frank9310
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Post by frank9310 on Nov 3, 2007 16:53:46 GMT -7
When I play a Strat through just a Fulltone '69 Fuzz through the Route 66 into Celestion Vintage 30 or G12C new Hendrix Greenback speakers, I get the most killer Monterey type sound known to man. Cleans up beautifully into a sweet overdrive sound and nasty when you want.
However, when I turn on a wah in front or behind the fuzz or the Fulltone Deja Vibe in front or behind of a Line 6 DL4 Delay, the tone loses much of it's fullness and the fuzz sounds super thin or almost non-existent running it after the Deja Vibe which is recommended by Fulltone. If I run the Vibe after the fuzz, I get this very phasey beady type fuzz sound that's not much fuzzlike at all. Same with the delay. It really sucks all the juiciness out of the fuzz. Also same with using a wah. I have to put an OCD or Keely Java in between the wah and fuzz to act as a buffer or I get oscillation or the wah sweep disappears. I never noticed this with a Marshall JCM 900 probably because there so many built in preamp levels that they probably act as kind of a buffer so they'll all work together nicely although the overall tone is more processed and muddied up than this pure tone 66. Anyone else experience this and know how to get them all to work together?
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Post by zdogma on Nov 4, 2007 6:14:01 GMT -7
When I play a Strat through just a Fulltone '69 Fuzz through the Route 66 into Celestion Vintage 30 or G12C new Hendrix Greenback speakers, I get the most killer Monterey type sound known to man. Cleans up beautifully into a sweet overdrive sound and nasty when you want. However, when I turn on a wah in front or behind the fuzz or the Fulltone Deja Vibe in front or behind of a Line 6 DL4 Delay, the tone loses much of it's fullness and the fuzz sounds super thin or almost non-existent running it after the Deja Vibe which is recommended by Fulltone. If I run the Vibe after the fuzz, I get this very phasey beady type fuzz sound that's not much fuzzlike at all. Same with the delay. It really sucks all the juiciness out of the fuzz. Also same with using a wah. I have to put an OCD or Keely Java in between the wah and fuzz to act as a buffer or I get oscillation or the wah sweep disappears. I never noticed this with a Marshall JCM 900 probably because there so many built in preamp levels that they probably act as kind of a buffer so they'll all work together nicely although the overall tone is more processed and muddied up than this pure tone 66. Anyone else experience this and know how to get them all to work together? Yeah, this is a common problem. You can have a buffer built into the wah (that's what I did) and that seems to fix it. I've never used the deja vibe, unfortunately. Here's the guy who modded my wah, Greg Djerrhian (he used to be a bargain for Americans, but with the dollar now not so much...) www.solidgoldfx.com/wah.php
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frank9310
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Post by frank9310 on Nov 4, 2007 14:36:29 GMT -7
zdogma: Thanks. I've seen those floating around from foxrox electronics and area51tubeaudiodesigns but once you install those there's no on/off to take the wah back to the original sound so I usually just stick a pedal in between the wah and fuzz and that gets rid of the oscillation but any kind of buffer colors the sound somewhat and reduces the amount of fuzz/gain.
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Post by dixiechicken on Nov 4, 2007 15:42:47 GMT -7
DC here! I have a theory about that - I can hear the class sigh - not another one. The wah pedal is basically just a sweepable bandpass filter, usually voiced in such a manner it scoops out the frequencies it is sweeping through - thereby removing/lowering the amplitude of some of frequencies you have just added by the od-pedals. Many wahs can sound very thin running them direct into the amp - right? Me thinks a better solution would be to split the guitar signal before the wah. You should then after the wah have two channel mixer or summing amp with independent volumes - one for the wah-signal and one for the direct sound. Then you could mix in the amount of wah-effect you'd want into the direct/overdrive channel. The output of the mixer/summing amp need not be stereo. Will this work you ask?? Haven't got a clue - but I think it could and it sounds neat. ;D Cheers: Dixiechicken
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2007 20:35:50 GMT -7
The area51 does have an on/off so you can bypass the buffer.
I have one in my 80's cry baby.
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frank9310
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Post by frank9310 on Nov 4, 2007 20:50:37 GMT -7
Hey DC I think I'm going to try something like that just using a simple AB-Y splitter running 2 amps in stereo! That way I can keep the tone sucking Line 6 DL4 delay and wah running through a separate amp and keep my fuzz running thick through the 66! Will let you know how it goes! Doc! yes but don't you have to turn it off from inside the wah? I wanted something you could bend over and switch on/off on the fly. I have one of his Italian Vintage Wah kits I installed into a Dunlop wah and it has the most authentic vintage wah sound of my many wahs from the new Hendrix JH1B to the Vox Clyde, to the Fulltone Clyde deluxe but I love them all! I think I'll contact Dan at Area51 and get some of those! Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2007 21:19:23 GMT -7
Yep, you have to switch it from inside. Works nice though, for me anyways. I just set it and leave it.
Sounds like you have some nice wahs. I just got me a RMC 2 and I like it a lot.
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frank9310
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Post by frank9310 on Nov 5, 2007 10:21:00 GMT -7
Ah yes I've heard lots of nice things about the Teese wahs and one of my all-time favorites Frank Marino uses a modded one but he swears by them. I mainly use the Fulltone Clyde Deluxe because it has a really smoothe organic sound and sometimes like to switch from the "Jimi" mode to the "Whacked" mode since there are 3 with the third being the "Shaft" mode. The Jimi mode is the standard Clyde sound and the Whacked is really what some of Jimi's wahs that were modded to have that low end synth like wah that kind of morphs into the sweep with a really fat mmmmwwwwwwaaaaahh. So if I kick on a pedal ike the OCD or GT-500 or '70s - 69 fuzz and the wah sweep sounds too thin, I'll bend over and switch on the whacked setting and that gives it an almost regular Jimi sound because of the treble in the other pedals cutting some of that sweep out eliminating the need for a buffer. Works sometimes, not all. I'll have to try a Teese wah sometime for sure.
One thing is certain though. I'm finding myself pulling out old pedals that didn't sound good on my Marshall JCM 900 but sound great on the Route 66! For example, I just AB'd the Dunlop JDF2 re-issue Fuzz Face from 2006 with re-issued NKT-275 germanium transistors against the Fulltone '69 that's been discontinued and selling on ebay now for $250-300 and son-of-a-gun if the Dunlop doesn't sound bigger and fatter with more gain and sustain! The Fulltone sounds awesome as well, but thinner in comparison with all 4 volume-bias-contour-fuzz controls dimed vs. just a volume-fuzz controls on the Dunlop. When I played that same Dunlop Fuzz on the JCM 900 it sounded way too dark and muddy, probably because of all the garbage gain stages they already have built into that amp. So, this just goes to prove Doc Z's theory as absolutely correct that the less controls you have, the better the tone! This applies to the full signal path between the guitar and amp I believe now and is a whole new enlightening experience for me with using analog and/or digital pedals with the Route 66. Choose them wisely and carefully and re-try out all the edals you stuffed in a drawer that didn't sound great with your ther amps. Chances are, the analog ones that have the least controls will sound best.
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Post by edoetsch on Nov 9, 2007 11:41:56 GMT -7
First off, if you have 2 fuzzes, try one before the wah and one after.
I currently go: guitar -> fuzz factory -> Vox reissue wah -> Coleman Fuzz or Fuzz Head
I have also noticed that wahs behave differently with different fuzzes.
I have a Keeley Fuzz Head and recently bought the Coleman Astro Fuzz (Cambridge MA) and find that the Coleman lets "more wah" through than the fuzz head, especially on lower notes.
So try several fuzzes if you can.
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frank9310
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Post by frank9310 on Nov 9, 2007 20:45:25 GMT -7
Thanks edoetsch. Definitely the fuzz all act different'ly before and after the wah. The Fulltone '70s you can't even turn a wah on or you get wild oscillation as with any silicon fuzz. So you basically have to put it before the wah. A lot of that depends on what volume you have the fuzz set on as well on how much wah sweep can be heard.
doc001: I shipped my 3 best Wahs to Dan at Area51Tubeaudiodesigns.com as you recommended his wah buffer. Dan is awesome. He's going to install the buffer in all 3 and he told me that since I bought his Italian Wah kit a few months back, that he's been winding his inductprs in house and they have better sweet spots and overall sweep so he's going to upgrade that wah too! Thanks again for reminding me about him!
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Post by Telemanic on Nov 13, 2007 7:20:41 GMT -7
Yep frank, it's an age old problem with fuzz pedals. A fuzz face has a very high input impedance, in fact if i may do a cliff claven moment here, .... a little known fact is that the Arbiter Fuzz face was by all accounts the FIRST tru by-pass pedal ever! The designers found that the impedance was so high that when the effect was switched off, the guitar signal was just terrible from having to pass thru the circuits own bypass. Because of the input impedance Fuzz face circuits only like to see the signal right out of the guitar, first in the signal chain and do not react well or at least the same, placed after other effects. In fact they really dont like things after them either! Especially buffered pedals like Boss, etc. Pretty snoby little pedals huh! ha! Anyway, to me nothing sounds as good as the guitar into fuzz into amp. It seems as i add more effects, i like the fuzz less. By no means am i implying that there is any "rules" to the fuzz, heck ... a ton of guy's have come up with killer sounds by experimenting. There are so many other variables to account for as well. You can always hear Jimi's wah squealing as he placed it before the fuzz usually. The buffer in your wahs will solve that, but i'm still not sure i like mine, .... seems like there's always a trade off. The vibe placement unfortunately is just experimentation, but if ya want classic Jimi follow his signal chain. Play on!
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frank9310
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Post by frank9310 on Nov 13, 2007 10:51:03 GMT -7
telemanic: Thanks for the feedback! I got the other message you replied to but now I'm all jammed up trying to finish 2 website projects. Hey, the other reason I delayed is I recored something with the fuzz and the tone sounds ok but it's noisy as hell. I even got the Cakewalk Sonar software with some noise filter plugin but not really sure how to use it yet. Then I also just tried a Decimator ProRackG wit the stereo mod that's suposed to cut out 60 cycle hum and noise but that seems to cut out the sustain trails and definitely any noise suppressor clips off uni-vibe throbs. I'll go post that in the sound thing. Can you tell me how can I cut down or eliminate that from recordings or even live? If I turn the fuzz volume down, I lose the gain and fuzz fatness and when I turn it up to where I get the sound I want, the noise is almost as loud as the sound. Check out the new clip I just posted in the Sounds section. I'll reply to your other post asap! Customers calling! Thanks a lot for all your great advice!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2007 15:58:02 GMT -7
doc001: I shipped my 3 best Wahs to Dan at Area51Tubeaudiodesigns.com as you recommended his wah buffer. Dan is awesome. He's going to install the buffer in all 3 and he told me that since I bought his Italian Wah kit a few months back, that he's been winding his inductprs in house and they have better sweet spots and overall sweep so he's going to upgrade that wah too! Thanks again for reminding me about him! Glad I could help. I thought he was a good guy to deal with. Tell us how you like them upgrades when you get them back. When he worked on my Cry Baby he installed his new pot and the inductor. I like them.
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frank9310
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Post by frank9310 on Nov 13, 2007 16:37:38 GMT -7
Ah! Sounds good! I can't wait to get them back. Now if I could only get the Fulltone '70s or Hendrix BC108 silicon fuzz faces to stop oscillating when using them with other overdrive type pedals! Dan is the man at Area51tubeaudiodesigns. He spent a lot of time with me on the phone about several wahs I had in the past and is always willing to go the extra mile to get you what you're after tonewise. I'd like to check some of his other stuff out like that tube tremolo with the Route 66 but not sure how that would work out. I'd be afraid to start messing with the circuitry.
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Post by Telemanic on Nov 16, 2007 21:57:13 GMT -7
Hi again frank, sorry i was out for a few days. Man i'm sorry im not the guy to give very good advice in regard to recording, at least not with any of the new stuff. As for live playing, what make of Fuzz pedal did ya say you were using, and tell me again your other pedals if any and what amp too.
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frank9310
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Post by frank9310 on Nov 17, 2007 10:10:18 GMT -7
telemanic: No prob at all. I'm usually busy too but I really like this forum and all you regular guys who frequent it are really great sounding boards and for the ego! haha Actually, last night I started playing around with the new Hendrix Fuzz with het BC-108 silicon transistors into the Fulltone Deja 2. I found one little trick to getting the Deja to not squash the Fuzz. Turn the Fuzz volume all the way up and the Fuzz all the way up and then run into the Deja and then turn the guitar volume only to around 3-6 depending where you have your amp volume set. That gives you a pristine Jimi Machine Gun intro sound and then when you want to go bombastic, crank up the guitar volume and you're in Jimi plays Berkeley terrirtory, where he holds the note for around 60 seconds on the high E up top of the neck around the 17th fret where it's usually hard to get sustain. Still lots of noise but I guess that goes with the turf. When I add a noise gate it kills the tone and sustain. I'll post another clip with that new setup later. Thanks bro!
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Post by Telemanic on Nov 20, 2007 7:48:49 GMT -7
Cool!! Glad ya found some nice tones there man! Hey i know there are a lot of great fuzz's out there these days, and to be honest i haven't tried the Dunlop, but you might someday think about trying the MJM london Fuzz. Michael M makes some of the most spot on pedals ever. While a lot of builders are kind of into re-creating the old design but with a few "improvements" or add ons, he really in almost every case makes an EXACT clone but only with select tuned components. I have or have had a number of his pedals and in each case they are IMHO, about as good as it gets shy of a real oldie! The London comes in a Germ and Si version. Amazingly authentic and if your patient on ebay you can find one used pretty reasonable ( $125.00- $150.00). Not bad for that level of sound quality. The Germanium is spot on early Jimi. Take care Bud!
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frank9310
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Now dig this baby...
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Post by frank9310 on Nov 20, 2007 8:20:06 GMT -7
Ah! Yes I've heard of those London Fuzz pedals before being good! I'll have to check one out! I just traded a guy for a Electro Harmonix English Muff'n for a Buddy Guy wah and some cash and man does that ever add some EL34/Super Lead like tube tone to the Route 66! I'd have to say for the best overall sustain, clarity and overdrive with the least amount of noise, it's a toss up between the Muff'n and the Fulltone OCD though had I left my OCD at V2 instead of upgrading to V3 the OCD would probably be the winner. Something about the 500k drive pot from the earlier 100k pot made it a little too dark for my taste but changing the tone cap from .22uF to .47uf made the mids a little fatter which was an improvement in the upgrade. If anyone has an OCD v1 or v2 and goes for the upgrade kit, just change the cap and forget changing the pots.
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Post by eyeballkidd on Feb 26, 2008 1:10:23 GMT -7
I always run the wah after the fuzz and have never had a problem.
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Post by edoetsch on Feb 26, 2008 13:41:40 GMT -7
if you have 2 or more OD's/fuzzes try every combo you have with od/wah/od and you'll notice one setup "wahs" the best. (bad play on words there)
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