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Post by drew on Jul 28, 2006 8:21:01 GMT -7
Thanks Curt! And Tas for the welcome back. I'm anxious to crank on another 66. A little less volume would be a cool as long it doesn't loose it's 66 mojo.
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Post by kledbet on Jul 28, 2006 13:14:17 GMT -7
Are the Russian kt66's the ones to go with? When I had my Route (yes I sold it) it had the Chinese tubes in it and it really never worked for me. Was the problem I was using the wrong KT 66's? My Route was kind of sterile clean, ice picky etc. break up didn't happen to much till 1 on the volume.
Final question, are the tubes available from Doug's tubes the same as the HP ones? Many thanks, this is one of the best (and level headed forums going).
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Post by myles on Jul 28, 2006 14:43:27 GMT -7
Hi. I have a RT 66 that has chinese kt66s in it. The recommendation is for gt kt66hp, but these are no longer available. I love the amp and have since gotten a Maz 38 sr to go with it, bit I think the sound is maybe not what it could be. Anyone have any ideas or recommendations? Thanks,Scott I just answered a question on this subject in the ask myles area but here is what I said after some info was discovered by another forum member: Hers a pic Actually it is not a claim that they are made on GT tooling it is a fact that they are GT KT66HPs. GT is now out of these but some folks had bought bulk from GT in the past and Doug was one of them. Basically what happened was GT had their own tooling and line in the Reflector complex in Moscow. To keep the tube as ours GT had to build something like 5000 per month. GT had a big stock of them and needed warehouse space. Many thousands were sold off in bulk factory sealed boxes. Unfortunately .... there were problems in the tube complex over there ( many of you read about them in regard to Sovtek and Mike Mathews perhaps). The GT line was shut down and they cannot even contact any of the folks that ran it to turn it back on. It looks like these are a GT item that is now in the past and will go down in history as one of the first GT tooled tubes. The HP (high power) is not really "higher power" to be accurate. It is a tube that was patterned off the specs and characteristics of the Genelex KT-66. The HP came about because the tube would keep working in the GT S-75 and Dual 75 and these amps have about 525 plate volts and would blow up any other aftermarket KT66. Maybe they should have been called KT-66HV for high voltage. In any case, folks with JTM-45's love them and I used a ton of these in Fender 6L6 amps. They sound huge in Fender amps. So ... yup .... the only difference between these and the GT version is that the original silkscreen is still on the tube as they looked when delivered to GT. There will also be a date code that will generally be earlier than 2005 and in many cases as early as 1998 or earlier. They are a spectacular tube. In fact, Dr Z. liked the tube so much that this was part of the reason for the Route 66 design in the first place. I guess when I want some for my Marshall I will have to call Doug myself. To answer the question .... have I heard them? Hundreds of them over the years in various amps. By the way .... date codes prior to 2003 had a mica design that I preferred but either design is super.
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Post by myles on Jul 28, 2006 14:45:27 GMT -7
Did I miss something?? What happened to the GT KT66 HP's?? PDW Just answered this up one post and also in another area of the forum.
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Post by kledbet on Jul 28, 2006 15:10:18 GMT -7
Miles, I take it that there is a noticeable difference in the chinese and russian kt66 tubes. My first route had russian and I know that I liked it better.... a little darker, earlier breakup, and a kind of earthy tone. My last Route was not the same, and it had chinese tubes in it. By the way Doug has 100 tubes left of the HP type.... I just bought 8 of them with plans to try another Route 66 in the future.
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Post by myles on Jul 28, 2006 15:41:59 GMT -7
Miles, I take it that there is a noticeable difference in the chinese and russian kt66 tubes. My first route had russian and I know that I liked it better.... a little darker, earlier breakup, and a kind of earthy tone. My last Route was not the same, and it had chinese tubes in it. By the way Doug has 100 tubes left of the HP type.... I just bought 8 of them with plans to try another Route 66 in the future. I find the HPs are fuller and have a bigger sound image. They are just fuller. They are also smoother and more creamy than the C's. One time I brought a duet of them to Paul Rivera and we plugged them into a Quiana that had Svetlana 6L6s installed. Paul used the words "creamy" and he said it made the amp sound much more vintage. On a side note .... if the tubes are not subjected to too much physical shocking the Chinese will last about 2000 hours or so in moderate service (amp played mostly between 50% and 70% output. The HP will go over twice that long easily.
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Post by kledbet on Jul 28, 2006 16:17:57 GMT -7
Miles what you are describing is the difference I heard between the two tubes. My Route was fat and creamy and moved into breakup easily. My last one was very different, and now I know it was the tubes. I was told that the Chinese tube was the way to go, so I did. I was really never able to get my Route with the Chinese to sound the way I wanted it to. I have heard many fine recordings of the Route just giving it up, and I'll bet most of those had Russian tubes. Anyway thanks for the help, I'll be trying a Route again,(3rd time) in the next few months.
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Post by myles on Jul 28, 2006 16:47:27 GMT -7
Miles what you are describing is the difference I heard between the two tubes. My Route was fat and creamy and moved into breakup easily. My last one was very different, and now I know it was the tubes. I was told that the Chinese tube was the way to go, so I did. I was really never able to get my Route with the Chinese to sound the way I wanted it to. I have heard many fine recordings of the Route just giving it up, and I'll bet most of those had Russian tubes. Anyway thanks for the help, I'll be trying a Route again,(3rd time) in the next few months. To compound the issue, there are a number of different Chinese KT66 tubes. The main producer is Shuguang. But there are also the tubes sold under the "Valve Art" name that generally come from "Sino" which is not really a tube factory as much as it is an umbrella that is something of a co-op for a number of smaller Chinese tube factories. The differences in the Chinese KT66 tubes can be very wide indeed. For now, just snatch up some from Doug Preston. Mike at KCA still has them listed as well but has a note of "low stock alert". I have played with the Sovtek KT-66 for a few years and was never happy with the tone in any amp. It was not a smooth tube at all. Sort of a 6L6 with the raspy distortion transition of a 6550. I have not yet played with the Tung Sol reissue of the KT66 from Sovtek. I have played with a number of the Sovtek reissue tubes and have found them to have a nice QA spread that is not too wide and are generally darn nice tubes. I am looking forward to grabbing some of these down the road (about 50 to test) and see where things go. Maybe there will be another great choice for amp guys. My hat is off to Mike Matthews at Sovtek for continuing to come out with new tube after new tube. Maybe this will be a nice KT66 but from the construction it may be far off from a GEC. Remember ... KT means "kinkless tetrode" and these tubes were designed and noted for a lack of the "kink" or bump in the tube's response and that is one reason the tube is so smooth. I do not know if this Tung Sol is a true KT. There are many folks selling "6CA7" tubes that are nothing more than their EL-34 repackaged with a bigger glass bottle. This is not the same as the 6CA7 which has an active beam forming element which is not in the EL-34. But ... that new KT66 will at least be another option. One thing to keep in mind about the Route 66 ... it has a very pricy ouput transformer that is implemented in ultra-linear fashion. KT-66s love to be run in this way. That is part of the magic of these amps that you miss when using a 6L6 even though they are totally swappable with a bias adjustment. A KT66HP in a #3 rating from the GT system is sort of the same bias ballpark wise as a 6L6GE in a #7 rating. The KT-66 putting out 85mA or so at a given bias setting will have the 6L6 yield 72mA or so at the same voltages. Wow ... I hope if I said anything at all of value here somebody will be able to find it!
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Post by kledbet on Jul 28, 2006 17:51:44 GMT -7
Just to make sure I understand... I'm a black and white kind of guy!!! Do you prefer the HP type of tube over the Chinese.... from my experience with both of these tubes I can say that for me the HP type was better.
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Post by kledbet on Jul 28, 2006 17:55:13 GMT -7
One last thing... Doug's tubes of the HP Kt66 are date coded for 1999. Remember he has about 100 left. Since I bought 8 and they are good for about 3-4.000 hours.... that gives be about 30,000 hours of playing time :-)
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Post by myles on Jul 28, 2006 20:22:40 GMT -7
Just to make sure I understand... I'm a black and white kind of guy!!! Do you prefer the HP type of tube over the Chinese.... from my experience with both of these tubes I can say that for me the HP type was better. I personally preferred the HP very much more .... and excuse that simply awful grammar
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Post by taswegian on Jul 28, 2006 20:24:07 GMT -7
Wow Myles, thanks for all that information! How lucky we are to have you on this forum! Kledbet, I couldn't get my Rt66 to sound ice-picky if tried...I'll bet it was a combination bad tubes/ bad bias. I have GEC's in but my amp sounded great with the GThp's as well. Pity...they are a great tube.
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Post by kledbet on Jul 28, 2006 20:38:21 GMT -7
Tasweigan, I think what I meant by ice-picky is that the amp stays very linear and does not move into breakup easily. My first Route did it nicely especially with a bit of boosting like with a treble or clean boost. My last Route had all new tubes (twice) and the bias set by a pro. I think the big difference is the Chinese tubes. They would be better in hi-fi use and have a good sound but certainly not that Bluesbreaker kind of sound that the amp is capable of. I plan to get another Route and start over again... this time with the kind of tube that will get fat and creamy. It was pretty frustrating before. Right now I'm enjoying the Maz 18 NR Head. I am hoping the Route will be another nice addition. And yes many thanks to Myles, my education continues under his patient instruction, thanks to you to Tas ;-)
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Post by myles on Jul 28, 2006 20:41:02 GMT -7
One last thing... Doug's tubes of the HP Kt66 are date coded for 1999. Remember he has about 100 left. Since I bought 8 and they are good for about 3-4.000 hours.... that gives be about 30,000 hours of playing time :-) Actually, I have some of the original set of the HPs in a #5 rating biased at 30mA in a Super Reverb of a client where the amp sits in a studio and gets used virtually every day. The tubes are approaching 6000 hours and I just keep adjusting the bias as they wear or age about once ever six months and there is still a lot of travel on the bias pot and when I check the tubes at RCA specs that should show 85mA (a 6L6 runs about 72 for an average tube) still gives me 79mA. Many feel that even at 72mA at 6L6 settings the tube would be fine and dandy so we are better than fine and dandy with about 5700 hours on the duet. As a side note, they are also still within 10% of each other on a static match. The amp does not get bounced around in transit and is left to warm up on standby a full five minutes before played. When it is shut down it is on standby for five minutes or more before the AC is turned off. The amp also run off a filtered power supply and is checked two times per year.
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Post by kledbet on Jul 30, 2006 21:46:18 GMT -7
After doing a good deal of research I think that the problem with my last two amps were the Chinese power tubes biased to cold. At some tube sights they mention that for the Chinese tubes to sound really good they have to be biased hot... so the usual 37 ma per tube is not enough. AT 37 per tube they sound glassy and maybe good for real clean chicken pickin'. I also think that the big problem I have had with ghost notes is very much hightened by the chinese tubes and underbiasing. My first Route that I actually liked, I'm sure had Russian HP tubes and the other ones I had used the Chinese. So I just bought another Route 66 and I'm going for it again. My last two Routes just did not have that Beano, fat, creamy sound. Now that I think I know the problem I'm chasing the dragon one more time..... wish me luck.
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Post by prowler on Jul 31, 2006 3:50:38 GMT -7
I've never been a fan of Chinese power tubes.
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Post by kledbet on Aug 1, 2006 16:55:55 GMT -7
Myles, here is part of the info from the tubestore about the Chinese tubes. They recommend running them hot if you need early breakup. I also noticed that my last 2 routes had GT KT66-C tubes with a rating of 7. Wouldn't that make the breakup kind of late, and the treble kind of pronounced? Anyway here is the info,
"Bias these tubes hot for best results. While most tubes we tested were biased at around 60% of their rated plate dissipation, the Shuguangs sound very bright and crystalline in this range. Some may find it too bright. At 75% of rated dissipation, these tubes really provide that feeling of rolling thunder. If you want Country clean, bias them for 60-70%. If you need earlier breakup and a beefier sound then turn up the heat, but keep an eye on your power tranny".
Tasweigan, this is what I meant when I said my Route had kind of ice pick highs. This reviewer called it crystalline. Anyway my next Route arrives on Friday, and we will try it all again.
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Post by kledbet on Aug 1, 2006 16:57:13 GMT -7
By the way what would the milliamps be if I was running the chinese tubes at 75% of their dissapation?
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Post by prowler on Aug 1, 2006 18:18:50 GMT -7
My guess would be around 40mA.
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