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Post by iggs on Dec 14, 2007 8:09:21 GMT -7
IF at ALL POSSIBLE - follow the KISS principle. Rock and roll all nite and party every day??? ;D ;D ;D
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Post by taswegian on Dec 14, 2007 8:19:14 GMT -7
I find it hard to believe that some of you are being honest. Let’s face it. One of the greatest tones in history by many professional guitarist standards is Clapton’s tone on the Mayhall Beano album. But guess what? Since that time Clapton has went through Gibson Les Paul’s, Firebirds, 335, Fender Strats & Teles. He has played fuzz faces, Marshalls, Tweeds, Blondes, Music Man, Soldano's & Cornell’s. So, even the great Clapton did no like certain things about all those great pieces of equipment that we all base the tone in our heads on. Stevie Ray Vaughan went through several vintage Marshall’s & Fenders. According to Mike Soldano, SRV was working with Soldano on a custom SLO-100 to replace his precious Dumble. Edward Van Halen’s tone on his first few albums has been one of the most coveted modern day tones. Eddie went from Marshalls, to Soldano’s, to Peavey & now to Fenders. He went from Charvels, to Music Man to Peavey to Fenders guitars. My point is this, no matter how much you adore your Route 66 there has to be some little something that occasionally gets on your nerves and is something that you would like to change. It’s the constant quest for tone. You all should understand that. I hate to point this out on the Z forum, but did you notice there were no Dr Z amps amongst all three players I mentioned, what’s up with that? They all had three things in common: Marshall, Fender, & Soldano. I think most of these guys changed more for endorsements than anything else. And their styles may change also and require a new approach. I know if I was in a funk band, I wouldn't be playing my Route 66.
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Post by taswegian on Dec 14, 2007 8:23:37 GMT -7
IF at ALL POSSIBLE - follow the KISS principle. Rock and roll all nite and party every day??? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by skydog958 on Dec 14, 2007 8:37:08 GMT -7
I saw a show on PBS recently about SRV. It showed him playing from the early days 'til the end. At the first Montreaux festival he used one Music Man combo with a 15. That sounded better than all of his later setups to me. Sounded just like his first album. That was a great set. Killer tone too. But I must say, when he came back to Montreaux in '85...oh my
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Post by dixiechicken on Dec 14, 2007 16:39:44 GMT -7
You wish... ;D - alas no I'm sorry to say. Keep It Simple Stupid Cheers: Dixiechicken!
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Post by Dr.T on Dec 15, 2007 2:03:19 GMT -7
I find it hard to believe that some of you are being honest. Let’s face it. One of the greatest tones in history by many professional guitarist standards is Clapton’s tone on the Mayhall Beano album. But guess what? Since that time Clapton has went through Gibson Les Paul’s, Firebirds, 335, Fender Strats & Teles. He has played fuzz faces, Marshalls, Tweeds, Blondes, Music Man, Soldano's & Cornell’s. So, even the great Clapton did no like certain things about all those great pieces of equipment that we all base the tone in our heads on. Stevie Ray Vaughan went through several vintage Marshall’s & Fenders. According to Mike Soldano, SRV was working with Soldano on a custom SLO-100 to replace his precious Dumble. Edward Van Halen’s tone on his first few albums has been one of the most coveted modern day tones. Eddie went from Marshalls, to Soldano’s, to Peavey & now to Fenders. He went from Charvels, to Music Man to Peavey to Fenders guitars. My point is this, no matter how much you adore your Route 66 there has to be some little something that occasionally gets on your nerves and is something that you would like to change. It’s the constant quest for tone. You all should understand that. I hate to point this out on the Z forum, but did you notice there were no Dr Z amps amongst all three players I mentioned, what’s up with that? They all had three things in common: Marshall, Fender, & Soldano. I think most of these guys changed more for endorsements than anything else. And their styles may change also and require a new approach. I know if I was in a funk band, I wouldn't be playing my Route 66. I play in a Funky band with the R66!!!
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Post by dixiechicken on Dec 15, 2007 4:34:13 GMT -7
We actually took up the old Wild Cherry hit: Play that Funky Music - in our last rehearsal with my band. We also play a couple of Power Of Tower tunes: Clean Slate & Digging On James Brown. Not to mention a couple of Jame Brown tunes. With the compressor engaged you can simulate the swell the hornsection does in "Cold Sweat". Cheers: Dixiechicken!
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Post by taswegian on Dec 15, 2007 8:00:43 GMT -7
I think most of these guys changed more for endorsements than anything else. And their styles may change also and require a new approach. I know if I was in a funk band, I wouldn't be playing my Route 66. I play in a Funky band with the R66!!! Indeed you do and it sounds great! I retract that statement. I play lots of Prince, Stevie Wonder, James Brown, it all sounds great with the 66. I probably should have said I MIGHT change to single coils! ;D But also the 2 Maz amps I played (Georges' Invasion and Azats' 18) both sounded like they would be FUNK MACHINES!
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Post by dixiechicken on Dec 15, 2007 9:21:39 GMT -7
It's all in the wrist... ;D
Cheers: Dixiechicken!
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Post by billyguitar on Dec 15, 2007 12:33:51 GMT -7
IF at ALL POSSIBLE - follow the KISS principle. Rock and roll all nite and party every day??? ;D ;D ;D And then it was every other day and now it's hardly at all. (Homer Simpson)
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Post by fuzzkarl on Dec 16, 2007 19:04:05 GMT -7
a single ended version or perhaps a half power switch would be cool. I would like to loose the airbreak.
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Post by BW on Dec 16, 2007 19:31:27 GMT -7
Diggin' that avatar Karl!
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Post by fuzzkarl on Dec 16, 2007 19:37:54 GMT -7
thanks ZZTop rules
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Post by LeftyLang on Dec 16, 2007 21:45:08 GMT -7
a single ended version or perhaps a half power switch would be cool. I would like to loose the airbreak. 1/2 power switch...Great idea! Could a tech do this to my 66? Would it void any warranty?
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Post by billyguitar on Dec 17, 2007 8:27:24 GMT -7
I tried mine wih my variac. By turning down the voltage you can keep most of the tone and reduce the volume a lot. You do lose some of the squeezy compression though.
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frank9310
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Post by frank9310 on Dec 18, 2007 15:56:23 GMT -7
I agree with Mr. Mom. I just mentioned in another thread that I played at an open stage the other day and the guy in the house band was a kick arse rocker from the 6os who played with the Easy Beats (British Invasion), grew up with Angus Young AC/DC in Australia! They did that song "Monday I Got Friday On My Mind" Anyway, he was amazing and had a small Marshall 10w solid state plugged into a Fender Blues Deville as a preamp with the Deville set on 1 and it was LLLOOOUD! he said all the major rockers like Angus, Page etc do that. I had my 66 on 10 running into a Celestion 1x12 Vintage 30 (60 watt speaker) with tone and bass all the way up on 10 along with a Fulltone OCD and Keeley Java Boost all maxed out and so was my guitar and I still couldn't compete with his volume! Everyone kept flagging me to turn up. I just wish it had about 20 more watts and reverb. I can live without an additonal premap tube but like the new Marshall Vintage Modern 50Watts KT66s 2 x 12 combo with that extra preamp tubes with Vintage or modern on/off switch would be nice features for sure but then I guess it wouldn't be a Z then I suppose...
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Post by taswegian on Dec 18, 2007 16:06:24 GMT -7
I can live without an additonal premap tube but like the new Marshall Vintage Modern 50Watts KT66s 2 x 12 combo with that extra preamp tubes with Vintage or modern on/off switch would be nice features for sure but then I guess it wouldn't be a Z then I suppose... Frank, the guys in the local shop have one of these Marshalls with the Kt66's and asked me to bring down my 66 to compare. Well there was no comparison, my 66 just blew it out of the water. It was louder and WAY more toneful, I think they were very disappointed as was I with the Marshall. Check my post in the "Used Rt 66 goes for". Not sure your 66 is right. I think Dan (mr Mom) was referring to the headroom of the 66, not the volume. I too sometimes run out of headroom with my inefficient 1-12 but I play humbuckers and the amp has alot more volume in hand after the clean headroom runs out. Re the other post, I played in a band for 6 years with a lead singer playing a 4-10 Blues Deville (not the new one, the old tweed one) and his amp could never keep up with my 66 volume wise even though it's 60 watts.
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frank9310
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Post by frank9310 on Dec 18, 2007 16:18:53 GMT -7
taswegian: What type speakers were you using with the Z? Were they the same as the Marshall or was it the 2x12 Combo? The reviews I read about that amp says it's major loud at 50 watts and wouldn't 50watts be louder than 32?
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Post by taswegian on Dec 18, 2007 20:32:55 GMT -7
We tried both the 2-12 50 watter and the 100 watt head and matching quad. The 66 seemed at least as loud as both if not louder. My experience with the Route 66 is it generally keeps up with anything. It's probably as loud as my old 50 watt plexi, it is LOUDER than my 2x60 watt stereo rack. Don't confuse loud with watts. Generally the wattage is only a headroom gage. The Z-28 which is only 22 watts can get mighty loud through a Z-best. I run my 66 through the Z-Best for my own gig but for cover stuff I usually run through an Ulbrick 1-12 cab with a custom designed Heritage Celestian speaker that Dave (Ulbrick) gets custom made. It's basically a 35 watt greenback with a tighter bottom end and inefficient around 97db. That helps tame the volume a bit. Most of the time through the Z Best it's just too loud for small clubs. I've played a festival with 10 000 people on the "nobody" stage while The Butterfly Effect (modern rock/metal) blasted out the main stage, and thought we'd never get over the main stage volume. Of course we had mega monitors and huge drum fill which made the stage volume LOUD. I had the Route 66 at 3 oclock everything (my favorite with the Z-Best) and it comfortably got over everything! The sound guy said it was the best tone he'd heard all day and The Living End played that gig and I dig his tone. A silly point but...I'm probably the loudest player in town, or at least I have a bad reputation, and I rarely run my Route 66 above 10-11 oclock all knobs on club gigs. One thing I can tell ya, no one has ever flagged me to turn up! ;D Sorry I'm rambling on...I'm a bit of a Route 66 Nazi
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Post by dixiechicken on Dec 19, 2007 6:10:26 GMT -7
No not at all - or at least very very little..
32 watts into a specifik cab - volume measured at 0.3 dm meter distance generates - lets say a 103 db measurement.
64 watts into the same cab - same type of measurement with the same gear is made made, same distance - this will generate about 106 dB measurement.
( the whole setup for doing proper measurements is a wee bit more elaborate than this - but you get the idea )
Although the wattage effect is doubled the increase in volume is no more than 3 dB. The smallest change the human ear can hear is just about a little less than 2 dB. Then tone controls in my Sentec preamplifier in my stereo at home is in calibrated 2 dB steps. ( as an example )
So a three dB difference is for all practical purposes a very very small volume change.
Cheers: Dixiechicken!
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Post by fuzzkarl on Dec 19, 2007 10:28:48 GMT -7
Frank, the guys in the local shop have one of these Marshalls with the Kt66's and asked me to bring down my 66 to compare. Well there was no comparison, my 66 just blew it out of the water. It was louder and WAY more toneful, I think they were very disappointed as was I with the Marshall. Check my post in the "Used Rt 66 goes for". Not sure your 66 is right. Hey Tas, I played that amp at GC when it came out.Not sure if it was 50 or 100,head & cab though. While I thought it was a killer amp,I called my bassist over to give it a listen,he said in no way did it come close to the 66. I had to agree that not only was the larger EQ no more useful,but the higher gian channel was not that cool & nowhere near as nice as the vintage side( or the 66 for that matter) with pedals. i would say the volume was about the same. The master vol was not as effective as the Airbreak.IMO
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frank9310
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Posts: 146
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Post by frank9310 on Dec 19, 2007 11:07:12 GMT -7
Thanks guys and I'm not sure what the real definition of loud is but if I'm not running an overdrive pedal like the OCD into my 66, I can easily turn it up all the way and stand right in front of the speakers and not be blown away or feel pain in my ears. Running an OCD or Tube screamer into it is another story altogether where the volume seems to double as usually is the case with most tube amps. Even my 5 watt '65 Supro sounds pretty darn loud with a tube screamer in it and a 25 watt Jensen speaker. However, if I turn up my 100w Marshall JCM 900 to 5 with no overdrive pedals, the walls and windows are rattling to near breaking so that 3db difference must be a major air pressure difference. Even if I turn my JCM 900 on half power at 50 Watts, it's still way louder than the 66 probably because of the preamp stage boost like most other tube amps have now. I mean, why would guys like Gilmour or any of the rock dinosaurs use 100watt heads instead of say a 25-30w for such a small difference in volume? Probably because of how much air they can push going through 8 x 12 speakers. Jimi told Jim Marshall his first JTM45 wasn't loud enough and thus the JTM45/100w was born and on to the Super Lead 100w. Robin Trower might record with an 18-20Watt amps at times but on stage he uses 2 x 100watt heads. Back in the early 70s, I had a 25 watt Ampeg tube amp and when the drummer started playing I was completely drowned out till I nabbed a Fender Twin Reverb then I was fine. When my 66 was next to the dude with the heavily overdriven 4x10 60 watt Fender Deville and some other guy was using my amp I sat in the back of the room and could hardly hear the 66 compared to the other guy blasting the Deville. So if a 60 watt is overdriven, the volume practically doubles so it would probably be more of a db difference. Also, there was a third guy playing through a Marshall DSL401 which I believe is a 40watt amp and I could hardly hear him playing either though he had his amp cranked with some kind of boost because as the end of Purple Haze he left his guitar on the floor feeding back but it was still just like background noise compared to the Deville guy. In addition, the Deville had 4x10s speakers while myself and the other player were both using 1x12s so there's less paper being pushed by air as well. The drums were also mic'd into a fairly robust PA which didn't help matters. That said, I believe that a 30watt could stand up to a 50watt or even a 100 watt solid state amp and it does to my Marshall MG100DFX solid state when I run them in stereo, but a 60 or 100 watt name brand tube amp is usually way, way louder than a 25-30w tube amp when overdriven imho, not just through scientific info or what the clubs permit but from having owned many tube amps over the past 30+ years and knowing what they sounded like cranked. Don't get me wrong though, I absolutely love the beautiful, smooth tone of the KT66s and GZ34 responsiveness of my Z! I just wish it was rated at 50 watts or (half of what the Marshall JTM45/100 4 x KT66 ) is rated at which has 2 x 50watt output transformers. Only problem is with that architecture would probably take a different type wiring scheme since that amp employs 3 x 12AX7s preamp tubes instead of the 66 w/ 1 12AX7 + the EF86/GZ34 rectifier, which might also be an improvement. Since we're being brutally honest here I just think that a 50watt transformer would be the ticket IMHO ;-)
Only the really positive flip side, I just nabbed one of those Eventide TimeFactor delay/modulator stompboxes that has the high end studio delays like the Red House delay, reverse, Chorus, Univibe types normally costing $2-10k in their rack units. That along with an OCD and the Route 66 and 2 x Celestion Greenback G12Cs (like in the new JH 100 Stack and Vintage Modern Series) and a Strat is hands down the most pristine, beautiful tone ever that can be matched to any Gilmour or early Jimi sound with equal or better tone like a polished studio sound post production! I'll post a clip later. Happy Holidays to all!
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Post by fuzzkarl on Dec 19, 2007 11:45:14 GMT -7
If you can stand in front of your 66 without being pumbled & shacking windows,I would say you deffinetly have a faulty amp. Seeing that it was broke when you bought it I wouldn't be so quick to rule it out. Even the best tech can overlook things.Its not likely the builder will. I also run a 112 w/ vintage 30 and my set up will HURT YOU unattiuated even without a pedal slamming it. wattage ratting is deseving,most companies rate conservatively. Some don't. My friends 50 watt(6550's) marshall is almost twice as loud as his freinds 100(el34's).Side by side. Some curcuits are more efficent.My 100wt marshall was much louder with a 6550 retube than it was with el34's. small change ,big difference. My 66 through a 112 attinuated on 3(thats almost 6db)read at 99db on meter.Thats F*@#ING LOUD. I think in the setting you discribed,moving more air w/ more speakers would lend greatly. Just a thought,good luck.
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Post by billyguitar on Dec 19, 2007 12:02:40 GMT -7
Two Greenbacks? Your volume is turning into heat. Try some more efficient speakers and you'll easily keep up with the DeVille. The second thing I'm thinking is you guys are way too loud! You're killing your ears.
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Post by iggs on Dec 19, 2007 12:10:46 GMT -7
Speaker efficiency is a HUGE factor in perceived "loudness".
Before I got the Z-Best (stock, wired to 8ohms with V30 on top and G12H on bottom) I had a VHT 4x12. It was a stereo/mono cab and even if I was to set it for stereo operation and use only one vertical half (so a 2x12 like the Z-Best) ... it was WAAAAAY louder then the Z-Best. You could "feel" it pushing more air. VHT cab had custom 50W Eminence speakers inside which are very efficient speakers.
Also, when directly in front of the Z-Best, I can hear the top speaker being louder for sure ... there are so many variables in perceived loudness of the amp.
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frank9310
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Posts: 146
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Post by frank9310 on Dec 19, 2007 14:09:28 GMT -7
iggs: I have V-30 and a G12H that I took out and swapped them for the new G12C 25 watters hoping it would get me close to Jimi;s orginial JTM45 tone which it has. However, do you think it would sound much louder with the V30 and G12H at least perceived loudness? I know that V30 does cut through the mix better but only have that in a 1x12 cab which is easier to lug around. I have a 100watt Celestion that was pulled from an early 90s JCM 900/ 100w combo. I wonder if that would sound louder in a 1x12 than a 60w V30 and if the 66 could power it?
fuzzkarl: The amp is fine I think. I'd just like it to be about 20 watts louder. Does anyone know how if/how you can beef up an amp without mic'ing it? Like somehow take the output of the amp and boost it with some clean power amp before the speakers?
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Post by iggs on Dec 19, 2007 14:43:18 GMT -7
iggs: I have V-30 and a G12H that I took out and swapped them for the new G12C 25 watters hoping it would get me close to Jimi;s orginial JTM45 tone which it has. However, do you think it would sound much louder with the V30 and G12H at least perceived loudness? I know that V30 does cut through the mix better but only have that in a 1x12 cab which is easier to lug around. I have a 100watt Celestion that was pulled from an early 90s JCM 900/ 100w combo. I wonder if that would sound louder in a 1x12 than a 60w V30 and if the 66 could power it? fuzzkarl: The amp is fine I think. I'd just like it to be about 20 watts louder. Does anyone know how if/how you can beef up an amp without mic'ing it? Like somehow take the output of the amp and boost it with some clean power amp before the speakers? I think the V30 will sound "louder" ... that 100W Celestion will definitely sound louder as well, no issues with '66 powering it. You could always get a THD Hot Plate, take the line out and put it through a power amp or a power section of another amp that has serial Send/Return loop (just plug it into the "return"). How loud do you need it to be??? LOL!!! ;D I mean ... I play live all the time and Route 66 with my VHT 4x12 was uncontrollably loud! I always had to attenuate it with the Hot Plate to -8db. Especially with OD and Fuzz pedals, it was difficult to control the feedback just from the sheer volume. That's why I downsized to the Z-Best. I haven't played live with this setup yet, but I cranked it at home and I'm thinking it will be just right. Places we play are not large venues, but are definitely bigger then just regular bars. Also, these days, unlike in the 70's ... the monitoring is much better so you don't need 4 Marshall full stacks to be heard!
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Post by iggs on Dec 19, 2007 14:52:39 GMT -7
We're getting OT here but ...
I used to have a 70's VOX AC30 and went to a gig once where somebody else had a 100W Marshall JCM900 combo. The guy was like ... "30W? ... is that going to be loud enough?" Long story short ... the Vox just completely drowned out the cranked Marshall.
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Post by zdogma on Dec 19, 2007 18:03:41 GMT -7
iggs: I have V-30 and a G12H that I took out and swapped them for the new G12C 25 watters hoping it would get me close to Jimi;s orginial JTM45 tone which it has. However, do you think it would sound much louder with the V30 and G12H at least perceived loudness? I know that V30 does cut through the mix better but only have that in a 1x12 cab which is easier to lug around. I have a 100watt Celestion that was pulled from an early 90s JCM 900/ 100w combo. I wonder if that would sound louder in a 1x12 than a 60w V30 and if the 66 could power it? fuzzkarl: The amp is fine I think. I'd just like it to be about 20 watts louder. Does anyone know how if/how you can beef up an amp without mic'ing it? Like somehow take the output of the amp and boost it with some clean power amp before the speakers? You can use a Weber Mass or Hotplate to bring the signal down to line level, then slave it into a power amp.
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frank9310
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Post by frank9310 on Dec 19, 2007 19:23:52 GMT -7
iggs: You just hit the nail on the head! I happen to have a THD Hotplate and at home, that allows me to run both the 2x12 8 ohm cab and the 1x12 V30 8 Ohm cab and it has a beautiful mix of tone and does sound louder. Only problem is you show up to an open stage with a 2x12 and a 1x12 cabs and they would probably quickly show you to the door. However, I just did a little experiment taking the line out of the THD Hot Plate into the CD input of my Marshall 100DFX solid state amp and it produced about the same level of volume as the 66 with the 2 cabs and didn't sound as good or rich and smooth. It had more the harsh edge from the solid state components.
zdogma: Thanks, already tried!
iggs: On the other hand, I went to another open stage last Thursday and a guy brought a Vox AC 30 and set up behind the keyboard player who was hosting the event and he turned aorund and yelled at the guy to turn it down as his AC 30 was super loud. That was at a lower volume venue and where the blues purists abhor the sight of a pedal which absolutely drives me insane because I doubt they would tell Jimi or Buddy Guy they aren't real blues players. What's up with that anyway? In the 70s if you didn't have a pedal you were square and now if you have one you're not a blues player.
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