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Post by myles on Mar 27, 2011 19:02:55 GMT -7
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Post by myles on Mar 27, 2011 19:05:54 GMT -7
Side note, on the Lord Valve info on Duncan link the wattage of the tubes is very much out of date. Generally: EL84 = 12 watts 6V6 = 14 watts EL34 = 25 watts 6L6 = 30 watts 6550 = 36-42 watts KT88 42-50 watts for the KT88S This is for max plate dissapation.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 6:45:36 GMT -7
Myles, here's a question for you. Why plywood? Why do small amp companies have to use plywood for their cabinets? Especially on small amps that are supposed to be 'grab and go types'. Solid Pine cabinets are quite a bit lighter and have always sounded great to my ears. A solid Pine cabinet (w a plywood baffle) can take 8 to 12 pounds off of a similar sized Plywood cabinet.
Does the weight of these products even get discussed? When I've shopped for after market cabinets the cost (plywood vs pine) was the same.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 9:07:49 GMT -7
Side note, on the Lord Valve info on Duncan link the wattage of the tubes is very much out of date. Generally: EL84 = 12 watts 6V6 = 14 watts EL34 = 25 watts 6L6 = 30 watts 6550 = 36-42 watts KT88 42-50 watts for the KT88S This is for max plate dissapation. I've noticed LV's was different from some others I had seen. Thanks for the heads up Myles.
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Post by jimmysmith on Mar 28, 2011 9:21:03 GMT -7
thank you very much,,,,
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 9:30:48 GMT -7
You're welcome. Be careful in there. Deadly high voltages!
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Post by myles on Mar 28, 2011 9:34:41 GMT -7
Myles, here's a question for you. Why plywood? Why do small amp companies have to use plywood for their cabinets? Especially on small amps that are supposed to be 'grab and go types'. Solid Pine cabinets are quite a bit lighter and have always sounded great to my ears. A solid Pine cabinet (w a plywood baffle) can take 8 to 12 pounds off of a similar sized Plywood cabinet. Does the weight of these products even get discussed? When I've shopped for after market cabinets the cost (plywood vs pine) was the same. Wood choices are a matter of economics and tone. In the past some folks used solid pine (such as Fender) for sonic qualities and cost. Baffle boards were quite thin in the tweed era cabs and only attached in a few places so the baffle itself would also vibrate for tonal reasons. Solid wood can warp more easily. Cabs like marine grade baltic birch ply sound terrific, are costly but very very sturdy. There are forms of construction that are changed depending on the wood used. Cheap cabs are particle board. This is in use more than you might imagine Drop a 4x12 cab on its face out of your vehicle and watch the speakers rip right out of the baffle board. There are many reasons to pick one wood over another, use one form of construction over another or one design over another. I am not a cabinet guy but I would bet that there are a lot of resources on the web that go into this subject in greater detail. In the case of a solid pine cab costing the same from the same cabinet maker as a quality ply cab of the same design from the same maker there will be a very big difference in tone. That is the primary reason some folks pick one type of construction material over the other. The design is also generally different depending on the material used.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2011 10:43:51 GMT -7
Thanks Myles. I sure wish my favorite amp companies would think a little more about weight when they spec their cabinets.
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Post by myles on Mar 28, 2011 16:16:12 GMT -7
Thanks Myles. I sure wish my favorite amp companies would think a little more about weight when they spec their cabinets. Depending on the company the priorities seem to be.... tone cost weight or cost to the maker ;D
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Post by Albert on Apr 5, 2011 16:45:13 GMT -7
Hi Myles,
what are the effects of using both sides of a 12ax7 on V1 position..I have an basketcase 66 BF Bandmaster that I can use as my test bed that I want to try it on is this worth trying? any feedbackback is welcome..
Albert
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Post by myles on Apr 5, 2011 17:49:03 GMT -7
Hi Myles, what are the effects of using both sides of a 12ax7 on V1 position..I have an basketcase 66 BF Bandmaster that I can use as my test bed that I want to try it on is this worth trying? any feedbackback is welcome.. Albert Albert, I am a bit confused here. Perhaps I do not understand the question. The blackface bandmaster - www.ampwares.com/schematics/bandmaster_ab763.pdf - uses both sides of V1. One triode is the gain stage and the other triode is the recovery stage for the tone stack.
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Post by Albert on Apr 5, 2011 18:25:13 GMT -7
Sorry You are correct about the Bandmaster schematic I should re-phrase my question ... Looking at the Ceritone Muchless Lightning schematic www.ceriatone.com/images/layoutPic/matchlessLayout/Lightningceriatone.jpgV1 looks like they are using both sides of the 12ax7 what exactly is accomplished by doing this ? Also looking more closely at my BF Bandmaster Schematic looks like if I bypass (with a switch or large value cap) the EQ I can get this but lose my EQ ability ...hope this makes a little more sense Thanks
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Post by myles on Apr 5, 2011 19:46:20 GMT -7
Sorry You are correct about the Bandmaster schematic I should re-phrase my question ... Looking at the Ceritone Muchless Lightning schematic www.ceriatone.com/images/layoutPic/matchlessLayout/Lightningceriatone.jpgV1 looks like they are using both sides of the 12ax7 what exactly is accomplished by doing this ? Also looking more closely at my BF Bandmaster Schematic looks like if I bypass (with a switch or large value cap) the EQ I can get this but lose my EQ ability ...hope this makes a little more sense Thanks More drive combining the two sides. On some Rivera amps he parallels the two sides for more clean headroom on the clean channel. Jumpering around the EQ (tone stack) on Fender BF amps gives them a much more agressive nature but you still keep both sides of the triode in use. You are just eliminating the resistors (pots) that reduce signal and alter phase. If you want to use one side of a triode get something with some current drive behind it such as a 12AY7. Better yet, use a pentode such as an EF86. My advice, leave your Fender alone. It is a great amp. Goof around with something else not a nice amp.
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Post by Albert on Apr 5, 2011 19:55:29 GMT -7
Sorry You are correct about the Bandmaster schematic I should re-phrase my question ... Looking at the Ceritone Muchless Lightning schematic www.ceriatone.com/images/layoutPic/matchlessLayout/Lightningceriatone.jpgV1 looks like they are using both sides of the 12ax7 what exactly is accomplished by doing this ? Also looking more closely at my BF Bandmaster Schematic looks like if I bypass (with a switch or large value cap) the EQ I can get this but lose my EQ ability ...hope this makes a little more sense Thanks More drive combining the two sides. On some Rivera amps he parallels the two sides for more clean headroom on the clean channel. Jumpering around the EQ (tone stack) on Fender BF amps gives them a much more agressive nature but you still keep both sides of the triode in use. You are just eliminating the resistors (pots) that reduce signal and alter phase. If you want to use one side of a triode get something with some current drive behind it such as a 12AY7. Better yet, use a pentode such as an EF86. My advice, leave your Fender alone. It is a great amp. Goof around with something else not a nice amp. As goes the saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it !" BTW I love my Z28 and that EF86 Also which NOS or otherwise 12ax7 would You recommend for the BF Bandmaster for great cleans
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2011 20:51:03 GMT -7
Myles,
When ordering phase inverters I go with a balanced PI per your recommendations. Recently I see matched triodes being offered. I am curious what are the benefits of matched triodes and where would they be best utilized? V1, tone stack, PI? I am certain the circuit design would have an influence on your answer. I think I recall you using matched and balanced triodes in some of your personal amps. Just curious what the purpose is?
Thanks, Doug
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Post by myles on Apr 6, 2011 9:57:07 GMT -7
More drive combining the two sides. On some Rivera amps he parallels the two sides for more clean headroom on the clean channel. Jumpering around the EQ (tone stack) on Fender BF amps gives them a much more agressive nature but you still keep both sides of the triode in use. You are just eliminating the resistors (pots) that reduce signal and alter phase. If you want to use one side of a triode get something with some current drive behind it such as a 12AY7. Better yet, use a pentode such as an EF86. My advice, leave your Fender alone. It is a great amp. Goof around with something else not a nice amp. As goes the saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it !" BTW I love my Z28 and that EF86 Also which NOS or otherwise 12ax7 would You recommend for the BF Bandmaster for great cleans 12AX7 pick is totally personal taste but for the original tone go with an original tube ... RCA or Sylvania NOS
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Post by myles on Apr 6, 2011 9:59:43 GMT -7
Myles, When ordering phase inverters I go with a balanced PI per your recommendations. Recently I see matched triodes being offered. I am curious what are the benefits of matched triodes and where would they be best utilized? V1, tone stack, PI? I am certain the circuit design would have an influence on your answer. I think I recall you using matched and balanced triodes in some of your personal amps. Just curious what the purpose is? Thanks, Doug Doug - there is a lot on matched phase inverters on my GAB website in this section - www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/pastinfo.html
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2011 10:29:59 GMT -7
Great info. I'll reread it. Was just hoping there might be a quick answer to what the difference between "matched" and "balanced" is?
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Post by Albert on Apr 6, 2011 15:05:47 GMT -7
As goes the saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it !" BTW I love my Z28 and that EF86 Also which NOS or otherwise 12ax7 would You recommend for the BF Bandmaster for great cleans 12AX7 pick is totally personal taste but for the original tone go with an original tube ... RCA or Sylvania NOS Thanks ..mine had 7025 tubes in it .... but I have some RCA12ax7's made in Yugoslavia (1970's ?) know any history on them ? Thanks again Albert
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Post by myles on Apr 6, 2011 15:55:57 GMT -7
Great info. I'll reread it. Was just hoping there might be a quick answer to what the difference between "matched" and "balanced" is? Matched and balanced are the same thing, just different terms.
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Post by myles on Apr 6, 2011 15:56:40 GMT -7
12AX7 pick is totally personal taste but for the original tone go with an original tube ... RCA or Sylvania NOS Thanks ..mine had 7025 tubes in it .... but I have some RCA12ax7's made in Yugoslavia (1970's ?) know any history on them ? Thanks again Albert Ei was the OEM for many tubes in the 70s including Telefunken.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2011 16:38:09 GMT -7
Matched and balanced are the same thing, just different terms. The reason I ask is some vendors are charging for both as if they are a separate thing. I'll have to check with them to see what they mean. Thank you!
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Post by myles on Apr 6, 2011 19:40:32 GMT -7
Matched and balanced are the same thing, just different terms. The reason I ask is some vendors are charging for both as if they are a separate thing. I'll have to check with them to see what they mean. Thank you! If there is a vendor charging for balanced triodes and then also charging for matched triodes in the same tube, please get a written explanation from them and post it here. I'd love to see the reply. Perhaps they are talking about matching two different 12AX7 tubes as an example, which would actually mean matching FOUR triodes. In any case I would love to hear the explanation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2011 21:42:09 GMT -7
If there is a vendor charging for balanced triodes and then also charging for matched triodes in the same tube, please get a written explanation from them and post it here. I'd love to see the reply. Perhaps they are talking about matching two different 12AX7 tubes as an example, which would actually mean matching FOUR triodes. In any case I would love to hear the explanation. Just got the email from Doug @ Doug's Tubes. This was his explanation: "We've added matching to our repertoire, that is equal gain measurements per side(100/100). Balanced triodes are equal plate current per triode." I see EuroTubes has similar offerings. I have not emailed him as to the meanings.
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Post by Ben on Apr 7, 2011 4:12:50 GMT -7
If there is a vendor charging for balanced triodes and then also charging for matched triodes in the same tube, please get a written explanation from them and post it here. I'd love to see the reply. Perhaps they are talking about matching two different 12AX7 tubes as an example, which would actually mean matching FOUR triodes. In any case I would love to hear the explanation. Just got the email from Doug @ Doug's Tubes. This was his explanation: "We've added matching to our repertoire, that is equal gain measurements per side(100/100). Balanced triodes are equal plate current per triode." I see EuroTubes has similar offerings. I have not emailed him as to the meanings. The TubeStore also offers Matched "sections" or Triodes, like Doug. Only mentionning it for my fellow Canucks (shipping is much quicker and cheaper) who didn't know about them. thetubestore.com/triodematching.htmlCheers Ben
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Post by Albert on Apr 7, 2011 8:30:41 GMT -7
Myles,
Is there a good website for deciphering the codes and etched dots on tubes perhaps on your website I figured it was time to learn to do this just for educations sake...
Albert
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Post by teleric on Apr 7, 2011 9:37:14 GMT -7
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Post by myles on Apr 7, 2011 10:37:27 GMT -7
If there is a vendor charging for balanced triodes and then also charging for matched triodes in the same tube, please get a written explanation from them and post it here. I'd love to see the reply. Perhaps they are talking about matching two different 12AX7 tubes as an example, which would actually mean matching FOUR triodes. In any case I would love to hear the explanation. Just got the email from Doug @ Doug's Tubes. This was his explanation: "We've added matching to our repertoire, that is equal gain measurements per side(100/100). Balanced triodes are equal plate current per triode." I see EuroTubes has similar offerings. I have not emailed him as to the meanings. I have been a friend of Doug Preston and Bob Pletka for years. Both those folks are great. That being said I will just say that from my own point of view one can come up with all sorts of ways to look at things in a static state. On the VTV tube tester (some info buried somewhere on my GAB website as I have serial number 0001) there is a scale marked "gain" which has little to do with actual true gain in circuit at design voltages. The VTV unit runs off a wall wart and cannot produce the design voltages as a side note. There is a second scale that "plays" one triode against the other and is an effective tool to determine the balance of the two triodes. Bottom line here I suppose, you could have two balanced tubes, one that reads 90/90 and the other than reads 100/100. Once again, these gain numbers are reference numbers off a piece of test gear that does NOT measure true gain but a tube at 100 is more gainy than a tube at 90. Side note ... most production tubes today have a hard time showing a true gain of over 85 (12AX7) yet some testers such as the VTV unit will show numbers of 100-110 and higher. Another side note; all these measurements are at static voltages at one point in the tube's operating envelope. Saying something is matched is a little misleading but still good in some respects, and surely better than tubes off the shelf with no testing. A good comparison would be if I set the idle on my Scion Xb with 105 horsepower at 700rpm and set the idle on a Ferrari BB512 at 700rpm and then stated the cars were matched. Maybe at idle rpm but that would be the end of the match. I match tubes via a vacuum tube curve tracer. One triode trace is laid on top of the other trace or one output tube trace is laid on top of the other vacuum tube trace. The entire operating range is swept and the traces have to lie on top of each other over the entire range. If you want to match two tubes or triodes for current, gain, rise time and all the other interacting factors and parameters that most tube testing equipment can not do then this is the proper way to do this. Hopefully this shed a little more light on the subject of "matching" vacuum tubes.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2011 14:39:25 GMT -7
I have been a friend of Doug Preston and Bob Pletka for years. Both those folks are great. That being said I will just say that from my own point of view one can come up with all sorts of ways to look at things in a static state. On the VTV tube tester (some info buried somewhere on my GAB website as I have serial number 0001) there is a scale marked "gain" which has little to do with actual true gain in circuit at design voltages. The VTV unit runs off a wall wart and cannot produce the design voltages as a side note. There is a second scale that "plays" one triode against the other and is an effective tool to determine the balance of the two triodes. Bottom line here I suppose, you could have two balanced tubes, one that reads 90/90 and the other than reads 100/100. Once again, these gain numbers are reference numbers off a piece of test gear that does NOT measure true gain but a tube at 100 is more gainy than a tube at 90. Side note ... most production tubes today have a hard time showing a true gain of over 85 (12AX7) yet some testers such as the VTV unit will show numbers of 100-110 and higher. Another side note; all these measurements are at static voltages at one point in the tube's operating envelope. Saying something is matched is a little misleading but still good in some respects, and surely better than tubes off the shelf with no testing. A good comparison would be if I set the idle on my Scion Xb with 105 horsepower at 700rpm and set the idle on a Ferrari BB512 at 700rpm and then stated the cars were matched. Maybe at idle rpm but that would be the end of the match. I match tubes via a vacuum tube curve tracer. One triode trace is laid on top of the other trace or one output tube trace is laid on top of the other vacuum tube trace. The entire operating range is swept and the traces have to lie on top of each other over the entire range. If you want to match two tubes or triodes for current, gain, rise time and all the other interacting factors and parameters that most tube testing equipment can not do then this is the proper way to do this. Hopefully this shed a little more light on the subject of "matching" vacuum tubes. Would you recommend one test (matched or balanced) over the other? Matched as offered by Doug's is only $2 extra dollars a tube. Balanced can be as high as $16 dollars a tube.
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Post by myles on Apr 7, 2011 16:44:16 GMT -7
I have been a friend of Doug Preston and Bob Pletka for years. Both those folks are great. That being said I will just say that from my own point of view one can come up with all sorts of ways to look at things in a static state. On the VTV tube tester (some info buried somewhere on my GAB website as I have serial number 0001) there is a scale marked "gain" which has little to do with actual true gain in circuit at design voltages. The VTV unit runs off a wall wart and cannot produce the design voltages as a side note. There is a second scale that "plays" one triode against the other and is an effective tool to determine the balance of the two triodes. Bottom line here I suppose, you could have two balanced tubes, one that reads 90/90 and the other than reads 100/100. Once again, these gain numbers are reference numbers off a piece of test gear that does NOT measure true gain but a tube at 100 is more gainy than a tube at 90. Side note ... most production tubes today have a hard time showing a true gain of over 85 (12AX7) yet some testers such as the VTV unit will show numbers of 100-110 and higher. Another side note; all these measurements are at static voltages at one point in the tube's operating envelope. Saying something is matched is a little misleading but still good in some respects, and surely better than tubes off the shelf with no testing. A good comparison would be if I set the idle on my Scion Xb with 105 horsepower at 700rpm and set the idle on a Ferrari BB512 at 700rpm and then stated the cars were matched. Maybe at idle rpm but that would be the end of the match. I match tubes via a vacuum tube curve tracer. One triode trace is laid on top of the other trace or one output tube trace is laid on top of the other vacuum tube trace. The entire operating range is swept and the traces have to lie on top of each other over the entire range. If you want to match two tubes or triodes for current, gain, rise time and all the other interacting factors and parameters that most tube testing equipment can not do then this is the proper way to do this. Hopefully this shed a little more light on the subject of "matching" vacuum tubes. Would you recommend one test (matched or balanced) over the other? Matched as offered by Doug's is only $2 extra dollars a tube. Balanced can be as high as $16 dollars a tube. For phase inverter use in amps with the most common long tail pair design I would go for balanced triodes and each triode drives half of the output tubes in a quet or quad. Matching that tube to any of the others has no benefit. Where matching tubes to each other would be of benefit would be in high end audio gear where one might want the stereo amp to be equal on both sides or monobloc amps to match. No reason to match tubes in a guitar amp that I can think of. Even if you wanted two guitar amps of the same make and model to match level this would be accomplished via the volume knob or amp placement. The +/- 20% range of most of the parts used would make matching tubes to match the amps performance, level and tone impossible by trying to match tubes alone.
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