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Post by cabkab on Jun 10, 2019 5:57:33 GMT -7
Hi guys,
When I was shopping for my Z-Plus I came across a couple of Maz 8 models that had the Z lite attenuator inside the back of the cabinet. I have been pretty happy with the tone of my Z-Plus so far but am I missing out on any better tones by not having the power tube breakup? I always pretty much play at home with the master volume barely cracked open and the amp on the edge of breakup. I also mic the amp into my wall mounted studio monitor system for more three dimensional sound.
Can I get even better tone by combining the MV with a little attenuation?
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on Jun 10, 2019 7:58:48 GMT -7
My $0.02:
If you’re running the master volume wide open already without volume issues in the house or with the neighbors, I don’t think you’ll get anything out of an attenuator. I run my ZPlus at 7w at home most of the time (15w reserved for jams and gigs), and tend to vary the V and MV getting different tones. When I dime the MV, it’s volume is manageable depending on where the V goes.
I have Brakelites on my Z28 and Therapy because those need it when you push the output tubes (even though the Therapy MV is great).
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Post by cabkab on Jun 12, 2019 5:00:52 GMT -7
My $0.02: If you’re running the master volume wide open already without volume issues in the house or with the neighbors, I don’t think you’ll get anything out of an attenuator. I run my ZPlus at 7w at home most of the time (15w reserved for jams and gigs), and tend to vary the V and MV getting different tones. When I dime the MV, it’s volume is manageable depending on where the V goes. I have Brakelites on my Z28 and Therapy because those need it when you push the output tubes (even though the Therapy MV is great). But I am NOT running the master volume wide open, only barely cracked open most of the time.
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on Jun 12, 2019 5:48:41 GMT -7
sorry, misread your post (didn't see the "barely"). Volume is a hard and subjective issue to consider in a forum -- what's loud to you may not be loud to me, and vice versa. I have my ZPlus in an 8x14 music room off the kitchen. I tend to run it with V at 10-12 (clock) and MV anywhere from 9-2 o'clock. At the 7w setting this is very do-able, but not bedroom level. I've got the Celestion Blue in the amp, and I'm also running a 1x12 extension with Z12 speaker (so the amp is in a 2x12 situation). My wife can watch TV in the den about 15-20 feet away from that room (with the door closed) without a problem. You might try putting your V and MV where you'd like them, then adjust the tone and cut controls to see if you can lower apparent volume that way as well. And, of course, be sure you're in 7w mode.
If I were going to try an attenuator on the ZPlus, I'd check the BST section here or Reverb for a used Dr Z Brakelite, or look at the Weber Mass units - they have a 50w unit that would work. They work very well, have "reactive load" design (so the amp reacts like it's connected to a speaker) and built quite well. I have and have used both Weber and Brakelite units. The Weber's are less expensive new than a new Brakelite, but there are usually some used Brakelites up for sale if you're patient.
There are thousands of thread on whether and how attenuators affect tone. My $0.02 is that as you increase the level of attenuation (making the amp quieter), you do lose some high end. Most of the effect I hear is the absence of driving the speaker hard. I find attenuators a good tradeoff to get power tube distortion/compression and manageable volume.
Edited to add: my preference is to run the MV higher and use the V to put me where I want (I know that’s a bit backwards from standard logic). I like pushing the power tubes more than the preamp tubes.
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Post by buckeye on Jun 12, 2019 6:15:54 GMT -7
Here is my 2 cents; For gigging I don't think an attenuator will improve the tone of the Plus especially with the half power option available. For home use it might be beneficial for you if you are trying to keep the volume level down considering you are miking it as well. I used to have a Brakelite for my Maz that I no longer have and tried it with my Plus but didn't gel with it. As Big Kahuna stated above it can cut some of the highs. If you are trying to achieve overdrive tones at a manageable level I suggest you try turning the V down to say 9 o clock and the MV to about 1sh and engage an OD pedal.
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Post by cabkab on Jun 12, 2019 6:42:54 GMT -7
So currently I am not getting any power tube breakup with the MV down so low. If I had the attenuator I would use some attenuation in combination with the MV to try to balance the breakup a little more between both preamp and power amp. I would try not to attenuate too much. I wonder if it would improve the tone of my current edge of breakup tones. Or am I not missing out on anything from the power tube breakup at lower volumes?
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on Jun 12, 2019 7:04:45 GMT -7
I don’t think anyone can really answer the question because it’s a subjective thing. If it were me, I’d try an attenuator just to see how it goes.
There are some Brakelites for around $150 on Reverb and eBay, and the Weber 50w is $136 new (haven’t look to see if there are used ones out there). There are other brands as well.
If you try one and don’t like it, you can probably sell it for 70% or so of what you paid for it. So think of it as a ~$50 experiment on your home tone.
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on Jun 14, 2019 5:53:54 GMT -7
By way of update - I was playing the ZPlus last night and measure the output in dB from my phone app.
MV dimed, V at 10ish, T at 10, M at 3, B at 9, Cut at 12.
Running the Blue plus the Z12 in an extension cab.
Mexi Strat with EMG Gilmours.
85db at about 8 feet, spiking to 95ish when I dug in on the strings.
From my music room with the door closed, this is about the sound of a muffled garbage disposal in the den - definitely not bedroom level, but not disruptive. In the same room this would be loud.
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Post by doctorice on Jun 14, 2019 13:41:45 GMT -7
This may seem a little backward, but I have an attenuator in my MAZ 8 and don't feel like I need one in my Z-Plus. Why? Because the MAZ 8 is almost always played at home and not used in a band setting. I try to keep the volume low to avoid ear fatigue and further damage to my hearing. It's in a bedroom. The Z-Plus, in contrast, gets gigged and is in a larger space at home. It feels to me like the masters on the respective amps behave differently, perhaps due to the different circuitry involved, even though both are single-ended designs.
I tend to run volume pretty high on both amps and control a lot from the guitar, fwiw.
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Post by vanceen on Jun 14, 2019 20:06:08 GMT -7
I've been really enjoying cranking the MV up on my Z-Plus lately, and backing the Volume off from dimed (its usual spot) It's a meatier tone. But it's very loud up close, even on half power. I'll try my Brake-Lite tomorrow.
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Post by pcns on Jun 15, 2019 6:43:23 GMT -7
my vote is to try it and see if you like it. If you buy a used Brake lite you will be able resell if it doesnt do what you want. Todd
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Post by John on Jun 16, 2019 7:22:44 GMT -7
Buy a used braklite....if you don't like it, you can sell it for what you paid for it.
Secondarily, this may not be what you want to hear:
It sounds like the volume level you're talking about is close to a person's speaking voice. (or slightly louder singing volume) If you are having to play THAT quiet, you might consider a solid state modeling amp. I just don't see you getting much in the way of tube dynamics at such a squashed level.
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