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Post by johnnada on Aug 27, 2021 12:02:15 GMT -7
Hi everyone, new member and first post here. Been on the hunt for my first Dr Z the past few months and I received a Therapy yesterday. This was one of the first Z's I checked out in my search, because something that's Tweedy and rootsy fit my bill.
I've been working with it for a few hours today and yesterday. I tried different guitars, cabs and even cabsims. With and without pedals, a lot of different settings, the latter even to the extremes. Somehow I cannot cut through the bass that this amp produces, even when turning it almost all the way down and the mid and treble way up high. Especially with humbuckers when not on the bridge pickup everything gets muddy and wooly. Sounds like there's some sparkiness missing, like a blanket's covering something.
All the demo's I've heard and everything I read painted me a totally different picture. At this moment I'm about to send the amp back, but I cannot wrap my head around it. Is my taste or playing style so different? Or might there be an issue with the head?
For reference: I've been playing a lot of plexi style amps the past few years and I recently bought a Vox AC15HW1X, which work great for me. Recently I sold my Fender Hot Rod Deville 4x10" combo because it was also way too dark with the bass knob barely turned on. A week ago I played a Z-Wreck Jr combo which I liked, and I thought it's EQ was great.
What I'm looking for is a Dr Z head for session work, so recording as wel as gigging. Something that fills the gap in my current line up. The Marshalls have a sweet spot and do one thing great for me, but it's not for everything. The Vox also has it's own thing going. What I need is a head that can do clean to mean and is a bit more allround. I play from roots(rock), to Americana to classic rock. I figured the Therapy would be the perfect candidate to fill the spot, but I cannot get it to work for me.
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Post by Russell B on Aug 27, 2021 12:21:45 GMT -7
Although the Therapy is a darker toned amp, it can get pretty bright with the treble up. I wonder if it needs new tubes. Also, turn the mids down to around 9:00. That mid control is powerful.
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Post by Ridgeback on Aug 27, 2021 12:48:16 GMT -7
Welcome to the forum. While the Therapy is in the big bottle tweed or Brownface camp, I have not found it to be a particularly dark amp. By it's nature it is pretty mid focused, and as Russell B mentioned, the mid control plays a big part in the overall character of the amp. I run mine (5751 in V-1 and 6L6s) through a 2x12 with a C-Rex + Gold and it is not dark at all but everyone hears things differently. I hope you get it worked out but it just may not be the right Z for you. Good luck.
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Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Aug 27, 2021 12:51:18 GMT -7
Therapy is not a dark amp by nature. I suspect a retube is in order. I would highly recommend that anyone buying a used amp buy a set of new tubes at the same time regardless of whether you get the obligatory “fresh tubes throughout” statement in the advertisement. Remember, they are fragile to begin with, all made overseas now, and have a very limited lifespan.
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Post by johnnada on Aug 27, 2021 13:16:47 GMT -7
Thanks so far guys. I have turned the mid down as well, but still I couldn't get very far without turning the bass knob way down.
I got the amp new from a store, but on the back I can see it was made in 2015. So it might be something like the tubes. I noticed there was a lot of ticking noise when turning the amp off, even if I wait multiple minutes to turn it off when it's on standby.
Somehow I cannot imagine anything else as something being wrong with this particular amp, because my experience cannot be this drastically different. The issue is that I void the 30 day return warranty I have by changing the tubes. Besided, I don't believe I should be changing the tubes on a new head I just bought from a store in order to get it to sound right.
The amp came with a US power supply (I'm in Europe). I was even wondering if the amp is set for US voltages and is sounding this off due to this.
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Post by pcns on Aug 27, 2021 13:40:32 GMT -7
Was sold to you as a new amp? or is this a used amp? If the amp has been around d since 2015 it could easily be a tube problem. If you have a 30 day warranty take it back up to the store and have listen to or ask them what you should do.
The Therapy is wonderful sounding amp and is not too dark.
What speakers have you tried with it?
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Post by johnnada on Aug 27, 2021 13:46:59 GMT -7
Was sold to you as a new amp? or is this a used amp? If the amp has been around d since 2015 it could easily be a tube problem. If you have a 30 day warranty take it back up to the store and have listen to or ask them what you should do. The Therapy is wonderful sounding amp and is not too dark. What speakers have you tried with it? It was sold as new by an online store. It's harder to get Z's here in Europe, but a store at the other side of the country where I live had their last one for sale. They probably had this one sitting around for a while I guess. So I would have to send it back and see what they'll do. I tried it with two 2x12" open backs, one with Greenbacks and one with V30's. Also tried it with my Marshall 1960TV cab and dozens of cabsims with my Two Notes CAB-M. Had the issue with all of them. Is the ticking after turning it off normal with these amps?
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on Aug 27, 2021 14:05:30 GMT -7
My $0.02 is to start knob turning with the bass at zero. Get the treble and mids where you like them. Then start turning the bass up until you just hear it. I think that will help you dial in (but I too agree that a re-tube may be in order). I find the Therapy darker than some other Z’s, but you can dial in a lot of tones with this amp and it’s glorious.
Also remember you can use KT77 and EL34 power tubes as plug and play with the Therapy.
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Post by johnnada on Aug 27, 2021 14:34:18 GMT -7
My $0.02 is to start knob turning with the bass at zero. Get the treble and mids where you like them. Then start turning the bass up until you just hear it. I think that will help you dial in (but I too agree that a re-tube may be in order). I find the Therapy darker than some other Z’s, but you can dial in a lot of tones with this amp and it’s glorious. Also remember you can use KT77 and EL34 power tubes as plug and play with the Therapy. At every try with this amp today I ended op turning the bass knob all the way down and the treble and mid all the way up to get through. It's hard to describe. The head feels and sounds really saggy, spongy and bassy. Like I have to work my way through there somehow, like there is some spark in the amp that is not lit. Strange description maybe, but my experience is hard to put into words. It also seems to have gotten worse since I got it yesterday. At first I dug the amp a bit more and these problems were not as appearant. My first run with my SG and my pedalboard seemed rather nice. I don't mind a bit darker, my Vox and Marshalls are already pretty biting. But today I couldn't get any usefull sound out of it anymore. Though I have a sense there's something in there I'm not getting out of it.
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Post by pcns on Aug 27, 2021 14:59:24 GMT -7
Was sold to you as a new amp? or is this a used amp? If the amp has been around d since 2015 it could easily be a tube problem. If you have a 30 day warranty take it back up to the store and have listen to or ask them what you should do. The Therapy is wonderful sounding amp and is not too dark. What speakers have you tried with it? It was sold as new by an online store. It's harder to get Z's here in Europe, but a store at the other side of the country where I live had their last one for sale. They probably had this one sitting around for a while I guess. So I would have to send it back and see what they'll do. I tried it with two 2x12" open backs, one with Greenbacks and one with V30's. Also tried it with my Marshall 1960TV cab and dozens of cabsims with my Two Notes CAB-M. Had the issue with all of them. Is the ticking after turning it off normal with these amps? I have an open back cab with a pair of V30's and my Therapy sounds fantastic with that set up. I didn't care for mine with Greenbacks. I hope you can get this solved, it's a wonderful amp.
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Post by johnnada on Aug 27, 2021 15:10:12 GMT -7
It was sold as new by an online store. It's harder to get Z's here in Europe, but a store at the other side of the country where I live had their last one for sale. They probably had this one sitting around for a while I guess. So I would have to send it back and see what they'll do. I tried it with two 2x12" open backs, one with Greenbacks and one with V30's. Also tried it with my Marshall 1960TV cab and dozens of cabsims with my Two Notes CAB-M. Had the issue with all of them. Is the ticking after turning it off normal with these amps? I have an open back cab with a pair of V30's and my Therapy sounds fantastic with that set up. I didn't care for mine with Greenbacks. I hope you can get this solved, it's a wonderful amp. Yeah from everything I've heard it should be a great amp, and actually the thing that I was looking for. I really hope it's something that is an easy fix so I can have an 'aha!' moment. I'm really trying to figure out what's going on. Anyone else who can weigh in on this any further? Is the clicking sound after shutdown regular? Can it be a voltage issue? I'm grasping at straws here.
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Post by Ridgeback on Aug 27, 2021 15:41:34 GMT -7
I assume that the the back of the amp chassis would be clearly marked for 220v if it was built for European voltages. My bet would also be tubes if the voltages are correct but you may not want to take a chance. My recommendation would be to first, check to see if it is a 220v amp. If it is, I would pull the (EL34s?) and appropriate preamp tubes out of one of your other amps and plug them into the Therapy. No biasing necessary. You should not be risking not being able to return it just by pulling and then replacing the original tubes. In fact, the problem could be a poorly seated tube in the first place given the age of the amp. The amp is definitely not right and if it still doesn't sound right with a different set of tubes (also assuming it is a 220v amp), I'd return it in a second.
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Post by johnnada on Aug 27, 2021 16:13:32 GMT -7
I assume that the the back of the amp chassis would be clearly marked for 220v if it was built for European voltages. My bet would also be tubes if the voltages are correct but you may not want to take a chance. My recommendation would be to first, check to see if it is a 220v amp. If it is, I would pull the (EL34s?) and appropriate preamp tubes out of one of your other amps and plug them into the Therapy. No biasing necessary. You should not be risking not being able to return it just by pulling and then replacing the original tubes. In fact, the problem could be a poorly seated tube in the first place given the age of the amp. The amp is definitely not right and if it still doesn't sound right with a different set of tubes (also assuming it is a 220v amp), I'd return it in a second. Pretty stupid that it didn't come to my mind to just check the back of the amp for the power rating. I just did, and that part is correct. I'm just hoping I have the right tubes here to check that part. I've got nothing with 6L6 tubes anymore, but both Marshalls here have EL34'S ofcourse. I think I should still have 12AX7's though. I certainly don't have the correct tube for the rectifire. Do all the tubes in the Therapy have a fixed bias so I can swap them without issue? It's quite the dilemma. I really think it's just an issue and tubes would be an easy fix. If I send it back, I might regret missing out on an amp that could've been all I'm looking for with just a simple fix. But I also fear going down a rabbit hole with buying and replacing tubes without getting anywhere or losing the trust in my own ears and judgement. That's the downside of buying online. If you send it back, a lot of times they say there's nothing wrong with it. It's easier for them to try and sell it to someone else who doesn't complain about it and they don't have to put in the work and money to solve a problem. Unfortunately it's really difficult to get a Dr Z where I'm living.
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Post by Ridgeback on Aug 27, 2021 16:34:10 GMT -7
Plug and play for power and preamp tubes. Biasing is only relevant to the power tubes and rectifier in fixed bias amps but the Therapy is cathode biased and you can swap octal based power tubes all you want. Several folks here actually prefer the EL34s in the Therapy. The rectifier is unlikely to be your problem but you might want to pull and re-seat it anyway while you are pulling the other tubes in case there is dirt or oxidation on the pins. Good luck.
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Post by premiumplus (Dave) on Aug 27, 2021 16:40:51 GMT -7
My money is on a bad tube. Good luck, it's a great amp.
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Post by purpletele on Aug 27, 2021 16:52:45 GMT -7
Do all the tubes in the Therapy have a fixed bias so I can swap them without issue? I too had a Therapy for a couple of years and that amp was really easy to get a nice tone, so you definitely have some wrinkle. The Therapy is Cathode Biased, which translates to 'No need to worry about resetting the bias.' You can change the power tubes types within the limits that Z recommends, and you do not need to rest the bias. The Pre-Amp tubes do not need to be biased and you can change those at free will, Unless determinism has precluded you from doing so, thank you Ayn Rand. A Fixed Bias amp, like your Marshalls need to be adjusted when you change the power tubes. It's really surprising that any tubes work after shipping an amp. That amp, just like the rest of the portfolio is a sleeper and a keeper. Keep us posted, I hoping you can rectify the situation with a tube replacement. Brian V
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Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Aug 27, 2021 17:16:01 GMT -7
I run EL34s in my Therapy and have since I got it.
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Post by johnnada on Aug 27, 2021 17:43:00 GMT -7
I run EL34s in my Therapy and have since I got it. Ok, it's good to hear I can use EL34's in the amp, because there are plenty of those around in this house to check this issue. My guess would be that I'll just start with the power tubes and see if that makes a difference, before replacing everything at once?
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Post by Chilly Gibbons (Todd T.) on Aug 27, 2021 18:19:29 GMT -7
Yes, both power tubes at once, then preamps one at a time. You’ll find the culprit
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Post by johnnada on Aug 28, 2021 6:09:11 GMT -7
Ok, I did the tube testing. Everything besides the rectifier tube ofcourse. I used the tubes out of my wife's Marshall Origin 50w head. The only thing that made some difference to my ear and feel was swapping the V1 preamp tube. Still I'm not sure if it's completely normal. I recorded everything I did:
I used my Gibson SG with '61 pickups in the middle position, with all knobs on 10 for all clips. It runs from the guitar through a TC HOF Mini reverb into the heads. The heads are directly connected to a Two Notes CAB-M, where I used an Orange 2x12" with V30 speakers, based on the cab which I have in my studio, for cab simulation. Everything is the same at every clip, only thing changing are the tubes. I wrote down in the clip what changes at each point.
Please help me out guys, I don't know anymore.
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Post by purpletele on Aug 28, 2021 6:31:16 GMT -7
Ok, I did the tube testing. Everything besides the rectifier tube ofcourse. I used the tubes out of my wife's Marshall Origin 50w head. The only thing that made some difference to my ear and feel was swapping the V1 preamp tube. Still I'm not sure if it's completely normal. I recorded everything I did: I used my Gibson SG with '61 pickups in the middle position, with all knobs on 10 for all clips. It runs from the guitar through a TC HOF Mini reverb into the heads. The heads are directly connected to a Two Notes CAB-M, where I used an Orange 2x12" with V30 speakers, based on the cab which I have in my studio, for cab simulation. Everything is the same at every clip, only thing changing are the tubes. I wrote down in the clip what changes at each point. Please help me out guys, I don't know anymore. johnnada, That was an informative video, unfortunately the tone of the Therapy has an issue, at least to my ears. I can't imagine what the issue might be at this point, but someone might be able to make a guess. We were all hoping you had a tube issue.
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Post by johnnada on Aug 28, 2021 6:38:42 GMT -7
Ok, I did the tube testing. Everything besides the rectifier tube ofcourse. I used the tubes out of my wife's Marshall Origin 50w head. The only thing that made some difference to my ear and feel was swapping the V1 preamp tube. Still I'm not sure if it's completely normal. I recorded everything I did: I used my Gibson SG with '61 pickups in the middle position, with all knobs on 10 for all clips. It runs from the guitar through a TC HOF Mini reverb into the heads. The heads are directly connected to a Two Notes CAB-M, where I used an Orange 2x12" with V30 speakers, based on the cab which I have in my studio, for cab simulation. Everything is the same at every clip, only thing changing are the tubes. I wrote down in the clip what changes at each point. Please help me out guys, I don't know anymore. johnnada, That was an informative video, unfortunately the tone of the Therapy has an issue, at least to my ears. I can't imagine what the issue might be at this point, but someone might be able to make a guess. We were all hoping you had a tube issue. It could still be a tube issue ofcourse, since the only one I didn't swap was the rectifier tube. I just read some things where people had similar issues due to a bad rectifier tube. That would also explain the big volume difference. I know the Origin is a 50w head and the Therapy is 35w, bit I don't think the difference should be this big.
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Post by Ridgeback on Aug 28, 2021 6:42:23 GMT -7
My computer speakers aren't great but the Therapy sounds "unwell". I would return it while you can. The tube changes should have made a noticeable difference and, like you, I didn't hear much change. I was already suspicious of a six year old amp being sold as new. It's possibly been returned before? Just my 2 cents. Good luck.
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Post by johnnada on Aug 28, 2021 7:03:39 GMT -7
My computer speakers aren't great but the Therapy sounds "unwell". I would return it while you can. The tube changes should have made a noticeable difference and, like you, I didn't hear much change. I was already suspicious of a six year old amp being sold as new. It's possibly been returned before? Just my 2 cents. Good luck. Well, I'm pretty sure of one thing: the back had never been opened. I almost couldn't get the back off of the head to reach the tubes, so I can hardly imagine tubes have ever been changed. But still: couldn't it be the rectifier tube? That's the one thing left I could try and it would be worth the 20 bucks to me to see if this reanimates the amp. If I send it back there's a chance they can or will not fix it. Ofcourse I wouldn't be stuck with an amp that's likely broken, but if I can fix it I probably have the amp I was looking for.
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Post by DRZ on Aug 28, 2021 7:20:34 GMT -7
John excellent demo . I was a bit bewildered by your earlier posts , but that demo sure is worth a thousand words. Yes you can hear the slight changes as you swapped tubes , but there is an underlying issue with that amp. One that can't be identified without having it on the bench . Trust me John if you lived stateside and could easily send it to me I would have that amp singing like it was designed to do. But that is not the case , and trying to find a repairman were you are to solve its problem would be an expensive, time consuming shot in the dark. My best advice is to return the amp, send along the beginning of your clip which has the Marshall as reference then the stock Therapy that is a shocking comparison and will validate your return. Sorry it didn't work out but a 6 year old amp sold as new by a non-authorized Z Amp dealer surely has a story.
DR.Z
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Post by DRZ on Aug 28, 2021 7:30:42 GMT -7
John an addendum to my earlier post. I went to The Gear Page forum and see you posted your clip, I didn't really care for that. You asked the experts here on the Z Talk Forum for advice , from players that own Therapy's ones who could diagnose the problem and received honest help. You post on TGP were no one can honestly help you, all it does is show a " NEW " Z amp that sounds like crap. Not the best form IMHO.
DR.Z
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Post by johnnada on Aug 28, 2021 8:24:43 GMT -7
John an addendum to my earlier post. I went to The Gear Page forum and see you posted your clip, I didn't really care for that. You asked the experts here on the Z Talk Forum for advice , from players that own Therapy's ones who could diagnose the problem and received honest help. You post on TGP were no one can honestly help you, all it does is show a " NEW " Z amp that sounds like crap. Not the best form IMHO. DR.Z I'm very sorry Dr. Z, that was totally not my intention. I deleted the latest posts on TGP right away, as soon as I read your second post here. I was just grasping at straws, trying to find input from anyone who can help. So far you and people affiliated with your company have been extremely helpful and I'm a big fan of your amps, so I never wanted to drag your name or products through the mud over there!
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Post by johnnada on Aug 28, 2021 8:36:47 GMT -7
John excellent demo . I was a bit bewildered by your earlier posts , but that demo sure is worth a thousand words. Yes you can hear the slight changes as you swapped tubes , but there is an underlying issue with that amp. One that can't be identified without having it on the bench . Trust me John if you lived stateside and could easily send it to me I would have that amp singing like it was designed to do. But that is not the case , and trying to find a repairman were you are to solve its problem would be an expensive, time consuming shot in the dark. My best advice is to return the amp, send along the beginning of your clip which has the Marshall as reference then the stock Therapy that is a shocking comparison and will validate your return. Sorry it didn't work out but a 6 year old amp sold as new by a non-authorized Z Amp dealer surely has a story. DR.Z So to react to your original post, after apologizing for the TGP thing. I'm very thankful for your response and even though it's disappointing to have confirmation that the store sold me an amp with issues, I'm glad that there's nothing wrong with my judgement. Since yesterday I really starting doubting my own judgement.
I will contact the store and see what they can do. Their is a 30 day return policy, so even without the issue they should take the head back. The head was bought from one of your listed dealers. Do you think they can have the head repaired and if so, do you advice I go along with his? Because a Dr. Z amp that works and sounds like it should, would be better than having to start over. Ofcourse I don't know what the policy is for the European dealers selling your amps.
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Post by DRZ on Aug 28, 2021 8:47:11 GMT -7
Thanks for taking down TGP post. Not trying to be too sensitive about it but this is a dog eat dog industry.
I guess my next question is who is this dealer ? All my export dealers are 100% responsible to supply satisfactory warrantee service on all Z products by written agreement.
Z
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Post by johnnada on Aug 28, 2021 8:53:55 GMT -7
Thanks for taking down TGP post. Not trying to be too sensitive about it but this is a dog eat dog industry. I guess my next question is who is this dealer ? All my export dealers are 100% responsible to supply satisfactory warrantee service on all Z products by written agreement. Z Would it be better if I send you a personal message about this? Because I totally get the concern you also displayed about my TGP post and I don't want to drag out anything in public that might be bad for your company or bad mouth EU dealers selling your amps. I'm just a guitar player and producer, having three productions lined up to record the upcoming months, desperately trying to get my hands on one of your lovely amps. Unfortunately I'm having a bit of bad luck so far.
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