master circuit) and I crank the master and turn the gain up half way, then turn on the airbrake to 3, what is the approximate equivilant setting on my master?(on a scale of 1-10) 9?8?7? If I have both gain and volume at 5 and flick on the airbrake on 3, what would the equivilant master setting be? 4.5? 3? If I have the gain at five and the master at 2 and flick on the airbrake on 3, what would the equivilant master setting be? I know this may be hard to answer but try to give approximates. I won't hold you too them! I need to know if the airbrake is enough attenuation to use my 50 watt in church(300people)with a 2x12 cab. How much more does the THD attenuate? Would it sound better to just lower the volume with the master? At what master level are you no longer driving the tubes so it doesn't matter if you attenuate or not? Maybe I could use the airbrake to cut a bit off the top, but still use the master? Help me out here please! First off, there is so much misinformation and downright BS floating around the net regarding attenuators, that you're not likely to get the straight scoop from very many places. Those idiots who said what you mentioned above must not have even tried the Airbrake. I can't really answer your question in terms of the position of your master volume because every amp is different. But I CAN answer in a way that might make sense to you. The decibel (db) is the standard unit of measurement for sound. But it's a hard unit of measure for the average joe to understand because it is logarithmic in nature. If you double your power, say go from a 50 watt Marshall to a 100 watt Marshall, you've increased your apparent volume by 3db. Around the net, you'll see folks say "well that's ONLY 3db" - 3db is a lot - you can definitely hear it! Unless you're deaf, I think you'll agree that going from a 50 watt amp to a 100 watt amp gives a very noticeable increase in volume. And that increase is measured as +3db. You get the exact same thing going the other way - if you change from a 50 watt amp to a 25 watt amp, that would be -3db. And if you go from a 25 watt amp to a 100 watt amp, that's about +6db. Those decibels carry a lot of noodles! OK, so now you have a feel for what 3db might be. It's a doubling, or halving of your apparent volume. So how is that relevant to the Airbrake? As shipped, the Airbrake is set so that each of the first four switch settings drops your volume by 2db. Not quite half. You can definitely hear it. So on the first click you get -2db, and on the next click you get another -2db (more than half volume now), the next click is yet another -2db (now you're at -6db, which would be about 1/4 apparent volume), and finally you get one more click for another -2db (now you're at -8db). The next click gets into the rheostat which drops it even more. The Hot Plate uses increments that are twice as large - the first click on the Hot Plate drops the volume -4db. So it's quite a bit more apparent (since you've just dropped your apparent volume to less than half the power you had on the previous click). So the Hot Plate gets to -8db in two clicks when the Airbrake gets there in four. That's why I like the Airbrake better for the lower powered amps - you get more control because of the smaller steps. It's probably also why knuckleheads on HC think the Airbrake doesn't do as much. Uh, yeah, that's by design, ya dingbat! Hope that helps a bit. Edit: Just went back and re-read your question and realized you have a 50 watt amp. You might want to try both the Airbrake and the Hot Plate to see which gives the volume you're looking for. The Hot Plate drops -4db, then -8, then -12 and then hits the -16db slot where the rheostat becomes active. The Airbrake, as I said, is -2, -4, -6, -8, then the rheostat. So you can get lot more attenuation with the Hot Plate in the initial clicks. You should also be aware that too much attenuation seems to spoil the tone, and that's for both units. You need to recognize that lowering your volume huge amounts also changes your perception of the tone. This has to do with the way the human ear works, but the net effect is that it seems like you lose bottom end. Most of us who use attenuators try to stay within 1 to 3 clicks from the top end.
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Post by Telemanic on Feb 15, 2007 18:18:55 GMT -7
The Airbrake is also adjustable in it's increments, but i find it very nice at the stock settings. I also find it sounds better than the hot-plate, but that is of course subjective and would only offer my preference as an opinion. As far as the reviews, i want to try to be tactful, but honest. There are a great many knuckle heads out there in guitar land, as well as younger inexperienced players, and everywhere in-between. IMHO, the Airbrake is a professional tool for professionaly minded players. By that i mean that it is not a unit for metalheads or bedroom metalheads or volume mongers, who think that when they read that its transparent and wonderful etc., etc., ... that they can go sit in their bedroom at 2:00 in the morning or afternoon for that matter, and get all the sonic glory of their 100watt or even 50 marshalls, 5150's etc. and mom, or the wife, or the apartment next door is not going to hear them, ..... really well!! I feel it to be an amazing stage tool for the working musician, who has already figured out how to choose an amp size for a club size. If your goin into a small club with your old non master marshall, you are over amped, and no matter what you do your tone is not going to be as good as it could be. Either your gonna turn down the amp out of its sweet spot, or your gonna squash the tone with an excessive amount of attenuation no matter who's attenuator ya use. They are best at taking subtle, precise, but noticable layers off of your volume. A couple of clicks back early in your show, and then bring some back later as your listeners ears loose a bit of high end, or as the club fill in, or empties out. Remember that the more you attenuate the more you loose air, and dynamics, ie headroom. the tone becomes increasingly un-natural due to psycho-acoustics. Now that being said, ... i still find the bedroom setting amazing and very usable. Ya just have to take it as it is and use it to its advantage, rather than expect unrealistic results. And thats all ive got ta say about that,
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Post by mward on Feb 15, 2007 18:26:24 GMT -7
Anyone who thinks it doesn't do anything on any setting except bedroom is delusional. It makes a titanic difference in volume. My wife said it's her favorite piece of equipment because it's the only way I can play without blowing her away with my route 66. Also, most of the people on HC tend towards guitardedness and have waaaaaaaaaay waaaaaay more amp than they need. On larger amps the smaller attenuation steps might not be as noticable.
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Post by zone47 on Feb 26, 2007 16:25:03 GMT -7
As per the Airbrake instruction manual, Vintage amp settings should be: amp 8 ohms into a 16 ohm cab when hooked to the airbrake. Or perhaps, 4 ohms on the amp into an 8 ohm cab while hooked to the airbrake. This apparently keeps the output transformer "happy" or IOW not stressed. Would this also apply to a more modern amps, if they are suspect of not having very robust transformers? (refer to the Marshall 2061x thread) I just puchaced a new Airbrake, and want to use it on my marshall 2061x. (which has a reputaion of having weak transformers) Hi Retro Bob 1!1 !!! well now, we have a problem here, don't we I would say that matching your ohms head to cab is your best bet, and if you think about it, most modern amps have a 4, 8 and 16 ohm tap so the only problem I could see is if you forgot to put speakers in your cabinet I would say that going with the vintage settings would be acceptable considering that your amp is a vintage clone. Good luck.
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Post by taswegian on Feb 28, 2007 6:51:03 GMT -7
I believe the airbrake is set up around live settings more so than practise at home settings. The people who say it does very little until bedroom settings obviously don't play or use the airbrake live. The small increments make a huge difference when playing live. If you're too loud then usually one click is plenty to bring you back in a live setting. Works well to get your sound with the setting on 2 or 3 and usually by the end of the night you'll be down to 1 or off.
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Post by rogerbiggerstaff on Mar 6, 2007 11:24:02 GMT -7
One thing about the dbs- it takes 10x the wattage to double the volume, so a +3db increase would be the difference from a 10w and a 100w using the same speaker. That's why if you use a 97db speaker vs.a 100 db speaker, your amp's perceived volume will double, or if you want to reduce volume, inefficient speakers is better than turning the amp down. If you combine inefficient speakers and mild attenuation, that's the best of both worlds for those wanting the oomph of big iron.
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Post by sudsysul on Jun 22, 2007 12:12:18 GMT -7
roger that! It would take a 500 watt amp to double the volume of a 50 watt amp.
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Post by dixiechicken on Jul 3, 2007 13:50:47 GMT -7
Yes - in priciple this is quite correct - in real life it would probably be hard to find guitaramp/combo with that kind of effect span. A PA-rig could probably illustrate the above statement better or some bass-rigs maybe.
Also bear in mind that the human ear/hearing apart from being logarithmic in nature also will hear bass and treble frequencies very differently at varying volumes. The human ear is most sensitive to midrange frequences around human voice, tenorsax & guitar and their overtones. ( roughly ) This property of the human ear is mapped out in the Fletcher-Murchinson curves.
A general rule of thumb says that +9db will be percieved as a doubling of volume. The volume control of my hifi-stero preamp at home is calibrated i 2dB discrete steps. ( i.e. is a rotary switch - not a potentiometer )
Cheers: Dixiechicken
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