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Post by John on Mar 3, 2006 7:27:42 GMT -7
EDIT: READ BELOW...ALL I NEEDED WAS SOME NEW TUBES!!!!
It arrived yesterday. I am SO disappointed in this amp! I have the volume pegged on full, bass: 3/4 the way up and treble: 3/4 the way up.
Yes, it's incredibly touch sensitive, very dynamic, but there is no sustain. It's lifeless. All shout but no singing. (shouting from the dynamics) There's not much overdrive (considering I've got the volume pegged). I know the bass & treble also act as gain knobs, so that's why I've got them on almost on full. And I'm playing a Les Paul Custom. I switched back and forth from a Mesa 2x12 half back and a Marshall Wolverine speaker. (Wolverine sounded better)
Good sounding rhythm crunch, but that's with everything on full. Nothing like the drive and power from the Dave Grissom example from the Dr. Z website.
I'm not looking for Mesa-Boogie type sustain and overdrive, but this is ridiculous. My MAZ Jr has WAY more overdrive/sustain than this.
Am I missing something?
I know many of you will say get pedals. But pedals should be for enhancing a good original sound. This is not it.
Until the volume gets above 66%, it is nothing but a pure clean amp. That's with guitar volume on full and EQ as I described.
I'm looking for some kind of saturated sound when guitar volume is on 10, then when backing off the guitar volume, clean up for some crunch. Right now, I've got 'some' saturation w/ guitar volume on 10, then when back off....pure clean.
The tubes that came with it could be old. (GTKT-66HP #4) I have new KT-66s and a matched phase inverter showing up today. But I don't know if old tubes could make this much difference. Maybe the bias could be cold?
The good Dr. told me that KT-66s take upwards of 15 minutes to fully heat up. I've let the thing warm up for 15 minutes before playing.
Even worse, the head rattles with certain notes. I took the chassis out last night and found some loose screws. (loose tag board) But it's doing it again this morning. The tube sockets wiggle too much and that may be causing it. Not the screws holding down the tube sockets....but rather the sockets themselves. You can wiggle the KT-66s more than any other tube socket I've ever touched. It's nothing I can tighten/fix.
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Post by John on Mar 3, 2006 8:25:45 GMT -7
I just went back and played some more. (trying to walk away/come backwith a fresh perspective) There is more overdrive than I remember, but sustain/saturation is still a big problem. I like a pushed hard power amp section of a tube amp, and this feels like it's only working a fraction of what it should be.
You hit a power chord, and it sounds good, but it fades away to a clean sound far sooner than it should. Lead playing is even worse.
I read another thread about the 66, and someone said if you replace the rectifier tube, your amp must be rebiased for that tube. Is this true? I have a brand new GZ34, and I'd like to give it a shot. However the old one is a General Electric GZ34, and I've read those last forever.
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Post by zdogma on Mar 3, 2006 8:39:39 GMT -7
No rebiasing required, to my knowledge.
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Post by JChance on Mar 3, 2006 8:52:00 GMT -7
Yes, rebias is required with Route 66. Go to www.drzamps.com and read the section about biasing and tube info. Will give you some perspective on how to set up your amp. So I guess you bought the Route 66 used? If you think it doesn't have balls, then it's probably not the amp for you. The Route 66 is "vintage overdrive," but not full on saturation. More suited best for the blues & vintage rock styles. I think they rule, but I wouldn't if I were looking for high gain. You might be better suited to an SRZ-65 or 6545. JC
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Post by Curt on Mar 3, 2006 9:07:12 GMT -7
Well buying used you never know who's been in it, Get the bias specs off the Z site or ask Myles, take it to a knowledgable tech and get it dialed in. I had a 66, the press leads people to believe it's a gain monster because the refer to "Marshall" and most think of gain. It cops the early bluebreaker tones, think tweed Fender, mines had serious balls, and sustain, but they are very thick in the mids and serious bottom end, very little top end sizzle.
Here's something on the EF 86 front end, they sound WAY different the the 12 AX7 fronts we're used to hearing and it is an adjustment, was for me, ALSO...hit that EF 86 hard, you got 'buckers but if they are stock put a good clean boost in the chain, if ya have a decent OD pedal, take the gain all the way down, set the pedal slightly hotter than unity and try that.
Hope some of that is of use, they are killer amps, but like most Z's, not for every one. If your used to running your volume up for gain on your MAZ, your not going to get that sound from your 66 w/o pedals.
Curt
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Post by John on Mar 3, 2006 9:27:02 GMT -7
Jchance:
I had already read the Dr. Z website section about rebiasing. But it doesn't say anything about rebiasing to match the GZ34. Will a new rectifier change the plate voltage of the power tubes?
I knew I wasn't going to have a gain monster, but I thought it would be better than this. I'm not looking for preamp gain....just a little hair from the preamp, but I wanted to crank the power tubes for that great sound/feeling.
Thanks for the help/pointers and any additional comments you may have.
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Post by billyguitar on Mar 3, 2006 9:28:07 GMT -7
Hold off on further evaluation until you retube. That's the problem with used amps.
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Post by zdogma on Mar 3, 2006 9:28:56 GMT -7
I used to switch GZ 34's all the time in my old marshall with no bias problems. But I'm no expert on the subject.
Miles wrote a thread about this same question (about an SRZ65) Have a look at "rebiasing required" thread by miles, in the ask the experts section.
He says that if replacing with a rectifier of the same type (specifically GZ34), rebiasing is not necessary. Rebiasing only required with output tube switches or when changing rectifier type.
It is quite possible your amp needs a rebias, by what you are describing, but changing the rectifier should be OK according to miles.
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Post by James on Mar 3, 2006 10:07:02 GMT -7
"but I wanted to crank the power tubes for that great sound/feeling?
Treble on 2 oclock, Bass on 1 oclock and volume around 2 to 4 oclock should give the signiture sound of that amp............with a humbucker........it should rock.....
This gives the exact sound as played on the MP3 example from "prosound"
one mans idea of gain sound vs another mans idea can be drastically different.......so on one hand, maybe you are expecting too much out of the amp...........
But regardless of the level of gain this amp gives or does not give..........IMO........all Z amps that are functioning correctly will give you that good feeling when cranked.........it might not be the level of gain you want, but, if its working correctly than you are gonna say.............wow........this feels good..........at any volume...........Z's just sound magical and so musical.......
So I say get the amp checked out, because, you cannot really get anything but a feel good tone from this amp if its working properly................it must be "outta whack"
........................I decided if I buy any used "Z" off of ebay..........I'll spend an extra few bucks and take it right to a good tech before ever digging in or send it to the Doc himself for a basic bench tune up and have it set back to spec......
Good luck with your amp.....................get it checked out............I bet it just needs a tune up.
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Post by Bill on Mar 3, 2006 10:19:34 GMT -7
IF you eliminate tubes being the culprit, and come to the realization the 66 does not have enough gain, AND you want something say in between a Maz Jr and 6545's gain, AND you sell the 66 and are in the market for another Z...I recommend the RxES. With volume at 2-3 o'clock and the overdose on, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised.
I've been all over the map in Z land and the ES has lots more gain than any Z I've played, understanding I haven't played a 6545 or SRZ-65. I'll try and make/post a sound clip of my ES cranked with nothing but guitar & cord this weekend (if I can get the wife outta the house for a hour or so).
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Post by billyguitar on Mar 3, 2006 11:24:21 GMT -7
The ES also has a huge amount of clean headroom too, using LO input and overdose off. Beautiful, blooming clean. I think more than my Maz 38 sr.
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Post by John on Mar 3, 2006 12:19:07 GMT -7
THE NEW TUBES ARRIVED....just as I pulled my lunch out of the oven. So what did I do? Left my lunch on the counter to get cold as I took the tubes into the basement to tryout in my amp. New KT-66's and new 12ax7 phase inverter...matched phase inverter. (thanks to Myles' suggestion)
Plugged them in, fired up the amp and WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a difference! A bit more overall volume (which I don't care about) but more clarity, more tone, more sustain!!!!!! I have NEVER experienced such a difference from a tube change.
Went upstairs, ate lunch and went back and installed the old tubes to see if I could tell a difference. I was a little disapointed that the old tubes didn't sound as bad as I expected. But I immediately put the new tubes back and WOW!!! There it was again! (I guess there was too much time lapsed while eating) Then I unplugged the Celestion/Wolverine speaker (speaker in a Marshall TSL601 combo) and plugged the Mesa 2x12 half back cabinet.
WOW FURTHER!!!!! There was that vintage midrange chomp I was looking for!! While on the bridge pickup, playing chunky chords, there is a certain midrange 'click' or 'bark' that comes out when a string is plucked (especially the low E or A strings). VERY vintage sounding. NO modern amps get this sound. It comes from pushed power tubes with a not-so-overdriven preamp.
Also, when turning the guitar volume down a bit: now I have crunch instead of clean. That's what I wanted!!! How did I know this was a good sound? I couldn't stop playing!
The sound I purchased the amp for is now there. (man, especially with that Mesa cabinet vs the combo cab). Now I have the 'good original sound' that I can enhance with a pedal or two.
Thanks to anyone who tried to help or gave pointers/suggestions.
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Post by Curt on Mar 3, 2006 13:48:53 GMT -7
So glad it worked out and your happy, My Fleabay Ghia story is VERY similar.... As Lefty said..Buy New !! especially a 66, Lifetime warranty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by taswegian on Mar 3, 2006 14:26:55 GMT -7
All's well that ends well. Wait till you try it through a Z best. I'm waiting for my matched phase inverter from GT. I haven't changed mine in nearly 3 years (I know this is WAY too long) and my amp still sounds great, so I'll be interested if I can hear a difference.
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Post by frunabulaks on Feb 7, 2007 18:33:22 GMT -7
I have been a high end amp owner since 1975 and the 66 is the best amp I have ever played through and I did not feel that way the first week I owned it. It opend up more and more as I played it kind of went through a little break in period. I found a sweet spot at 1:00 Volume and adjust everything else from there. I Have not had a tube change in 2.5 years so I am probably about ready also. I don't know if you have tried pedals through the 66 but it handles them better than any amp I have ever owned.
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Post by mward on Feb 8, 2007 5:24:56 GMT -7
You DID rebias the amp for the new power tubes, right?
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Post by John on Feb 8, 2007 11:30:00 GMT -7
Man, somebody dug this thread up from a year ago. I still love my Route 66. Yes, I did rebias with the new tubes.
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Post by Telemanic on Feb 15, 2007 17:40:01 GMT -7
A little late on this one, and i read thru quickly, so if someone already addressed this i appologize. You do NOT need to re-bias changing the rectifier as long as you stick with the same type ie. GZ34/5AR4. If you for some reason went with a plug in solid state, than yes you would have to, they supply more efficiently and will throw your bias off.
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Post by iggs on Feb 16, 2007 7:20:32 GMT -7
A little late on this one, and i read thru quickly, so if someone already addressed this i appologize. You do NOT need to re-bias changing the rectifier as long as you stick with the same type ie. GZ34/5AR4. If you for some reason went with a plug in solid state, than yes you would have to, they supply more efficiently and will throw your bias off. You don't need to but you should. I have a Phillips 5AR4 and a Valvo 5AR4, both NOS, and the Valvo supplies more voltage to the plates and the current readings are different.
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