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Post by rossman on Jun 5, 2019 21:01:30 GMT -7
Hello everyone;
I recently purchased a used Z-Plus on Reverb. It is a 2018 model. To me, it just doesn't have the volume it should have. I took the tubes to a friend of mine who owns a local repair shop. He is an authorized Fender, Marshall, Vox and other brand amplifier repair center so he knows what he is doing. The tubes checked out good except for V5, so I replaced it.
I also own a 2011 MAZ 18 NR and a 2016 Carmen Ghia. If the volume and / or master volume on each amp was at 12 noon and I were to numerically describe the volume, I would say the MAZ volume is a 10, the Ghia is an 8 and the Z-Plus a 5. Is this what I should expect with the Z-Plus? I did not have an opportunity to play a Z-Plus but was very interested in it and just pulled the trigger.
Thoughts?
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Post by dcarver on Jun 5, 2019 22:24:54 GMT -7
Hi Rossman, welcome to the forum. I don't have a Z-Plus, but I'd like to get one someday. So I'm interested in what is causing the problem. All things being equal, the Z-Plus shouldn't be half as loud as the Maz 18.
This is kind of a dumb question, but do you have it in 1/2 power mode ?
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Post by rossman on Jun 6, 2019 2:55:00 GMT -7
Hi Rossman, welcome to the forum. I don't have a Z-Plus, but I'd like to get one someday. So I'm interested in what is causing the problem. All things being equal, the Z-Plus shouldn't be half as loud as the Maz 18. This is kind of a dumb question, but do you have it in 1/2 power mode ? No, volume with half power volume drops like it should. I do realize that the MAZ and Ghia are 18 watts and louder verses the 15 watts of the Z-Plus, but it is not as loud as I thought it would be. Maybe I should ship it back to the Doc for a look see? I wonder if it could it be one of the transformers?
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Post by shiner51 on Jun 6, 2019 4:34:56 GMT -7
I have a Zplus, a Maz 18 Combo,and a Z-Lux. The Z plus is definitely not as loud as the other two. The Maz actually seems to be as loud as the Z Lux, probably because of the enhanced midrange of the Maz. I also have a Princeton Blackface Reissue and would estimate the Princeton and the Z-plus to be similar in volume. Neither will keep up with a loud drummer without being mic'd, but both amps have a really nice sweet spot that is hard to get with a higher powered amp at lower volume levels. The Z Plus has replaced my Princeton at smaller venues and at practice and gets used as much as my other two Z amps.
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on Jun 6, 2019 4:36:27 GMT -7
My ZPlus is plenty loud. It sits alongside a Therapy and Z28, and while it’s not as loud as those, it ain’t dainty. For most of my playing they are set to be equivalently loud.
I’d go through Doc’s troubleshooting guide first.
Then, and I know you’re amp tech friend said the tubes all checked out, but as always I’d try new tubes before I’d start looking for more complex problems.
The actual volume difference between a 15 and 18 watt amp would be minimal, but the perception of “loudness” will depend on tone, distortion, speaker, etc. etc.
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Post by doctorice on Jun 6, 2019 12:26:36 GMT -7
What speakers are in your various amps?
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Post by rossman on Jun 6, 2019 16:09:58 GMT -7
The Z-Plus came with the standard Z speaker and I have swapped a Celestion Blue in and out. No volume difference between those speakers. The Z-Plus is in a studio cabinet.
The MAZ has the G12H30 and the Ghia has a Vintage 30. Both of these are in full size cabinets.
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Post by DRZ on Jun 7, 2019 2:14:39 GMT -7
OK my friend a couple of thoughts on your issue. One if you can't disern the volume difference between a 100dB Celestion Blue and 97dB Z -12 , then your volume sensitivity isn't too keen. Don't feel bad most of us musicians have failing volume sensitivity from years of R-n-R, that's one thing.
The second is the Master volume on the Z Plus is very different from the MAZ 18. The Z Plus is a single ended output amp so the Master Volume is just a simple Output Tube driver amp. Whereas the MAZ 18 is a more complex Phase Inverter Output tube driver, so setting them at 12 o'clock will yield a different drive voltage. Try Maxing the Masters then compare you will hear a closer comparison.
Third the the full sized 1X12 cab will be more dispersed and louder than the more direct smaller Studio cab. You can experiment your self by plugging the Z Plus chassis into the full size 1x12 cab , say the V-30 loaded one for the most contrast.
Lastly instead of just having your tech buddy test the 6V6's, you should have him measure the full output of the complete Z Plus amp. I'm sure you will find it at or very close to 15 watts, which is factory stock.
Z
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savoy
New Member
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Post by savoy on Jun 7, 2019 8:21:30 GMT -7
I have a ZPlus with the blue alnico. I run it plus another Z cab in parallel in 4 ohm. Sounds very open. I agree with the person who said the master works differently on this amp. Once you find that sweet spot it’s killer. Plenty loud
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Post by rossman on Jun 7, 2019 8:27:20 GMT -7
Thank you Doc and everyone else for the replies and suggestions. I understand that it is not as loud as the MAZ and Ghia, and that was expected and I am OK with it. Again, I was not complaining, just trying to make sure nothing was wrong with the amp since I did not have the opportunity to play a Z-Plus to compare it to my other Z amps before purchasing.
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jmg
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Post by jmg on Jun 7, 2019 15:08:55 GMT -7
I had the pleasure of trying both the Studio and Lite. Doc is right, the Lite sounds noticeably bigger. I'm not sure it's pure volume, more like depth and filling the room.
I said this before, but if I had to use a (somewhat imperfect) analogy, the Studio is more like a Princeton with a 12 inch speaker, and the Lite a bit more like a Deluxe.
I'm not so sure there's something wrong with your ears. That can't be assumed and Doc is a bit out of line, IMHO, to suggest you have a hearing problem. As I understand it the DB rating of a speaker isn't the end all, be all, when it comes to volume. As mentioned before, cab is as big an issue for the perception of volume. Heck, I've swapped power tubes and recs in other combos I've owned over the years, and swore I heard a volume difference more than going from a 97db speaker to a 100db speaker.
You have a great gigging amp in the Maz and a great practice amp in the Ghia. I suspect you'll find the Plus falls somewhere between those two when all is said and done. Maybe it should be your recording amp and small gig amp? I don't gig. Just a jam here and there. So I do hope all your Dr. Z tools bring you joy.
Good luck! These are great amps!
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Post by DRZ on Jun 7, 2019 15:26:18 GMT -7
I had the pleasure of trying both the Studio and Lite. Doc is right, the Lite sounds noticeably bigger. I'm not sure it's pure volume, more like depth and filling the room. I said this before, but if I had to use a (somewhat imperfect) analogy, the Studio is more like a Princeton with a 12 inch speaker, and the Lite a bit more like a Deluxe. I'm not so sure there's something wrong with your ears. That can't be assumed and Doc is a bit out of line, IMHO, to suggest you have a hearing problem. As I understand it the DB rating of a speaker isn't the end all, be all, when it comes to volume. As mentioned before, cab is as big an issue for the perception of volume. Heck, I've swapped power tubes and recs in other combos I've owned over the years, and swore I heard a volume difference more than going from a 97db speaker to a 100db speaker. You have a great gigging amp in the Maz and a great practice amp in the Ghia. I suspect you'll find the Plus falls somewhere between those two when all is said and done. Maybe it should be your recording amp and small gig amp? I don't gig. Just a jam here and there. So I do hope all your Dr. Z tools bring you joy. Good luck! These are great amps! No I'm not out of line, a 3dB increase is equal to double the wattage, that is a fact.
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jmg
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Post by jmg on Jun 7, 2019 15:32:43 GMT -7
I had the pleasure of trying both the Studio and Lite. Doc is right, the Lite sounds noticeably bigger. I'm not sure it's pure volume, more like depth and filling the room. I said this before, but if I had to use a (somewhat imperfect) analogy, the Studio is more like a Princeton with a 12 inch speaker, and the Lite a bit more like a Deluxe. I'm not so sure there's something wrong with your ears. That can't be assumed and Doc is a bit out of line, IMHO, to suggest you have a hearing problem. As I understand it the DB rating of a speaker isn't the end all, be all, when it comes to volume. As mentioned before, cab is as big an issue for the perception of volume. Heck, I've swapped power tubes and recs in other combos I've owned over the years, and swore I heard a volume difference more than going from a 97db speaker to a 100db speaker. You have a great gigging amp in the Maz and a great practice amp in the Ghia. I suspect you'll find the Plus falls somewhere between those two when all is said and done. Maybe it should be your recording amp and small gig amp? I don't gig. Just a jam here and there. So I do hope all your Dr. Z tools bring you joy. Good luck! These are great amps! No I'm not out of line, a 3dB increase is equal to double the wattage, that is a fact. ----------- Hmm. But one is a measure of volume and the other a measure of power. Not sure I understand that reasoning at all, Doc. I'm no expert, just a wannabe woodshedder. But I've had 15 Watt amps that sound louder than 30 Watt amps. Then again, maybe I have tinnitus too. You are the Doc, so I suppose you could diagnose that over the internets. ; )
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Post by buckeye on Jun 7, 2019 16:51:12 GMT -7
Doc stated above that the Z speaker is rated at 97 db. The specs listed on the Z website state that the Z-12 Is rated at 99 db and the Z-10 is rated at 97 db. Did I miss something?
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on Jun 7, 2019 18:16:55 GMT -7
Oh, Doc is most certainly correct. Double the wattage in an amp produces 3db increase in volume - that is a mathematical fact. To double the volume you need to increase power (wattage) by a factor of 10. So a 100w amp has twice the volume (in dB) as a 10w amp. It’s also true that, as a standard for the 90th percentile human, a 3db change in volume is the smallest increment the human ear can detect (yes, some folks can perceive 2db or even 1db, just like some can hear tones above 16khz). “Loudness” is different and depends on frequency, level, and other factors. Great explanation here: www.offbeatband.com/2009/08/the-difference-between-gain-volume-level-and-loudness/
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jmg
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Post by jmg on Jun 7, 2019 19:45:04 GMT -7
This is a really informative thread. Thanks all. Seriously.
Doc, I'm not trying to be a jerk on your own site. I just noticed that this poster bought three of your fine amps (which are more than worth the money, but not cheap either) and raised a pretty mild concern with one. I'm certainly not above taking pride in my own work, but I felt like attributing part of his concerns to hearing loss was a bit much.
I love my Z Plus and the quality of the build. I'm sure you can see that from other threads and the praise I gave the amp in this very thread.
I'm sure things will work out for the poster because the amp is a killer one.
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Post by DRZ on Jun 7, 2019 20:14:22 GMT -7
This is a really informative thread. Thanks all. Seriously. Doc, I'm not trying to be a jerk on your own site. I just noticed that this poster bought three of your fine amps (which are more than worth the money, but not cheap either) and raised a pretty mild concern with one. I'm certainly not above taking pride in my own work, but I felt like attributing part of his concerns to hearing loss was a bit much. I love my Z Plus and the quality of the build. I'm sure you can see that from other threads and the praise I gave the amp in this very thread. I'm sure things will work out for the poster because the amp is a killer one. I'm somewhat confused by your interpretation of my response to rossman . My point to him was the Master volume circuits are very different between the two amps, and you can not compare the over output volume by placing them at the same setting, and that testing the tubes doesn't reflect the output power of the amp there in. My comment about him not being able to discern a volume difference between the Z - 12 and a Celestion Blue surprised me, and I questioned it, I wasn't out of line , or insulting rossman , or diagnosing some perceived health problem online, just stating a fact, and mentioned my thoughts about the amp setting and overall volume.
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savoy
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Post by savoy on Jun 7, 2019 20:36:52 GMT -7
No I'm not out of line, a 3dB increase is equal to double the wattage, that is a fact. ----------- Hmm. But one is a measure of volume and the other a measure of power. Not sure I understand that reasoning at all, Doc. I'm no expert, just a wannabe woodshedder. But I've had 15 Watt amps that sound louder than 30 Watt amps. Then again, maybe I have tinnitus too. You are the Doc, so I suppose you could diagnose that over the internets. ; ) I’ve got the ZPlus but not sure which model I’m playing. Came with the Alnico Blue. Has such charecter and harmonic chime. Absolutely love it. What’s the easiest way to tell between the two models?
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jmg
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Post by jmg on Jun 7, 2019 21:11:00 GMT -7
I guess I misinterpreted this part of your response, Doc:
"One if you can't disern the volume difference between a 100dB Celestion Blue and 97dB Z -12 , then your volume sensitivity isn't too keen. Don't feel bad most of us musicians have failing volume sensitivity from years of R-n-R, that's one thing."
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Post by buckeye on Jun 8, 2019 4:25:06 GMT -7
I sold my Maz 18 NR a while back to make room for a Z-Plus. I didn't have the luxury of being able to compare the 2 side by side but to my old ears the Plus volume is comparable to the Maz with the Brakelite on 2. I do have hearing loss and tinnitus from years of construction work and RnR so my opinion is entirely subjective. I play in a classic rock cover band where 95% of our gigs are in 200 people or less sized venues. I do mike through the PA and usually have the Plus In half power mode. Plenty of volume. On a side note, I'm still confused about Docs reference to the Z speaker rated at 97 db's when the website says it's 99 db's. Can anyone shed some light on that?
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Post by DRZ on Jun 8, 2019 6:08:18 GMT -7
I sold my Maz 18 NR a while back to make room for a Z-Plus. I didn't have the luxury of being able to compare the 2 side by side but to my old ears the Plus volume is comparable to the Maz with the Brakelite on 2. I do have hearing loss and tinnitus from years of construction work and RnR so my opinion is entirely subjective. I play in a classic rock cover band where 95% of our gigs are in 200 people or less sized venues. I do mike through the PA and usually have the Plus In half power mode. Plenty of volume. On a side note, I'm still confused about Docs reference to the Z speaker rated at 97 db's when the website says it's 99 db's. Can anyone shed some light on that? My bad the Z12 has a SPL of 98.8 dB , I confused it With the Z 10 which is 97 dB
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Post by rossman on Jun 8, 2019 7:40:17 GMT -7
I sold my Maz 18 NR a while back to make room for a Z-Plus. I didn't have the luxury of being able to compare the 2 side by side but to my old ears the Plus volume is comparable to the Maz with the Brakelite on 2. I do have hearing loss and tinnitus from years of construction work and RnR so my opinion is entirely subjective. I play in a classic rock cover band where 95% of our gigs are in 200 people or less sized venues. I do mike through the PA and usually have the Plus In half power mode. Plenty of volume. On a side note, I'm still confused about Docs reference to the Z speaker rated at 97 db's when the website says it's 99 db's. Can anyone shed some light on that? Perhaps I could have been more specific with my original post. This description of a MAZ with the Brakelite on 2 is fairly accurate of the volume of my Z-Plus with the C Blue in it compared to my MAZ. Again, not complaining, it is a great amp, I just wasn't sure what to expect. When I get home I will try some of the tests with the master volume as Doc suggested and compare the two amps. Thanks again for all the replies!
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jmg
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Posts: 53
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Post by jmg on Jun 8, 2019 9:36:19 GMT -7
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Post by daddyelmis (Greg) on Jun 8, 2019 10:01:32 GMT -7
I’ve got the ZPlus but not sure which model I’m playing. Came with the Alnico Blue. Has such charecter and harmonic chime. Absolutely love it. What’s the easiest way to tell between the two models? There’s only one “model” of the ZPlus. You can get it in the studio or lite cab, and with a variety of speaker options, but the amp itself is the the same. The Blue is an upcharge over the stock Z12 or Creamback. Humbucker carries them all and you can see the differences in the cabs www.humbuckermusic.com/collections/dr-z-z-plus
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savoy
New Member
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Post by savoy on Jun 8, 2019 14:27:44 GMT -7
I’ve got the ZPlus but not sure which model I’m playing. Came with the Alnico Blue. Has such charecter and harmonic chime. Absolutely love it. What’s the easiest way to tell between the two models? There’s only one “model” of the ZPlus. You can get it in the studio or lite cab, and with a variety of speaker options, but the amp itself is the the same. The Blue is an upcharge over the stock Z12 or Creamback. Humbucker carries them all and you can see the differences in the cabs www.humbuckermusic.com/collections/dr-z-z-plus[/quotexbnb Figured it out. The back of the ZPlus Lite has a slotted opening at the base. The Studio does not. Thanks
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Post by perryr on Jun 8, 2019 18:46:18 GMT -7
Studio doesn’t have the tolex front panel around the control panel, and ‘Z’ logo is located on the grill cloth.
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savoy
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Post by savoy on Jun 8, 2019 19:01:36 GMT -7
Studio doesn’t have the tolex front panel around the control panel, and ‘Z’ logo is located on the grill cloth. Sure nuff. Right you are
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savoy
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Post by savoy on Jun 8, 2019 19:02:35 GMT -7
Studio doesn’t have the tolex front panel around the control panel, and ‘Z’ logo is located on the grill cloth. Sure nuff. Right you are
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jmg
Junior Member
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Post by jmg on Jun 8, 2019 19:33:29 GMT -7
Kinda wish I had a red tolex one. But that's my only wish. Great amp.
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savoy
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Post by savoy on Jun 8, 2019 20:23:24 GMT -7
Kinda wish I had a red tolex one. But that's my only wish. Great amp. Shows you how observant I’m not. By the way, I’m running the speakers in series, 16 ohm output. I was wrong earlier
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