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Post by oldgoat on Mar 27, 2006 22:20:31 GMT -7
guitargeorge, thanks for this clarification
That's not what I'm hearing. Mine is a sizzling/rattling sound coming through the speakers down the neck. In the studio, I thought the drummer had left the snare drum on and at home thought it was a metal cabinet rattling. So I'll start checking the screws, bolts and tube retainers.
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Post by marcusano on Mar 30, 2006 17:34:46 GMT -7
guitargeorge, thanks for this clarification That's not what I'm hearing. Mine is a sizzling/rattling sound coming through the speakers down the neck. In the studio, I thought the drummer had left the snare drum on and at home thought it was a metal cabinet rattling. So I'll start checking the screws, bolts and tube retainers. Oldgoat, I think you are not alone. I've been lurking for a while and keep thinking I'd post when I finally figure this problem out - but that's not happening. I've had my Maz Jr. NR for a couple of months and have had the hardest time even describing the problem. I think the "snare" description is pretty good - I've also described it as paper rattling. It happens when there's a good deal of volume and especially apparent using the bridge pickup when there are double stops and pedal steel bends on the first three strings fairly high up the neck. If I REALLY crank it up, the problem is not as bad as the rattling noise gets drowned out. My mid-90's Fender Blues Deluxe has a similar problem - it's actually worse than the Jr. Eventually, I'll visit some friends that have a Jr. and see if their's yield similar results; until then, I'm happy with the tone of the amp and will tolerate the noise.
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Post by guitargeorge on Mar 31, 2006 5:15:27 GMT -7
There was a discussion over at the Fender Forum about some folks getting a rattling, vibration sound from their grillecloth, where the grillecloth is folded over the baffleboard and tucked into the amp cabinet. One guy said he solved the problem by removing the baffle board and reinstalling it with some silicone sealer around the perimeter of the opening. Also check your transformer mount bolts, the doc puts big washers on them so when the bolts come loose they will "sizzle" like a cymbal, kind of like the chirpers on the brakes of your car.
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Post by oldgoat on Mar 31, 2006 11:59:25 GMT -7
Well went through everything the other day. Swapped tubes, tightened all bolts, different guitars (strat, les paul) checked baffle board. If it could rattle or alter the tone, I looked at it. I did test with an external speaker which made the sizzle go away. But when I tested with an amp that I just finished building 2 weeks ago www.backbeatuk.com/ampkit/ampkit.htm I got the same sound on the same frets! Didn't think I was playing THAT loud. (Volume at 10 o'clock, Master at 2 o'clock is when it starts to happen) Maybe I need to move to a head and speaker cab rig?
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Post by seaking on Apr 1, 2006 6:52:48 GMT -7
Some interesting discussion happening. Hope to get my Maz Jr NR next week and will definitely be bending some strings when it comes. From what I've read, I wouldn't be too surprised to hear an odd sound or two. I've only ever owned one tube amp before which still gets used daily, Peavey C30. Although a great value and a respectable sound, it frequently produces unwanted noises. Having little tube experience, I'm going to tackle this from a perspective I am acquainted with...Vibration Analysis. Everything that contains mass, on this planet and beyond whether constructed by man or nature, possesses an inherent, natural frequency. Frequency is the speed in which something vibrates when disturbed. Natural frequencies are very destructive when taken to excess. That’s why engineers design widgets to operate at frequencies other than the material's own natural frequencies. An excellent example of frequencies gone wrong: There was a large suspension bridge destroyed shortly after opening, (back in the fifties or sixties in Tacoma Washington I believe) It turns out the geology of that area effected wind speed/intensity such that it set off harmonic vibrations at the bridges inherent natural frequency. I saw the old black and white film footage of this bridge destroying itself, nasty That’s an extreme example. Something less extreme; there’s a pellet stove in the basement which I love on those cold days of winter. When I first got it, I noticed that at times it would have an annoying vibration/rattle, it seemed to come and go at will. Many hours of looking around and check torquing everything possible had no affect. Then I noticed that the vibration only occurred with the blower's speed was selected to 3. Yes you guessed it; at 3 the blower's speed/frequency was at or very close to natural. The stove is never set on three anymore, higher or lower but not 3. Should make for a longer life, for both the blower and me. Here's my thesis. At times the guitar thingy creates a frequency that is too close to natural with something in the amp thingy. But I could be out to lunch Bill
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Post by humphreyaudio on Apr 3, 2006 5:34:27 GMT -7
Last night I was playing my Maz 18 jr. and I noticed when doing double stops and double bends that there was a strange ring modulator sound happening behind the notes. If I bend up the overtone pitch goes down. Anyone else experience this? I'd try hooking it to a speaker cab seperated from it. It may very well be a frquency thing as previuosly mentioned. Mark Humphrey Humphrey Audio
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Post by Strato on Apr 3, 2006 14:30:12 GMT -7
My Head and cab does the same thing. Also my head with a different cab does the same thing.
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Post by seaking on Apr 4, 2006 12:59:49 GMT -7
Found something by billyguitar on "ghost note" thread started by sonicblue. Unfortunately i haven't figured out linking yet so opted for copy paste. Has me thinking that much of the expressed concern, as mentioned above, is how the Doc expressed it "normal". "Like guitarman1 says this is an amp thing, not a guitar thing. There are three different sounds that seem similar but are different: 1) Cone Cry or edge yowl. This happens typically when you play a note, usually higher than the 12th fret on the high E string. You'll hear a weird screaming, discordant sound at the same time as you play the note, especially if you bend or vibrato the note. The louder you play the more you'll notice it. Almost all Celestions do it but some other speakers do it too. For instance, I have a 1950 Fender Pro amp with a field coil (electromagnet) Jensen 15" speaker. It has a super thin cone and it does it real bad. 2) Ghost note. This is a following tone that you hear that is lower in level and lower in pitch than the note you're playing. Usually blamed on inadequate filtering in the power supply. I, myself, don't really know what causes it. 3) The third effect is what's heard on the Maz 38 with the preamp cranked. A lot of amps do this and is considered normal. I remember hearing that on cranked amps 30 years ago. What I'm talking about is when you hold one note on one string and bend another at the same time, most obvious on high notes. What you hear is a note lower in pitch and level than the notes you're playing and seem to go in the opposite direction. As you bend up you'll hear this "difference" note going down. Amps with nice big output transformers seem to do it the most. Turn the bass down and it'll reduce the effect. It's a normal thing to overdriven amps. This help? " « Last Edit: Mar 31, 2006, 11:49am by billyguitar » Link to Post - Back to Top Logged Guitarman 1 also writes on the same thread: "Hi Sonic. I'll try to explain it in simple, basic terms. I'm sure there is a detailed explanation of the electro/mechanical physics involved, but I'll let somebody else tackle that. A ghost not is when you play a note on an electric guitar through an amp and you hear your note plus additional notes or overtones simultaneously. They generally aren't as loud as the fundamental note. My Maz 38 does this on certain notes and especially when bending double stops on the b & g strings. This can be caused by the amp itself, and also by the cone of a speaker. Thinner British type cones are infamous for this. That's my short explanation. " Any Comments ?
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Post by bnwhtlw on Apr 4, 2006 21:55:44 GMT -7
Somehow I managed to have both of the issues spoken of in this thread.
Though my ghost note issue goes away when I push up on both of the power tubes. One of my retainer clips is loose. So maybe its the same maybe its not.
I have a Vibroking as well and it is doing the "snare" sound. I call it a searing thing. The local Fender repair tech still doesnt know what it is. He showed me a flat pot on the wave form when he hooked it to a dummy load, with a osiliscope (sp) and a signal generator.
Its the worst with my tele on the bridge.
Anyway.
I notice on the MAZ that when I hit the low E open it sounds like a doubled tone. Not chorusy. Just like two guitars. My "ringing" sound, sound just like a tube thats gone microphonic. So that may be all my problem is.
I guess there is no point to my post other than, I feel your pain with these damn quirky amps.
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Post by oldgoat on Apr 7, 2006 21:58:20 GMT -7
Finally got rid of the "sizzle" sound in my Maz Jr! Took it back to the dealer, and with the owner, sales manager and a tech that was working on another amp found the problem. It seems that my Maz Jr doesn't like a Mullard ax7 in V1. And it was not a bad tube! We tried 3 of them and all with the same sound when I played a "A" note! So started swapping tubes, even found out that a Sylvania was even more dramatic, where the sizzle sound was more up front and started sooner when I played the note. Ended up with a Amperex Bugle Boy that sounds tremendous.
Now how I missed this when I was swapping tubes to figure this out on my own I have no clue. Maybe I was using a bad JJ ax7 or it could have been that I was doing this at 3 AM. I'm just glad I can play all over the fretboard again.
And to emphasize, these were not bad tubes, they just were not happy in my Maz Jr. So someone else may not have an issue with what is a wonderful sounding tube. After all I have to remember that these are hand built amps. And I want that individual character inherent from this. So the fact that I have to be careful of what tube I put in V1 is such a small thing next to the amazing sound from this amp.
Thanks to everyone for your support and suggestions!
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Post by seaking on Apr 8, 2006 3:29:59 GMT -7
Hey Oldgoat, congrats on getting to the root of the sizzle issue. That's the beauty of this form. members sharing their experiences so we can all learn about our amps and enjoy them more. Karma for sharing your solution to an otherwise annoying problem. BTW still waiting for my 1X12, star....ting to g..e..t tu....ff n....o.....w
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Post by guitargeorge on Apr 26, 2006 4:52:24 GMT -7
Last night I installed a Mullard 12AX7 in my V1 in place of the JJ ECC83s and it seemed to shift the note where the ghost noting occurs, it is still doing it but on another note and a little less, I plan to try some other tubes tonight, I'll keep everybody posted. I am using a stratoid (Tokai TST-62) and with this amp it sounds really good, now if I can solve the "ghost note, background noise" problem this combo will rock.
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Post by mazmaster on Apr 26, 2006 8:30:57 GMT -7
Interesting thread. I don't think I've ever really noticed this particular issue on my Maz 18 NR head and Jenkins Highway 61 2x12 cab w/ G12H-30s. But, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist on mine too. However, I don't crank the amp for distortion. It's set on the edge of breakup and then whacked with various pedals for various levels of gain and volume. This usage may cover up some of the things people are noticing.
However, I do occasionally hear other odd noises on all my amps (from the Maz 18 to the Bad Cat to the Flexi to the Accomplice) and have actually grown used to them as "normal" for these particular tube amps...just like the doc says about your issue. From the small amount of investigation I've done, I believe it's caused by several things - power supply filtering and mechanical vibration (i.e. resonance).
Filtering: Almost like doping on a speaker cone, power supply filtering, when not used in large amounts (i.e. large capacitance values) it can result in ghost notes when the power supply is really pushed or pushed in certain ways. However, increasing capacitance also makes the amp seem stiff, with less air and openness. Just like doping a cone, there's a tradeoff to be made. Damp/dope the **** out it and end up with a dead thud when you hit a note. Don't use any at all (or very little) and end up with ghost notes (low filtering) or cone cry (no dope). It's all physics. The key is finding a happy medium. So, I've found that some of the best sounding amps (overall) will naturally and normally make faint ghost notes under certain conditions. The key is just ignoring them and/or learning how to moderate them with your playing technique. After all, a good amp is an instrument and you need to learn how to "play it".
Vibration: All of my amps make certain mechanical vibrations under certain conditions and each one is a bit different. Just like the filtering issue, it's normal. It happens inside tubes, in their mounting hardware, inside the amp chassis, the cab, the stand, the room, etc. You can obviously take steps to minimize it and prevent certain resonances (like replacing microphonic tubes), but they'll never go completely away. So, I just ignore them.
Once you've done all you can to eliminate truly microphonic tubes and loose parts, the only thing left to do is ignore the sounds and/or modify your technique so as to "play" the amp like an instrument. But, in my experience, NONE of this stuff can ever be heard in a band context anyways! So, I don't think it ultimately that big an issue.
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Post by mazmaster on Apr 26, 2006 8:32:14 GMT -7
Finally got rid of the "sizzle" sound in my Maz Jr! Took it back to the dealer, and with the owner, sales manager and a tech that was working on another amp found the problem. It seems that my Maz Jr doesn't like a Mullard ax7 in V1. And it was not a bad tube! We tried 3 of them and all with the same sound when I played a "A" note! So started swapping tubes, even found out that a Sylvania was even more dramatic, where the sizzle sound was more up front and started sooner when I played the note. Ended up with a Amperex Bugle Boy that sounds tremendous. Now how I missed this when I was swapping tubes to figure this out on my own I have no clue. Maybe I was using a bad JJ ax7 or it could have been that I was doing this at 3 AM. I'm just glad I can play all over the fretboard again. And to emphasize, these were not bad tubes, they just were not happy in my Maz Jr. So someone else may not have an issue with what is a wonderful sounding tube. After all I have to remember that these are hand built amps. And I want that individual character inherent from this. So the fact that I have to be careful of what tube I put in V1 is such a small thing next to the amazing sound from this amp. Thanks to everyone for your support and suggestions! Try the Tung Sol 12AX7.
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